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Hm, why is there no FOV over 100?

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  • replied
    Code:
    ((2 * atan(((16 / 10) / (4 / 3)) * tan(((90 * pi) / 180) / 2))) * 180) / pi = 100.388858
                |_______|   |_____|         |__|                                 |__________|
                    |          |             |                                        |
         Target AR -+          |             +- Original FOV           Corrected FOV -+
                               |
                  Original AR -+

    These are simply based on the default FOV of 90 for 4:3.

    This doesn't necessarily have to do with how close or far you sit from the screen. It has more to do with what FOV is required to have the height of the screen, in widescreen, equal to the height of 4:3. I.E. if the game uses 90 for 4:3, and 90 for 16:10 and the top and bottom are cropped off of the 16:10 view, you would need to adjust the FOV to 100.388858 to gain back what was cropped off.

    It gets trickier when you take into account that there is a horizontal and vertical FOV. Certain games, like Call of Duty 4, have the FOV behave as the vertical FOV. You combine this with the aspect ratio of the screen and you get a proper horizontal FOV.

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  • replied
    On what algorithm do you base these numbers? The only FOV that does not cause fishbowling (or inverse fishbowling) is the angle from your eyes to the sides of your monitor. So unless your screen is closer to you than half its width, a FOV of 90 is unnatural already.

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  • replied
    Mafia, I agree on all your points, as you reinforced a lot of what I said. I just want to point out one specific thing... a proper 16:10 FOV would actually be 100.388857815, not 110. Even 16:9 is 106.260204708.

    These numbers follow a pretty standard algorithm, and if you compare screenshots you will find they are 100% accurate.

    The 100 FPS limit in UT3 is fine if you have a 16:10 monitor. The weapon will still be cut off on the bottom, but at least the view will be fine. 16:9 users and higher are out of luck, though.

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  • replied
    adding my support to this thread.. it's ridiculous this is even an issue. Epic should know better and take a leaf out of Valve's book on widescreen+PC ergonomics - it never harmed their online player count did it

    Most UE3 Games are sub par widescreen wise and that was the main reason I initially didn't buy the game (only bought it now after pack+patch+cheap price but still annoyed to see an official 100 limit on FOV)

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  • replied
    I still don't see what the big fuss is that had prevented Epic from a allowing a STANDARD FOV for widescreen gamers. Quite simply, for the game to look normal, and not zoomed-in, a 4:3 monitor requires an FOV of about 90, while a 16:10 monitor requires an FOV of about ~110. Nearly every other major gaming company allows standard widescreen support, with the increased FOV-- quite simply, without it, there would be absolutely no point of having widescreen monitors for gaming in the first place.

    In fact, in many other FPS's fans outcried when proper widescreen support was not provided-- any case where the developer was "lazy" and instead of providing true widescreen, they hastily chopped off the top and bottom of the 4:3 image resulting in a game that looks terribly zoomed in, and is difficult and disorienting to play. Examples: Doom 3, Bioshock, Far Cry 2 etc.. all had this problem at release, and were either patched by fans initially for proper widescreen support and in most cases the developers implemented proper support in the next patch.

    It's easy to see why some 4:3/5:4 monitor-owners are quick to cite proper 16:10 support as a threat, while in reality a higher FOV of 110 offers little to no player advantages, especially considering when EVERYONE would be allowed to set such a high FOV (I used to play UT2k4 at 110 FOV on a 4:3 monitor, yes there was fishbowl but it was much easier to enjoy the visuals with). Poor players are still poor, regardless of the FOV they use, and the same can be said regarding very skilled gaming pros or enthusiasts.

    If you own a 4:3 monitor and are wondering what all the fuss is about, try this: Setting your game's FOV to something like 70 or 80, and then tell us how it feels. That is basically the same effect widescreen users are experiencing when their 16:10 monitor is set to 100 or 90 instead of the proper ~110. It results in a severely zoomed image and is simply uncomfortable to play. Widescreen users who don't seem bothered by playing at 90 or 100-- You simply have yet to experience a TRUE widescreen game! Trust me, try downloading the mutator and setting the FOV to 110. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at a smoother and easier on the eyes experience.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Telzen View Post
    Ah I wish monitors had never went widescreen, **** movies influencing things. Why did they become so popular anyway? People want to watch movies on their pc instead of much bigger tv?
    I believe everything is shifting to wider views because that's how our vision is. We have more sight side-to-side than top-to-bottom.

    The argument is fairly pointless because it doesn't really give you that much of an advantage. Sure, you can see some extra on the sides, but it's not enough that it will suddenly make you some godlike player.

    The biggest problem with cropping the views for widescreen is that it gives a very "zoomed-in" feel to the game. It makes many people dizzy and can really make the game just feel wrong. When I look down, I see from my upper chest to my feet. When you have a cropped view and you look down, the pivot point is larger. Your view moves faster and it's like your eyes are in your knees.

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  • replied
    The users of 4:3 and 5:4 monitors are, frankly in the minority. Hell, most games are now being designed with widescreen in mind. I don't see why developers aren't making use of that extra real estate.

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  • replied
    But guys, where else should be the sense for taking a widescreen monitor?

    And the problem is, 5:4 players have actually an advantage compared to widescreeners because of their extra vertical view.

    Everything is making for advantages.
    Does not matter if mouses, keyboards or monitors.
    I don't say 5:4ers should get a disadvantage.
    Widescreeners should get an advantage because that's the sense of a widescreen monitor.

    No offense

    Greets

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  • replied
    Ah I wish monitors had never went widescreen, **** movies influencing things. Why did they become so popular anyway? People want to watch movies on their pc instead of much bigger tv?

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    If someone pays to get an advantage, he should be able to get it.
    Strong gpu=many fps which lets you play the game better
    Nice soundcard=better sound orientation
    Widescreen monitor: More of the screen visible
    etc.

    So I don't think it's necessary to discuss if they should get an advantage or not
    Ah, so this is the main argument: it's unfair if we are the ones at disadvantage, but it's ok if it's them.

    No wonder this discussion goes nowhere

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  • replied
    Widescreen was created to show more of the screen - may sound stupid, but it's actually true^^
    The best example is any movie.
    Why shouldn't it be the same with a game?

    If someone pays to get an advantage, he should be able to get it.
    Strong gpu=many fps which lets you play the game better
    Nice soundcard=better sound orientation
    Widescreen monitor: More of the screen visible
    etc.

    So I don't think it's necessary to discuss if they should get an advantage or not
    UT3 does not have the feature which many other games already have years ago.
    Let's see if this will be changed in future.

    Greets

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    I deleted the post but I'm curious now ...

    See, I'm a guy that really doesn't care much about other gamers having all sorts of advantages, if it's not cheating, more power to them. And if the fov lock makes you physically ill, then I understand you point very well. You may not find anyone on this forum that ranted more than me

    But you are talking about players with standard screens have an advantage while "most" pc gamers with new systems play on widescreen. So, if the fov changed, would players with widescreen now have the advantage at the expense of the 5:4 players, or not?

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  • replied
    @Dopefish:
    Lol, I now wanted to post the same screenshot as you did
    Yes, I think it is clearly visible how it should be.
    I can't understand where the problem is.

    Greets

    Leave a comment:


  • replied
    Hey, it's Dopefish! I've seen you on Widescreen Gamers Forum before! You know what this means: you're famous now. Good to see some more support in any case.


    Originally posted by Benfica
    You are suggesting that someone that has a 16:10 screen should see more than who has a 4:3 or 5:4 ?
    Absolutely. It is called widescreen for a reason; we don't call standard aspect ratios like 5:4 "tallscreen", do we? You complain about widescreen displays giving other players an advantage, but you don't seem to realise that standard aspect ratios get an advantage by locking the horizontal FOV under the current system. Most PC gamers these days with recent computers are using widescreen displays, which are almost all 16:10 or 16:9, yet Unreal Engine 3's support for these ratios in general is often abysmal. Playing a cropped game on a widescreen monitor is actually a lot harder than you would expect - it gives the game an unnatural zoomed-in feel that actually makes me physically ill when I become aware of it. I'm not sure why so many developers have such shoddy support for widescreen games... I assume a lot of it is just neglect, but it's possible cross-platform development for the less powerful consoles means that they can't actually perform well at a full-FOV widescreen 720p+ resolution, and resort to cropping to preserve performance, and developers don't change it on the PC.

    Although it's a different game, BioShock's original implementation of widescreen is similarly poor. Take a look at the difference between the two, and tell me which one feels more natural. Note how in the locked implementation, the lamp on the wall, most of the door, some of the corpse on the floor, and most of that floor, are all cut off. People don't have tunnel vision under normal circumstances. That's what a cropped vertical FOV feels like.

    Horizontal FOV lock on:

    [screenshot]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/acious/bio2.jpg[/screenshot]


    Horizontal FOV lock off:

    [screenshot]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/acious/bio1.jpg[/screenshot]

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  • replied
    I'll post some information here.

    I actually make a Widescreen Fixer application for several games that do not have proper implementations. I've tried with UT3, but I can't seem to figure out the engine.

    [shot]http://imk.cx/pc/widescreenfixer/comparison.jpg[/shot]

    In this image of BF2142, you can see that the widescreen view for 16:10 is not actually wider. It is actually a cropped 4:3 view. This is almost exactly how UT3 does it. There is a small gap between the 4:3 and 16:10 view horizontally with BF2142, this gap does not exist with UT3. However, the vertical part is still cropped off. The correct way to handle this would be to keep the same vertical size as 4:3, and then extend horizontally.

    Assuming the default FOV is 90, and it's intended for 4:3, these would be the correct FOV values for various aspect ratios:

    5:4 = 86.304779468
    4:3 = 90
    16:10 = 100.388857815
    15:9 = 102.680383492
    16:9 = 106.260204708

    3 x 5:4 = 140.853748339
    3 x 4:3 = 143.130102354
    3 x 16:10 = 148.951778006
    3 x 15:9 = 150.137165644
    3 x 16:9 = 151.927513064

    So really, the only widescreen aspect-ratio that you can get to work correctly with UT3 is 16:10. You can set the FOV slider to 100, which is just shy of 100.38. The difference between 100 and 100.38 is negligible, but you still can't go any higher for 16:9 or triplehead aspect-ratios.


    Almost all UE3-based games have this same issue. There are a few of them that do it correctly. The Rainbow Six: Vegas games both support widescreen, but not triplehead. Frontlines: Fuel of War also gives you an option to select the aspect ratio, but again it's only for widescreen and not triplehead. It also doesn't give you the proper choice for 5:4.

    The fix itself should be pretty simple, considering I can often fix most games just by hacking away at ASM in memory. Modifying the game source directly should be even easier I think.


    I'd really like to see Epic get a fix in for this, or at least keep the FOV slider at 80-100, but let users pick a pre-determined aspect-ratio that will automatically fix the vertical crop and expand the view horizontally.

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