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    #46
    @At everyone who plays by a set of arbitrary, self imposed rules

    From the book Playing to Win:

    "The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win."

    -Sirlin

    Jomi is of course correct. There is only one thing necessary to make a tactic valid. It needs to help you win the game. If one particular tactic is so powerful that it can not be defeated regardless of skill then guess what? Your playing an unbalanced low skill game. Play something else.

    The tactic in question here is spawn killing. Let's ask a few basic questions:

    Q. Can spawn killing help you win a game?
    A. Yes. It can temporarily keep your opponent(s) out of play while your team accomplishes its goals.

    Q. Will spawn killing alone win you a game regardless of skill?
    A. No. A lesser/equal skilled player/team will be unable to spawn kill a higher/equal skilled player/team for a significant amount of time on anything resembling a balanced map. During the coarse of a game the spawn killing between the two teams should balance out if the teams are even or tip towards the better team according to skill differential.

    Q. Is spawn killing always a valid tactic?
    A. No. Some maps and/or game types do not lend themselves to spawn killing. When playing these maps/game types a good player will not spawn kill as it is a waste of time. Bad players may try, but they most likely won't be too effective at it, as they are bad. On top of that it will cause them to lose more games than not. If those bad players stick around and get better then they will stop spawn killing when it is not effective. In this way a bad tactic pretty much polices itself.

    Q. When playing in a competitive game (tournament or otherwise) should you spawn kill?
    A. If it helps you win the game yes. A team that chooses to not use a winning tactic will almost always lose (deservedly so).

    Q. When playing a non competitive game should you spawn kill?
    A. If you are on the higher skilled team and are going to win regardless you might want to avoid spawn killing so that the other team gets a chance to play. If however you are on a losing team and spawn killing could help you win the game or make it closer, then by all means do it. Following those guidelines should make the game more interesting/fun for everyone involved.

    Q. Is there a downside to not spawn killing in non competitive games?
    A. Yes. When you do decide to play a competitive game you will be unable to spawn if the other team decides to spawn kill you as you will not have practiced it. Part of playing non competitive games is practice. You need to practice both using and defeating various tactics so you know how to do it when it matters.

    So there you have it. Spawn killing is part of the game, it can be effective, so therefor it can be a valid tactic. If you think its cheap and decide not to use it then you are a scrub. Jomi and myself are competitive players. We play the game to win and we have fun doing it. If you don't play to win then why play UT3?

    On a side note it's nice to see that I agree with Jomi on at least one aspect of UT3

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by jomi294 View Post
      If you can get your tank outside an enemy base for an entire game, either you are really good, or the other team is actually made up of blind chimpanzees.
      It's both.

      As much as it pains me to say it again, Eux is really good in the tank and is the cause of constant headaches in downtown on pugs. The best tactic against him is to spend more time and effort at the actual tank node and prevent him from getting it in the first place.

      The majority of players are blind chimpanzees! Ok that's maybe a little harsh. But the skill level of a lot of players is poop.
      For example, I played BTFA on a US server with 130 ping and landed second place on the winning team, only a few points behind the guy in first. There was guys with 30ping who just flailed their stingers around. Heck, I don't think I saw more than 4/14 players even attempt combos. And these are DM players! Where you'd expect the fragging skill level to be higher than warfare.

      And as I've said before in other threads, I'm not saying I'm some kind of pro. I'm sure if I was to duel with some one like Hypno I'd be beaten senseless 0-100 eznp. But the skill level on warservers does leave something to be desired now a days. o:

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by Random54 View Post
        Q. When playing a non competitive game should you spawn kill?
        A. If you are on the higher skilled team and are going to win regardless you might want to avoid spawn killing so that the other team gets a chance to play. If however you are on a losing team and spawn killing could help you win the game or make it closer, then by all means do it. Following those guidelines should make the game more interesting/fun for everyone involved.
        And there in is the problem.

        Also this guide was written for games in general, not ut3 where you can attack the enemy spawn points from the other side of the map (torlan). And don't say use manta's to take them out. Idiots like to take mantas and fly them into avrils before players with any brains can possibly get the chance.
        Oh and don't say lock onto it's camera with an avril, any half decent player will ditch the camera and put up a new one.

        I use to spend whole **** games just killing SPMA's. zzzzzzz.

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by Random54 View Post
          @At everyone who plays by a set of arbitrary, self imposed rules

          From the book Playing to Win:

          You haven't read your book very clearly:

          The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics.
          I think anyone who's played the 32 slot titan pubs on certain maps will agree that's it's completely dominated by spawnkilling that makes it impossible to play. Spawnkilling (done correctly) is a game-breaking tactic that has no counter. 'Playing to Win' is all about overpowered tactics (the tank on dt prime for example) but these tactics still have ways of being countered.


          Q. Will spawn killing alone win you a game regardless of skill?
          A. No. A lesser/equal skilled player/team will be unable to spawn kill a higher/equal skilled player/team for a significant amount of time on anything resembling a balanced map. During the coarse of a game the spawn killing between the two teams should balance out if the teams are even or tip towards the better team according to skill differential.
          If you have 3 titans groundstomping your base you have 0% chance of killing them no matter what your skill is.

          Like I said before if you feel like you need to spawnkill then the tactical depth of your game must be very low. - If you doubt this then join the IRC Quakenet: mpukut3.warfare channel and we'll show you how non-retards play.

          Comment


            #50
            Well If there's no camping at all what are you going to do with the sniper i mean its not really that great for close range combat.

            I'm not a camper i only camp on sniper servers

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by -=UT_L3G3ND=- View Post
              Well If there's no camping at all what are you going to do with the sniper i mean its not really that great for close range combat.

              I'm not a camper i only camp on sniper servers
              /facepalm

              o_o I... just... ugh. Words escape me.

              Thank goodness for youtube

              **** I died a lot in that match...

              Comment


                #52
                @ -=UT_L3G3ND=-
                The Sniper Rifle is made to kill someone while being on distance. Personally I jump in vCTF matches with my sniper and kill a lot of players without camping!
                My personal opinion towards camping on normal servers (= non-sniper servers): It's lame and won't make you better. I can kill someone with this weapon without sitting in a dark corner of a map. When you practise you become better (and experience from Unreal UT99 and UT2k3/4 can be very useful as well). I've seen a lot of campers/snipers since I got this game. I can kill most of them by shooting them with a sniper while dodging around and getting closer to them to have a better chance to kill them. In most cases even the first shot is a headshot. In other cases I need 2 or 3 shots to kill them when they behave like skilled players and dodge.
                But most snipers don't. They're just crouching behind a corner waiting for a possible victim.

                About the spawnkilling discussion: There are already 2 threads about this (or even more). Instead of talking about that in this thread we should continue the discussion in one of the other threads. This thread is about tips for newcomers (read the title). Sure it has of course somehow to do with this topic as well but we went too OT with talking about this stupid "scrubs"-theory which I just can't support -those people aren't worse than others just because of these rules. I'm one of them and when I take a look at the scoreboard from time to time while playing I have in most cases a better score than people who play "unfair"!.

                Oh, and btw:
                Q. When playing a non competitive game should you spawn kill?
                A. If you are on the higher skilled team and are going to win regardless you might want to avoid spawn killing so that the other team gets a chance to play. If however you are on a losing team and spawn killing could help you win the game or make it closer, then by all means do it. Following those guidelines should make the game more interesting/fun for everyone involved.
                WTF!? "[...]should make the game more interesting/fun for everyone involved"? I've never seen a "spawnkilling-victim" which thought that this game was fun.

                And if you didn't notice: This book seems to have rules/guidelines as well! So everybody is a scrub then because he/she doesn't spawnkill when he's/she's winning because the book says: "If you win, don't spawnkill!"
                And btw this book is too general. UT is way more complex than these "mainstream games".
                My conclusion about this book, its rules/guidelines and this "scrubs"-theory: Mostly nonesense!!


                This is my personal opinion (you don't have to support this) and now please continue the spawnkilling discussion in this thread if you are not going to post improvements for the list. Thank you

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by 5uxeu5 View Post
                  I think anyone who's played the 32 slot titan pubs on certain maps will agree that's it's completely dominated by spawnkilling that makes it impossible to play. Spawnkilling (done correctly) is a game-breaking tactic that has no counter. 'Playing to Win' is all about overpowered tactics (the tank on dt prime for example) but these tactics still have ways of being countered.
                  I agree. Anyone who has also stepped into the 50v50 Speed LowGrav Redeemer-only, on certain maps like DM-Morbias arena, will also testify it's completely dominated by the non-counterable spawn-killing tactic.

                  Still waiting on your valuable list of allowed tactics/weapons. It will serve greatly to this thread, and I'm looking forward to your insight on this very, very complex game!

                  I'm also slightly interested in your weekly UT3 lectures @ this IRC channel, maybe I'll give them a shot!

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by jomi294 View Post
                    I agree. Anyone who has also stepped into the 50v50 Speed LowGrav Redeemer-only, on certain maps like DM-Morbias arena, will also testify it's completely dominated by the non-counterable spawn-killing tactic.

                    Still waiting on your valuable list of allowed tactics/weapons. It will serve greatly to this thread, and I'm looking forward to your insight on this very, very complex game!

                    I'm also slightly interested in your weekly UT3 lectures @ this IRC channel, maybe I'll give them a shot!
                    Don't be a jackass. Titan is a common mutator while there are no servers running the mutators and player slots you specified. You comparing the two is ridiculous at best.

                    I could open editor, take a screenshot of downtown or torlan's spawn points, then draw where you could place titans and draw a radius indicating their stomp range, keeping in mind the stomp knockdown works on players who have spawn protection. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't take more than 3 titans to cover all spawn points on Torlan for example. Add one more to prime node and then you have a situation where no one can spawn even if you have the prime node.

                    But I don't see the point as the stupid argument "you're just a n00b" or "play on another server" will pop up again. It'd be like arguing with a brick wall.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Azure, I replied in the thread that I started and that Sly just pointed out:
                      http://forums.epicgames.com/showthre...739299&page=10

                      Comment


                        #56
                        If a game-type/map can be completely dominated by a single tactic and there is no counter to that tactic then it is not a balanced game-type/map. If the tactic is so easy to accomplish that any newb can do it then the game-type/map is not only unbalanced but a newb game-type/map.

                        Personally I like games where skill is required to win. That's why I stay away from newb maps/game-types.

                        When TDM players play pugs they don't play on unbalanced maps like morbias or heatray. They play on either custom maps or the few balanced map the game came with (Deck, Defiance, Diesel, Shang). When 1v1 players duel, they don't do it on biohazard. They do it on custom maps or balanced maps like deck and sent. Besides the maps, competitive players also use a mutator called UTComp that balances elements of game play. It allows you to armor stack (pick up armor you already have) and removes amp from duels.

                        Dueling the way epic gave it to use was broken. We play a fixed version. We didn't come up with arbitrary rules like: don't grab armor if your opponent already has it, or don't use amp. That's because these rules can be violated either intentionally or purposely.

                        I suggest you follow our lead and fix your game type or play better maps. Stop whining that people aren't following your rules. Because, in the end, they are just your rules, not some one elses, and certainly not the games.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by azurescorch View Post
                          But I don't see the point as the stupid argument "you're just a n00b" or "play on another server" will pop up again. It'd be like arguing with a brick wall.
                          No of course not. Let's keep discussing this. It now seems we've narrowed down the problem even further. The problem seems to be a combination of: stacked teams —sometimes caused by poorly coded mutators as Sly pointed out—, high slot count Warfare/VCTF servers, and the Titan mutator. So the problem is in fact not the specific tactic of spawn-killing.

                          So here's my tip for all the players out there. Spawn-kill away if you are able to, unless otherwise specified by the server rules or administrator, obviously.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by 5uxeu5
                            Like I said before if you feel like you need to spawnkill then the tactical depth of your game must be very low. - If you doubt this then join the IRC Quakenet: mpukut3.warfare channel and we'll show you how non-retards play.
                            The 2 most popular Greed maps are Lost Cause (CTF - indoors) and Stranded (outside with powerful vehicles). If you complain about sk or camping the bender up there on the objective, I suggest you to free HD space for porn.

                            Titan sk can obviously get pretty brutal on the CTF map, but often in Greed is more than just useful, sk at the base can even be THE recommended tactic. Clear the way for scoring and provide skulls for collectors

                            What can I do? Become Titan and avoid exposing to make it last. Prevention, concentration, team communication so that I have a few secs to adapt. With some knowledge in advance, a good player can stop an handful of Titans and plenty of carriers. That's on the Official Greed public server, full of retards that don't join your IRC channel and therefore don't know how to play

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by 5uxeu5 View Post
                              If you really feel that it's "necessary" for you to spawnkill I suggest you improve your game and learn real tactics from better players.
                              He started out playing Carzzz then went to 1v1/TDM/CTF and managed to become one of the best players in NA. All of those 1v1 videos that fuzz has stickied at the top of the forum are all from him, so I don't think there's a player left who could teach hotcake anything.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by jomi294 View Post
                                Spawn-kill away if you are able to, unless otherwise specified by the server rules or administrator, obviously.
                                as i recall, you were really good at this......and quite entertaining to spec doing this too

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