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    #91
    Originally posted by Taffy View Post
    You're talking a rehash of old games. It would be a miserable failure. I know I wouldn't buy it.
    What if it were just as much fun or more fun than the original UT but with a better user interface and much improved online multiplayer server browser features? What if thousands of people were playing it online 24/7? You wouldn't want to buy it as a matter of principle because the game play would feel like that of the original?

    Note that for the majority of people who would be gaming at the time, a great many of whom will have never heard of Unreal Tournament, it would be new to them.

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      #92
      Originally posted by M^vL View Post
      If I was Epic, I certainly would have you on the project Bersy if not outright leading the project. Since it looks highly unlikely there will be a "project", we're on our own and it seems to be that's what Tim Sweeney is hoping for anyway.
      I read Bersy's post and didn't see anything particularly profound in it. It reminded me of a speech where someone states broad principles that most people could agree with but few specifics other than to get rid of the time-tested and gamer-approved shock rifle and flak cannon.

      Comment


        #93
        I also wrote a speech a few days ago, and even I see now that some of the items are only relevant to me or are less important that I think, I leave the main ideas. Note though that I revised it and added a few thing to the quoted text

        In my perspective, besides items not related with the core gameplay, like UI, Gamespy, bugs, hardware requirements, etc... there's something else that damaged UT3: trying to transform UT into a "serious fps". Somehow they considered that UT3 should adapt to the new fps trend, so they made it lose some of it's identity. There are already too many uninspired, serious, strictly pwnage, fatalistic games out there. It's not a matter of PC vs Console, or UT vs UT2004, it's a matter of current PC games vs PC games of 10 years go. UT fans got attracted by BOTH the shooter AND the fresh sci-fi or fantasy ambience, that's what created nostalgia.

        Flak just announced that gog.com has the older Unreals on sale. I went there and found the shooters that I bought back then. UT grew on me, but I also liked the other sci-fi and fantasy action games a lot. For me, it's not a matter that UT was the best or golden release of the series, it's that the time of it's release was the golden era of PC gaming either. PC fps were not _only_ hardcore, competitive or realistic fps the way you see it today. Crazy stuff, pleasant and uncluttered graphics, laid back games weren't not only for consoles, it was part of PC gaming too!

        Based on the above and after playing UT again for a while, I see it as a game suitable for competiion, for casual players, for kids and young teens, sci-fi lovers, old school gamers (2D games or other systems). It was _pleasant_ for everyone. But with UT3, the demographics became too narrow:

        * Even if competitive oriented, it had serious flaws: hardware requirements, input lag and mouse movement, lack of customization, lack of features that one can find on UTComp, problematic admin support, etc.... Therefore the target audience (people that are one or more of: UT fan, competition oriented, PC gamer, 17 to ~25-30 years old) didn't pick it up.
        * It's not suitable for kids anymore, it's rated M. Their parents will not play the game either
        * Aesthetics:
        • - This may look nitpicking, but I was surprised to see it as being important: the game cover is not attractive. I know this for sure, because I watched some random people on retail stores, and I occasionally talked with them. The game was ignored or even considered ugly, and they moved on to another game!
          - The UI was annoying to navigate, well know that already. Then you may consider it looked great, but on release it was just plain ugly. It's much better now on everything

        * Aesthetics (just graphics). The problem is that most gamers only consider "Defaults" and "Maxed Out". They may be popular on today's games, but disappointing for UT2004 players, and even some UT fans. I suspect that most old school gamers (e.g. PC DOS, Amiga, old consoles) can't stand them either. It didn't match the promotional screenshots. I've proved again and again that there were ways to make the game look great for everyone if the items below were customizable or at least with other default settings:
        • - Lack of color.
          - Bloom and DoF. Created an extra effort on your eyes. I suspect the latter led to extra unconscient effort, always trying to focus on something that is rendered blurred.
          - I need to mention the one that would kill the game for me: hit effects. Nice for extra awareness that someone is being hit, but not inside a tank. Overdone!
          - Great graphics, but excessive detail and clutter. It was a labour of love, but turned against them and the players.


        * Some teens, the realistic or the serious gamers: some grew accostumed to such games and I find it hard to believe that they would migrate en masse to a game that is fast paced, crazy weapons and has an invisible vehicle ****ting spiders.

        * The campaign and war storyline was a tad lame or doesn't fit a tournament. Single player games ARE popular and a good storyline can sell games, Bioshock is the well known example. The coop campaign wasn't attactive, so everyone went online to be murdered.


        Then there are 5 categories of people that I have to mention:
        - UT2004: when they started, they didn't defend shield guns, dodge jumps, hitscan, this model size, or unrealistic and agile movement, did they? They just considered it fun. I suspect that UT2004 players don't understand the problem or why it doesn't feel right, and then UT ones criticize them for complaining. It's not a matter of "dodge-jump" and being ground, while ranting about the solutions, people can't focus on the problem: it's lack of mobility and freedom!!

        - Custom content lovers couldn't really play online until the 3rd patch or so. It's poorly handled and very large for some peoples connections. Only now there are solutions to mitigate it, like USucc and sometimes my utility. Only ONS2 make the game suitable for UT2004 players. There's also the problem that extra content isn't played online unless it's officially released by Epic, like Titan, UT2004-ECE or some content of UT-GOTY.

        - Sci-fi, unrealistic adepts: I believe that THIS is what some UT players really miss actually, when they say that the game doesn't feel right! Graphics, even some movement components, SP campaign (yes, UT players would have liked a good Unreal style SP!), etc... are influenced by stereotypes, realism, and whatever more. The Unrealistic spirit was hidden, reduced, crippled. UT and UT2004 still had that spirit from 10 years ago.

        - Laid back gamers: It's not newbie friendly, the Orb leads to trash talk within the team and you are punished for trying to help and do your best, the learning curve is unfair so them become desolated and quit instead of eager to improve. New players are eaten alive by UT'ers and you didn't have this back then where everyone started at the same time. All this was where Titan and the cooperative friendly Greed really helped, even if some are shortsighted to understand.

        - The ones that support gamers: server admins didn't have proper software; content creators had to deal with the new engine and editor.
        I would add these now:
        * Tense, tiresome game for some people, including me. One or more of: graphics, learning curve, atmosphere, trash talking. Lack of social aspect: broken VoIP, no gametype for cooperative gamers before Titan.

        * "Negativism": not really a particular category, but just a state of mind that some people have. Looking at the 5% they don't like, ignoring the rest 95%. I'm not talking about the different legitimate problems that make game annoying for some of us, but nitpicking. For me the overdone hit effects are the only problem that would have KILLED the game if I didn't knew how to disable them, others will have their own reasons. Just a note though: it's for ME, it doesn't have to be for YOU or someone else. I can't judge other people or say they are just "whining" about something that I happen to not care about

        Some of the above are already solved, some are not Epic's "fault" but are just unavoidable or even only personal opinion. What is unfortunate though is that some weren't a matter of requiring manpower or exhaustive work for Epic, and a lot of them weren't influenced by a rushed release or lack of polish. They were by design, and these ones I can't really understand!

        Regardless of all the details, this is my version of the "big picture":
        there was an attempt to stretch the game and please as much people as possible, but what happened was the other way around! The claims that they don't listen, can't make games, don't care about UT and all other sorts of **** they put up with, are just a ton of unfair and pathetic BS!!! What happened is that with tons of work and effort, even if they catered more for a segment of players, they had the ambition of making a super game for the current and potential future fans. They didn't have enough time to compensate for their loss of focus. Even if it's perceived as a much better game than most junk out there and sold more than 1 million copies, it's popularity is well below expectations because there's always something or a few details that ruined the game for all sorts of potencial players.

        Comment


          #94
          Originally posted by Sourpuss View Post
          I read Bersy's post and didn't see anything particularly profound in it. It reminded me of a speech where someone states broad principles that most people could agree with but few specifics other than to get rid of the time-tested and gamer-approved shock rifle and flak cannon.
          The broad idea is where it should start, the specifics come later. People here are too obsessed with specifics, because each member of this board is for the most part, a hardcore player, each with his or her own idea about what the "major failing" is. That kind of thinking is unproductive, and I guarantee Epic stopped listening to that kind of criticism long ago. Nobody need take my opinion as gospel for that matter, as I said I hesitated to post it in the first place, but the thing is I once thought exactly the same as you. Return to the old UT and everything will be A ok, but honestly who are we kidding? What we really want here is not the same game, what we want is the same magic. The only way to do that is to make it something almost completely unfamiliar again.. The return of innocence and erasure of all our little arguing points we've built over 10 years of variation on the same thing.

          Comment


            #95
            Originally posted by Bersy
            The broad idea is where it should start, the specifics come later. People here are too obsessed with specifics, because each member of this board is for the most part, a hardcore player, each with his or her own idea about what the "major failing" is.
            Not in my case (and a lot of others here) Even without much clue at a times, you may see on my post that I make a genuine effort to mention topics that concern other people, the ones that aren't here, aren't vocal or are afraid to post, are the minority, etc...

            Originally posted by Bersy
            What we really want here is not the same game, what we want is the same magic.

            Comment


              #96
              The learning curve is what turns a lot of people off. It's kind of like a brutal world of pro sports again. I see this noob just making basic mistakes and gettin pwned repeatedly then he just leaves the server.

              Not everyone's mentally strong enough to take whooping after whooping and get better. I know I was ragequitting a lot back in the days and tryin to justify and make excuses for me gettin raped.

              It's only now that I see it payin off although just a little while ago all efforts seemed futile so yeah a very steep learning curve.

              I got to be l33t at COD4 very quickly compared to this.

              Comment


                #97
                Originally posted by mega_d0peman View Post
                It's not so much about video editing or anything. The stuff I cut daily goes out to air I'm my own last chain of quality control before it does. So if someone wants to film/edit something and has no idea about even the basics but is tryin to tell me how to do it, then it's just kinda funny.

                Basically, you may find yourself bound by all kinds of corporate bs to where you'll realize people who are there now may have wanted the same thing but can't do it due to the publisher goin crazy, the shareholders goin nuts, and the board of directors going berserk and juggernaut later
                Okay, but first of all Epic doesn't have shareholders, they are privately held. As far as the publisher, we all see first hand what happens when you let a publisher like Midway have too much of a say. But if the concept is well solidified before taking it to the publisher in the first place I don't see why a company shouldn't be able to end up with exactly the game they want. I think moreover, with a franchise as beloved as UT, there is a lot of clamboring within the company itself for a say in its direction and then they compromise. Which isn't always a bad thing, but compromise can also amount to lack of clear direction.

                Maybe Tim wants it to be old school deathmatch and ctf, Cliff wants it to be some raw gorefest where everyone has chainsaws, Mark wants it to have hoverboards and invisible vehicles, and Mike wants to incorporate a story about a war. Tim's idea comes closest to "tournament" but it's nothing new. Cliff's idea appeals to the teenage zombie genre demographic, but won't really attract competitive players. Mark's idea will make it fun for newbies and console players, but doesn't consider what would make the best leading edge PC game. Mike's story idea deepens the universe and incorporates a cinematic element, but confuses the history and premise of the whole game.

                There is nothing wrong with Epic making a game this way, if that's the way they want to make games. But it's probably a good thing they chose to pursue new IP ideas, because they're not the same company that made the first UT. They should build something new from the ground up, because I am sure they are all great creative minds who work well together, they just need the right concepts to prove that. My way of approaching a future UT might allow them to return to the series while also not be too creatively limited, which is just what they would need to even consider it imo. So I have thought about it from many sides.. doesn't necessarily mean I'm right, in the end I'm just another armchair critic.

                Comment


                  #98
                  Originally posted by Benfica View Post
                  Not in my case (and a lot of others here) Even without much clue at a times, you may see on my post that I make a genuine effort to mention topics that concern other people, the ones that aren't here, aren't vocal or are afraid to post, are the minority, etc...
                  There are always exceptions, and you sir, may consider yourself one.

                  Comment


                    #99
                    I feel it is not the hardcore twitch gameplay that needs saving but the Unreal universe. Hardcore twitch gameplay has long since lost mass appeal and can still be found in a bunch of other niche games. The Unreal universe is unique.

                    What I believe is that Epic decided to make a sequel that they thought was great, including features that they really wanted to work on. Completely understandable. I do exactly the same with my own mods. Except I don't have to make any money off my mods (though the MSUC prize money was, of course, welcome).

                    To this end, Epic began work on and subsequently hyped a ton of features, including huge, streaming maps, resource gathering, unlockable conduits, submarine missile strikes, realtime necrifying landscape, stealing tech from other corporations, collapsing stone archways and bots that you could command in plain verbal English.

                    What we see now are the mere stubs of these ideas, their corners cut to the point where they became feasible for the too-rapidly-approaching deadline. For nearly every feature that was gloriously hyped, I can point out where it was indeed implemented, up to some point, usually in a way that escapes the average player's notice. Examples include the now merely decorative mining robots in WAR-PowerSurge, the now also merely decorative submarine in WAR-OnyxCoast and a host of resources that can only be viewed in the editor.

                    The Titan Pack displays further evidence of this approach. It contains many things that were originally planned but cut, including WAR-ColdHarbor, the Stealthbender and the conduits (which were originally intended to be orb receiving powernode embellishments in Conquest).

                    On a positive note... one very worthy addition to the franchise was the necris vehicle set. It delivers on both the graphics and gameplay fronts with artistic genius and incredibly original mechanics.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by mega_d0peman View Post
                      Any major overhauls again result in a 50/50 split
                      Like Bersy said, splitting up the community is a non-issue already because what little there is left is not going to save the franchise even with a 100/0 split. The franchise needs to regain its mass appeal.

                      Originally posted by mega_d0peman View Post
                      you may find yourself bound by all kinds of corporate bs to where you'll realize people who are there now may have wanted the same thing but can't do it due to the publisher goin crazy, the shareholders goin nuts, and the board of directors going berserk and juggernaut later
                      While that is undoubtedly true to some extent, I don't think the current state of the game can be attributed to this alone. Changes have been made, to the detriment of the game, to areas that were previously fine. The problem here wasn't that nobody could suggest innovation, but that the wrong type of innovation was approved.

                      At the risk of "picking at peas to point out the flaws in a meal"... just a few examples:

                      The campaign is a total anti-feature. The game always was and always will be about shooting people in the face. The thin pretext on which that is done is, as CliffyB puts it, like the story in a porn movie. It should provide a bit of a setup, but above all it should not get in the way of things. The way the UT3 campaign was set up, however, with its horribly lopsided matches and team limit of 4, managed to ruin the experience for more than a few players. A dead-simple tournament ladder with random teammates (exactly like in the prequels) would have served the same purpose, but without getting in the way.

                      The art direction tried to go two separate ways at once. The concept art and promo screenshots show vibrant color, which was subsequently killed off in an attempt to make the game more "Gears" (or maybe "Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare").

                      The Warfare gametype, contrived following the evolutionary dead end of the hyped Conquest pipe dream, took two of the most successful gametypes of its predecessors (Onslaught and Assault) and managed to pretty much kill the attraction for both fanbases. It did not visibly attempt to address the obvious flaws that Onslaught had, and the Assault part has been utterly marginalized. Simply re-releasing Onslaught would have salvaged a huge part of the old community.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Benfica View Post
                        with tons of work and effort, even if they catered more for a segment of players, they had the ambition of making a super game for the current and potential future fans.
                        That I believe. I may have a lot of complaints, but if I didn't care about the franchise I wouldn't even bother to come here and post them.

                        Epic's continued refusal or inability to acknowledge even part of this very broad issue does not inspire any confidence in me, though.

                        Originally posted by Bersy View Post
                        Maybe Tim wants it to be old school deathmatch and ctf, Cliff wants it to be some raw gorefest where everyone has chainsaws, Mark wants it to have hoverboards and invisible vehicles, and Mike wants to incorporate a story about a war. Tim's idea comes closest to "tournament" but it's nothing new. Cliff's idea appeals to the teenage zombie genre demographic, but won't really attract competitive players. Mark's idea will make it fun for newbies and console players, but doesn't consider what would make the best leading edge PC game. Mike's story idea deepens the universe and incorporates a cinematic element, but confuses the history and premise of the whole game.
                        That is a very interesting theory! Trying to look into the heads of others is likely to fail, but I feel this theory holds up much better than average.

                        Comment


                          IMO this game has the potential to be much more then it has been allowed to be and a better question would be what can be done to bring it back to it's well deserved glory. One of my clan guys brought this up earlier and rather then retype all of it in another way I will just post our conversation... it pretty much says how I feel in an honest way that is not belittling to the epic guys and IMO would save the game as well as future releases of it.

                          Bl0ckH3ad: oh you wanted to know about (#^!((@#* online , according to the people on the forums there really is not one
                          [pbg]NoMercy4U: :| ..so not a clangame dude
                          [pbg]NoMercy4U: lol today is saw ut3-game on "Grabbeltisch" translation: Cheaptable....only 5 €uro...
                          [pbg]NoMercy4U: more worth
                          Bl0ckH3ad: yeah sort of sad really
                          Bl0ckH3ad: some would say it would help the community
                          [pbg]NoMercy4U: yep
                          Bl0ckH3ad: i say it only hurts it
                          [pbg]NoMercy4U: hurt???
                          Bl0ckH3ad: no one wants to play a game that is a year and a half old and is being sold for 5 bucks
                          Bl0ckH3ad: there is usually a reason for it
                          Bl0ckH3ad: they should just make it free
                          Bl0ckH3ad: then it would do an about face
                          [pbg]NoMercy4U: yes....but they burned too much money with it....THAT hurts the developer...
                          Bl0ckH3ad: nah electrically transferred doesn't cost much of anything
                          Bl0ckH3ad: they want to put it behind them
                          Bl0ckH3ad: that would be the best way
                          [pbg]NoMercy4U: z^^
                          Bl0ckH3ad: now that it is somewhat known that would bring the community back IMO
                          [pbg]NoMercy4U: man all play the boring "*&@%"....
                          Bl0ckH3ad: if they could accomplish that much then they stand a chance at bringing it back then put out a new version of the game in a year or two
                          Bl0ckH3ad: in the mean time they can continue to sell the engine to other games as they have been
                          [pbg]NoMercy4U: they were quite succesful in the past...i know....aaah i got the idea...we all play Supersoaker.....they use the old ut engine....
                          [pbg]NoMercy4U: do you know supersoaker?
                          Bl0ckH3ad: lmao .. ueah
                          [pbg]NoMercy4U: i allow my little son to play it
                          I should add that this was done with inline games, Option number one: in lew of paying for the game you would have to have a small banner advertisement, which can help to generate money. Option number two was you could pay for the game and get the banner removed.

                          This in my eyes accomplishes two important things:
                          one is it gets the game played
                          the other is it is done in a way that doesn't anger the people whom have already paid the money for the full game.


                          I'm not sure how much anyone else agrees with any of this but it is only my 2 cents.

                          dave9

                          Comment


                            oh please they can not and should not and will not make the game free. (we dont need or want UT "live" either) that would not help anything. it's available inexpensively to gamers and everyones mother has a pc capable of running it now... it's just tough to sell an already released "old" game while theres lots of new stuff being released all the time. also it'd be impossible to sell it or give it away with any great results without repackaging and relaunching it with a big ad campaign, and promotions. something also not likely to happen now...

                            UT3 has players and fans, just not as many as it deserves for all the reasons we already know... the game itself is great, but because of the botched up release before it was finished, Midway, and no ads, combined with other popular releases at the same time etc. it just was a perfect bad storm for UT3.

                            I really believe a rehash/re-release like was done with the 2k4 ECE pack would have been good, but hey, it didn't happen so here we are... stop complaining, theorizing or whining and get back to playing we can keep UT alive till the next round (which will hopefully come before we run out of good mods to play)

                            Comment


                              Hmmmm as MSU4 has only just finished and theres still a round to go (grand final) Maybe there could still be an ECE? I agree its not likely but its not entirely discountable yet.

                              Dave Neun ya may want to edit your post to abbreviate the names of the other games in it. (friendly advice) I can see the merit in the idea though

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by UnrealGrrl View Post
                                I really believe a rehash/re-release like was done with the 2k4 ECE pack
                                I have said this a hundred times, and I agree completely with this statement but I think they have their hands full

                                5 dollars of free?, adverts for up coming games released on their own engine.

                                I agree with you I don't see it happening either but I can also tell you if it did I wouldn't care because it wouldn't effect my version other then to have more targets

                                Originally posted by FragTastic
                                Dave Neun ya may want to edit your post to abbreviate the names of the other games in it. (friendly advice) I can see the merit in the idea though
                                yeah it helps to proof read lolz .. my bad, least the language was all clean hahaha..

                                look we all would like the game to be a cherished item as it should be, free may truly be too much of a sacrifice. Just a thought much like re releasing it as an ECE or another free weekend or two. I would love to see a few hundred full to capacity servers any legitimate way possible.

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