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Paladin, Cicada, and Hellfire- Nerfed from UT2k4?

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    Paladin, Cicada, and Hellfire- Nerfed from UT2k4?

    In playing UT2004 with the Mega Bonus Pack, my experience with the Bonus Vehicles (the Paladin, Cicada, and Hellfire) were very positive: the Paladin offered heavyweight support and fantastic defensive capabilities; the Cicada offered a powerful attack craft with strong offensive performances against both heavy and light vehicles, and defensive performances against AVRiL missiles and Raptors, thanks to the gunner; the Hellfire offered the ultimate area suppression and long-range support. In playing UT3, however, all three of these vehicles (the Hellfire less so than the Paladin or Cicada) have significantly less effective records.

    My grievances are:

    Paladin: Negligible (if any) speed or maneuverability advantages over Goliath (the most closely related vehicle), while being outgunned in projectile speed, damage, and blast radius, and has lower armor. Also, the alternate fire's shield has a shorter arc.

    Cicada: Both the primary and alternative fire modes are impossible to aim, and the individual projectiles seem to do relatively small amounts of damage within a tiny radius of the impact point.

    Hellfire: ...Nothing like the other two. The Hellfire remains an effective and versatile tool on the battlefield.

    I assume that I am not the only one who feels this way. On the off-chance that someone from Epic reads these forums (and this topic specifically) or an enterprising modder or two should stumble across it, my proposals to remedy the issues are:

    Paladin: Give it some edge over the other heavy vehicles, so that there is some reason to choose it over them. This could be done by 1. Increasing the tank's speed and decreasing its turning radius to something closer to a Hellbender, 2. Increase the offensive capabilities by increasing the blast radius of the gun's projectiles (traditionally, Paladin's projectiles had a very large radius, one very similar to the Goliath's), or 3. Make the shield an undeniable advantage; if the speed of it's deployment was increased (specifically, the delay that one experiences after firing the gun), and Paladin drivers could hide behind their shield very soon after deactivating it, Paladins could be very tough vehicles to fight for one enemy or group of close enemies. As it is, the shield is slow enough to prevent its use in anything more than approaches or escapes. A combination of these three tweaks would be ideal, rendering the vehicle both useful and unique.

    Cicada: 1. Eliminate the rockets' wild spirals either in favor of straight paths or much less distinct spirals--as of now, the projectiles' paths make it very difficult to hit even stationary targets directly. 2. Increase the damage and/or blast radius of the rockets so that it can be an effective ground-attack craft that doesn't require half a minute or more to down a foot soldier. Once again, combining both would be ideal.

    Hellfire: No changes.

    What do you think? Are these changes reasonable, or do I simply have skewed conceptions of these vehicles' roles on the battlefield?

    #2
    i agree. many have said stuff like this especially about cicada since it is pretty useless right now.

    Comment


      #3
      Negative.

      UT3 paladin is much faster than 2k4 pali, and the maps are much more suited to the paladin's function. Pali should not go head to head vs. goliaths or DWs, it's better at taking out the smaller vehicles and of course defending. In the hands of a skilled pilot, mantas, vipers, scavengers, scorpions and medium range raptors shouldn't last very long against a pali.

      Cicada: weapon damage hasn't changed at all from 2k4, and manuverability is ridiculously upgraded. It's not a flying barn anymore, it now has greater lateral movement than before. It's a long range bomber, the rockets act more for splash than pinpoint kills. Use the 2nd seat to kill people or outright run them over.

      Comment


        #4
        The cicada is annoying and not enjoyable to use. People don't vote Dusk, it's not worth building the center node on Torlan and it's rare to have it on custom maps.

        Comment


          #5
          I found Cicada and Paladin useless too, but that was probably only because I didnt know how to use them correctly. I believe weapon/vechile balances had been think over carefully.

          Like previous posters said, Cicadas second seat is accuracy with fast firing rate and avril "traps". Paladin has shield but its pretty slow appearing and disappear if it touches ground or wall, dont help much when alone. I find Paladin mostly useless, but probably shields full effect is shown only with good team play.

          Comment


            #6
            I think Cicada primary fire will better converge on the target reticle if you back off and give it some range.

            I was using it on ColdHarbor the other day, and found it pretty effective as long as I didn't get too close.

            Comment


              #7
              Paladin, I would alter it mode of use. You could move the paladin to a location, place it in position then deploy it as a powerful stationary shield that doesn't need manning with a much stroger wider shield that it has right now.

              You could then use this quite tactically for a number of things, preventing scan hit from distances, protecting nodes, providing ground based cover at bases, nodes, active battle areas from SPMAs, raptors, etc.

              Comment


                #8
                Hellbender isn't nerfed. Please don't buff that nuicance any more than it is righ now....

                Cicada in UT3 is broken due to the view making it impossible to aim. I can't believe they still haven't fixed it.

                The pally is also broken due to early shots hitting a partially deployed shield being taken by the palladin - even if those would have missed the paladin itself. Also it's broken because a tank toe to toe with a paladin leads to the tank winning. If tank vs paladin = tank needing to retreat as was in ut2004, the game would be far better balanced. Also you get no score for defending a node with a pally - so playres who play for points will shun it.

                Comment


                  #9
                  All of Hedsteem servers are running a modified SPMA with a flame thrower and air seeking rockets when unmounted and shoots a burst of shock balls when mounted.

                  We've found that the Paladin causes the no-flag-cap bug where you either can't grab the enemy flag or you can't cap the flag. It is in a modified version on our VTDM and Warfare servers. They do much more damage than normal

                  The Cicada in it's stock form has always been completely useless. It has been modified into the Vulture which shoots bombs for the primary and air seeking rockets for the alternate fire. The second seat shoots nemisis type lasers and flares, which I'm not sure if the stock Cicada does or not.

                  You can come check them out on our VCTF, VTDM, Warfare and Greed servers: http://hedsteem.com/hedmon.html

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Some thoughts about buffing cicada and paladin:

                    Paladin:
                    I have the biggest problems with the paladin when I want to drive into the action.
                    Let's take war-downtown, the center node for example.
                    A paladin doesn't survive more then 5 seconds in this area in most cases, because it will be raped by rockets mainly. the paladin pilot is not able to counter this rocketstorm, because of 2 reasons:
                    1. the shield takes ages to deploy and is a bit small
                    2. the paladin takes ages to accelerate to reach the needed speed to escape.

                    I suggest:
                    The shield deploying time should be halfed and the shield needs to be a bit bigger.
                    Make the paladin able to accelerate faster (it is a tank on wheels !)
                    I also suggest to buff the rate of fire.

                    The Cicada is very useful with two persons in it (pilot and gunner), but nevertheless the rockets are rather useless, because they spin in the air like crazy. It is hard to hit footsoldiers in close range, because the rockets don't follow the crosshair. moving targets in mid to long range are also too hard to hit, because the rockets travel so slow.

                    I suggest the following buffs:
                    remove rocket-spinning in the air and buff speed and splash damage.
                    If everything should stay the same I would also be satisfied with something like a guiding laser for the rockets.
                    It could work like this:
                    You hold the right mouse button to load rockets and you can activate a guiding laser by clicking and holding the left mouse button. Release the right mouse button to let the rockets follow the laser. The laser could be also used to guide forgotten avrils to a target (lthe same way you are able to guide multiple avrils to your target).

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Trepænima View Post
                      Negative.

                      UT3 paladin is much faster than 2k4 pali, and the maps are much more suited to the paladin's function. Pali should not go head to head vs. goliaths or DWs, it's better at taking out the smaller vehicles and of course defending. In the hands of a skilled pilot, mantas, vipers, scavengers, scorpions and medium range raptors shouldn't last very long against a pali.
                      I use Paladins all the time on WAR-Power Surge and occasionally on WAR-Downtown; I have no trouble knocking Mantas or Scorpions out (I don't ever recall fighting Raptors with a Paladin) at anything inside very long range, and Hellbenders are cake--even at far distances, so long as you can lead them. My comments are not based on their performance against the lightweights.

                      I feel that if a vehicle's ace-in-the-hole is going to be its shield (and thus, defensive capability), it should be truly effective; the current Paladin's shield can only hold up against a few direct shots from a Goliath--which I agree with; I think it has 1000HP, which is a large amount--but requires a driver to sacrifice all practical ranged offensive capabilities (the shield-detonated firing is still possible, and it still runs pedestrians downs quite nicely). I agree with rhiridflaidd in that encountering a Paladin of UT2004 in a Goliath was either a frantic firefight or an immediate retreat and avoidance. In UT3, it's almost comical to think of using a Paladin head-to-head against a Goliath in fair condition. I stand by saying that the shield needs to have a lower deploy time, ideally, one fast enough that allows for fire-and-defend tactics against the other heavy stuff--even then, the shield takes some time to recharge anyways, so you'd still be exposed after a few direct hits from a tank's gun.

                      Alternatively, I suppose that if the shield were buffed tremendously, (2000HP? More?) One could rely on it by simply driving up to enemy heavy vehicles and using the shield-detonated attacks to destroy them. However, this seems a bit much, as a combined HP value of 2800HP is excessive; a vehicle that is capable of the same victories with a bit of finesse added to its current 1800HP (or thereabouts) seems like a better balance.

                      Perhaps I simply need to adjust to its role.
                      Originally posted by Trepænima View Post
                      Cicada: weapon damage hasn't changed at all from 2k4, and manuverability is ridiculously upgraded. It's not a flying barn anymore, it now has greater lateral movement than before. It's a long range bomber, the rockets act more for splash than pinpoint kills. Use the 2nd seat to kill people or outright run them over.
                      Consider that last line: a ground-attack aircraft with weapons so ineffective that it has to resort to crushing infantry to achieve concise kills. That's bad.
                      Originally posted by dickbird View Post
                      I think Cicada primary fire will better converge on the target reticle if you back off and give it some range.

                      I was using it on ColdHarbor the other day, and found it pretty effective as long as I didn't get too close.
                      I haven't tried it too often at long range, as I find it most effective to close in on targets (to reasonable distances; certainly not inside the range in which the Rocket Launcher (even with rocket lock-ons) can be effectively used) such as Hellbenders or Goliaths. I'll try it at longer ranges to see how it goes.
                      Originally posted by s8nskeep View Post
                      Paladin, I would alter it mode of use. You could move the paladin to a location, place it in position then deploy it as a powerful stationary shield that doesn't need manning with a much stroger wider shield that it has right now.

                      You could then use this quite tactically for a number of things, preventing scan hit from distances, protecting nodes, providing ground based cover at bases, nodes, active battle areas from SPMAs, raptors, etc.
                      This is a very interesting idea; I imagine being able to use the strafe keys to pan the shield from side to side. Modders should take note of this idea.

                      However, there are already two mobile turrets available in the Hellfire and the Nemesis, both of which are spectacular for defense, as well as the Darkwalker and Goliath, which pose vicious long-ranged threats. I very much like your idea, s8nskeep, but I don't think that it could be accommodated in this game and retain an identity unique from the Paladin and Hellfire.
                      Originally posted by rhiridflaidd View Post
                      Hellbender isn't nerfed. Please don't buff that nuicance any more than it is righ now....
                      The Hellfire (...and Hellbender?) is fine as-is, agreed.

                      Hi, Rhi, by the way. It's bondsheep, from way back.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Mr. Sheepus View Post
                        I use Paladins all the time on WAR-Power Surge and occasionally on WAR-Downtown; I have no trouble knocking Mantas or Scorpions out (I don't ever recall fighting Raptors with a Paladin) at anything inside very long range, and Hellbenders are cake--even at far distances, so long as you can lead them. My comments are not based on their performance against the lightweights.
                        You must not play with the pali's enough. Play Islander sometime, you'll see plenty of raptor on pali action. Also, Pali is a defensive vehicle, it should be superior to small fry, and it can stall larger vehicles, but to fight them head to head? This is like complaining the DW is a weakling since a Nemesis can win head to head - the vehicle setups in UT3 were designed to be staggered, there are no ties, no replacements.


                        Originally posted by Mr. Sheepus View Post
                        I feel that if a vehicle's ace-in-the-hole is going to be its shield (and thus, defensive capability), it should be truly effective; the current Paladin's shield can only hold up against a few direct shots from a Goliath--which I agree with; I think it has 1000HP, which is a large amount--but requires a driver to sacrifice all practical ranged offensive capabilities (the shield-detonated firing is still possible, and it still runs pedestrians downs quite nicely). I agree with rhiridflaidd in that encountering a Paladin of UT2004 in a Goliath was either a frantic firefight or an immediate retreat and avoidance. In UT3, it's almost comical to think of using a Paladin head-to-head against a Goliath in fair condition. I stand by saying that the shield needs to have a lower deploy time, ideally, one fast enough that allows for fire-and-defend tactics against the other heavy stuff--even then, the shield takes some time to recharge anyways, so you'd still be exposed after a few direct hits from a tank's gun.
                        Tanks still beat pali's in 2k4. Your best strat against a tank in an open field is to charge at it, get close, use splash blast with shield up and let the tank do self damange from its own splash. It's a tank, there shouldn't be many vehicles that can take it out, there's a reason the tank was buffed up to 1k hp, and now you want to buff up the pali cause it can't compete? It's not supposed to, it's defensive, the best it should be able to do is force a stall, not a stalemate.

                        Originally posted by Mr. Sheepus View Post
                        Consider that last line: a ground-attack aircraft with weapons so ineffective that it has to resort to crushing infantry to achieve concise kills. That's bad.
                        What's wrong with crushing infantry? The cicada has the best z-axis movement in the game, a tremendous footprint for a flying vehicle, and you don't want to exploit that? It's a ground attack vehicle, why should the missles have to be accurate? It's a great armor/node killer and people die pretty fast too if you can predict their movements well enough. It's meant to be a long-range bomber, you should be locking in on targets, hiding and popping up for release. I just don't see how it's useless, it has a role and either you see the good or you don't, but I guarantee if you play dusk, people will be camping the cicadas and going for rampages and keeping center nodes in play. At least I do.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The problem of cicada is, that most people care more about killing than about objectives. Nodes, tanks and node-protecting soldiers, they are all an easy target for cicada. Better keep your distance when you're in it. Also the cicada is meant to be used with two people in it, and most of the time i see the cicada being used just by one guy. Cicada is also a vehicle, that requires "spam-skill". And the real fun begins when you manage to get berserk. Than it creates literally a wall of rockets.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Trepænima View Post
                            You must not play with the pali's enough. Play Islander sometime, you'll see plenty of raptor on pali action. Also, Pali is a defensive vehicle, it should be superior to small fry, and it can stall larger vehicles, but to fight them head to head? This is like complaining the DW is a weakling since a Nemesis can win head to head - the vehicle setups in UT3 were designed to be staggered, there are no ties, no replacements.
                            I understand what you're saying. It seems that you have rather more experience than I do, and have better views on how vehicle balance should be. I'll accept that this is better than my idea, and I see why it is the way it is, but I still stand in saying that the shield should be made more effective by way of speed.
                            Originally posted by Trepænima View Post
                            Tanks still beat pali's in 2k4. Your best strat against a tank in an open field is to charge at it, get close, use splash blast with shield up and let the tank do self damange from its own splash. It's a tank, there shouldn't be many vehicles that can take it out, there's a reason the tank was buffed up to 1k hp, and now you want to buff up the pali cause it can't compete? It's not supposed to, it's defensive, the best it should be able to do is force a stall, not a stalemate.
                            Meh. I get frustrated with having to sacrifice my Paladin every time I encounter an incoming Goliath; Scorpions and Vipers have a Self-Destruct sequence which amounts to about the same thing, in the end.
                            Originally posted by Trepænima View Post
                            What's wrong with crushing infantry? The cicada has the best z-axis movement in the game, a tremendous footprint for a flying vehicle, and you don't want to exploit that? It's a ground attack vehicle, why should the missles have to be accurate? It's a great armor/node killer and people die pretty fast too if you can predict their movements well enough. It's meant to be a long-range bomber, you should be locking in on targets, hiding and popping up for release. I just don't see how it's useless, it has a role and either you see the good or you don't, but I guarantee if you play dusk, people will be camping the cicadas and going for rampages and keeping center nodes in play. At least I do.
                            Once again, I surrender to your logic; I admit that I'm not a very good player, and that there are plenty who have far more experience playing than I. You, sir, are obviously one of them, and the folks at Epic are obviously a little more in tune with these things than I am. Good thing.

                            I shall have to try these strategies for myself. Thank you for sharing.

                            Originally posted by Garry View Post
                            And the real fun begins when you manage to get berserk. Than it creates literally a wall of rockets.
                            Aye, that's a good time. The other amusing thing (also easily accomplished on WAR-Torlan) is to pick up a Berserk, hop into a Nemesis, and raise it to the turret mode. Few things aside from concerted team efforts to destroy you can't be thrown back in that state.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              More than anything else, the main difference between UT3 and 2k4 is the focus on aggression. The more aggressive you are with the vehicles, the more you are rewarded. There are times for defense, but most of the time, the first who strikes, wins. Teams focused on defense still die a slow death.

                              You talk about scorps and vipers self-destructing on tanks - this is where the pali shines. If you use the tank as a defensive vehicle, it's very hard to defend against scorpions and vipers self-det on you. If you are in the pali, in defensive position, it's a matter of waiting for the sequence to begin to deny it. The turret moves so fast there's almost no chance for a scorp or viper to hit you unless you're completely blindsided - the poor goliath can't swing its turret in such a way and sometimes you're just stuck, having to witness a self-det hit, powerless to stop it - worse yet, drivers actually jump out of tanks trying to avoid death, and now viper/scorp drivers can jump out and steal it.

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