Necris vs Axon Vehicles in WAR-Avalanche

[slik_sh00ter]

As we all know, Avalanche, being one of "the big four" maps that are played often, have Axon vs. Necris vehicles.

It seems to me that many people think that the Necris vehicles are "better" than the Axon vehicles in Avalanche.
I'm wondering if it's the number of vehicles on the map (Necris have 4 Vipers, Axon have 2 Manta's) or something else.

I'm curious to know why this is thought and also because I'm building a map that has an Axon vs Necris setup, and I want to make the map as fair as possible.

[Azimuth0001]

Starting base comparisons:
Nemesis>Hellbender for long range...Avalanche is large.
Nightshade=Hellbender, but they have such different ways of playing that it's hard to directly compare.
Vipers get the edge over the mantas because of the self destruct, otherwise manta would win for being more maneuverable.
Prime Node:
Scorpion>Viper, but like you said, the numbers turn the map to vipers favor
Side nodes:
Tank>Darkwalker...IMO, some who are better in the DW might say otherwise, but my aim sucks.

My conclusion:
loose 1 Viper from prime node, add one scorpion to the starting base, and add a scavenger to the DW node to make Avalanche even.

Final thoughts:
The Nemesis (IMO) matches closer to the tank then the Bender, but not well. Maybe 1 Nemi and a scavenger=1tank...or...1 bender and a manta = 1 Nemi.
Scavenger is almost useless, however I have seen a few people who know how to use them well.

[oldkawman1]

Viper = Win! or Scorpion=Win!

It all depends on the drivers.

[Veggie_D]

It is tempting to judge balance by valuing vehicles like you would chess pieces, then summing the values and comparing — but this is an oversimplification, and a mistake.

Avalanche is a good example of this, as the map is in fact far more balanced than it first appears. By the "valuation" metric, the Necris side does appear to have the upper hand — (Nemesis, Nightshade, Viper ×6) vs (Bender ×2, Manta ×2, Scorpion ×2) — that's a clearly apparent advantage in numbers, speed, and taxiing.

The key to the balance, however, is the Scorpions: when driven by smart players who use them defensively in a forward position at Center, in a medium-full server the Axon side will, on average, have an easy time keeping at least one of the Vipers hijacked throughout the game. With one stolen Viper the balance of power is shifted considerably; if two or more are stolen, and Axon has reasonably skilled and versatile players, the Necris side is likely in serious trouble.

(Axon teammates bearing Link guns would do well to value their Scorpions as highly as a Goliath or Darkwalker ... and likewise a savvy Nightshade driver could do a lot worse than beelining for Enemy Prime and planting an EMP right between the parked Scorpions.)



So the simple answer is that I don't think there's a simple answer. The vehicle balance will depend greatly on the character of your map, its scale, terrain features, etc. — and that means a fair bit of experimentation and delicate trial-and-error. The good news is you have a lot of creative options available.

Very cool you're tackling a new map =)

[geronaho]

Avalanche is not a symmetrical map. The map itself fails not the vehicles.

Stand at the steps. shoot core. vote floodgate. gg

[slik_sh00ter]

Thank you all for your inputs. It seems like there are a variety of factors to consider. I will consider these factors as I build my map.

[Corrupt]

I find some Necrids vehicles a bit overpower mainly because they a have a longer fire reach. If you want to make it even as close as possible you can remove one Bender and add SPMA, with the Necris remove one viper and add another scavenger, in Avalanche map.
As for Axon vs Necris on a map, One Levi, One Scorpion and One Bender for the main reactor, for the rest of the power nodes you can add a mix of one scorpion and one manta. For the Necris main power core, 2 DW's, One Nemesis, two Vipers and One scavenger and the other power node, one viper and one scavenger. For a middle Power node one bender and one nemesis.

[Cybis]

First, lets sum up what each side has:

Axon:
- 2 mantas
- 2 hellbenders
- 2 scorpions
- easy access to dark walker

Necris:
- 6 vipers
- nightshade
- nemesis
- easy access to tank

Here are the reasons why I think Necris side usually wins:

- It only takes one or two newbies on the Axon side, who think going kamikaze on the center node is a good idea, to completely undermine the whole team. Scorpions should *not* be used to kamikaze unless its to kill the tank.

- Vipers are basically designed to be disposable - they respawn fast, you get lots of them, and you can kamikaze them when you're done. It doesn't matter all that much that they're destroyed quickly. This makes them very newbie friendly. No other vehicles have this benefit.

- Tank >> Dark Walker (although my opinion is biased on this one; I love tanks!).

- Avalanche is designed more for long-range combat, where the nemesis really shines. Hell benders are a lot more awkward to use (they're only really used for spamming sky mines at center, which helps a little but not much). Very few players can wield a hell bender as well as Bubble Damage can.

- Since the Necris side almost always has a viper available somewhere, they're always ready to taxi an orb. Axon side just has far fewer opportunities to taxi (especially if players take a manta for other purposes - e.g., like going to kill a tank or nemesis).


Since both sides have equal access to the scavengers, I don't think they affect the balance. Furthermore, I didn't mention the nightshade because, on most nights, the shade driver is fairly mediocre. I find that an enemy nightshade can usually be ignored because of this. I'll readily admit, however, that a great shade driver can almost guarantee a win for their team.

I'm not sure how I would rebalance the teams. Giving the Axon side two more scorpions, which would spawn at their base, might work, or it might make them overpowered. It's really hard to say.

[Veggie_D]

That is true, playing the Axon side on Avalanche does require a bit more team discipline, especially with Scorpion-defense and Manta-taxiing ... so it's definitely less noob-tolerant than the Necris side, and yes, in day-to-day pub play that's often a problem.

Stocked with decent players, however, I think the map is fairly balanced. It may even be slightly advantageous for the Axon side as-is, no vehicles added: all it takes is some well-positioned Scorp-spam and a couple of not-quite-dead Vipers — which a good team will be ready and waiting to snatch up and keep for as long as possible — and the field starts to slant Axon's way.

So an important question might be: should the author of an asymmetric map design creatively for the benefit of skilled teams, or design defensively to minimize imbalance for bad teams? I'm not sure there's a right answer ... that's probably just something a mapper gets to decide for oneself.



It is interesting to reflect on and appreciate how delicate the whole "game-balance" thing is. For example, suppose you were to just barely bump up the damage of the Scorpion's weapon, and/or nudge the Viper's vehicle/driver damage multipliers, such that the vehicle would blow up before its 100hp driver were killed and ejected. Even that slightest of tweaks would completely upset the balance of the entire map.

[slik_sh00ter]

I agree that taxiing has a big influence on the performance of the team. If Necris steals one (or both) of Axon's Manta's, it could spell disaster for Axon. I think the nightshade's EMP has a great influence on the stealing of vehicles.

[Veggie_D]

Necris strategy if Polish is Axon:

1. Send Nightshade to EMP the other Manta spawn.
2. Wait.
3. gg

[slik_sh00ter]

Without Manta's, Axon (and Polish) can't taxi! Automatic win.