Scoring and the Titan pack

[Xyx]

I'm all for endless variety. I just don't see much of that when 90% of the maps have 1-3-1 layouts that devolve into pointless deathmatches while waiting for the cores to drain.

[Benfica]

Xyx and rhiridflaidd, I agree with what you are saying. What I meant (or was thinking about) was that I oppose to the concept of "rules", "playing by the book", the "best" and "the way it's meant to be played". I prefer 40% tactical, 40% heavy fighting, 20% dumb gameplay. In UT2004 this would mean voting and iterating between VolcanoHigh, Dreamus, Dria, GunShop, Desertsands, etc... Get rid of chokes or 1-3-1 and suddenly you shouldn't play any map that follows those rules, you shouldn't have a change of pace. Most maps with chokes get old and ruin the game, but so does getting rid of them all, the game becomes too tactical.


There's room for all kinds of gameplay, each at a time. Otherwise suddenly you are asking to play inside a sandbox. Let me give you 2 other "unwritten rules" that cripple the game if they are taken to the extreme:

- "Skill": spam is stupid and is for noobs, you must get rid of some weapons. The levi doesn't require skill, get rid of it. Choke nodes bring mindless spam, get rid of them all. The Orb requires a skilled player to deliver, let's keep it on all maps up to the point that people forgot how to play without it. Scorps give easy frags with self-destruct and pwn mantas easily, let's fix it. Noobs get frags with spiders, get rid of them all. Ah yes, the SPMA too. Then shock requires lots of precision and aiming skill, let's flood the maps with shock. Sniper is for campers, get rid of it.

* "Balance". Maps should be symetrical, everybody should have the same number of vehicles and weapons, all the weapons must be religiously balanced. If not, it is dismissed as "unbalanced", "unfair", "sucking". But how can someone learn to overcome difficulties then? People learned to play Islander and Onyx. Learned to handle the Walker and invuln on UT3 DM. Even if in this map there's something that you can't easily beat, maybe that's a worthwhile new challenge. IMHO it's lame to get rid of stuff not because it's not fun or creative, but because there's the risk of a disadvantage even if it's for 30 secs, and nobody cared to think for a while how to counter them.

[rhiridflaidd]

What's more, some people like and have fun with choke nodes, dumb maps, spam, "hold your mouse button and blow **** up" gameplay, after a day's work, busy family life, whatever... Like Dreamus, SpamBox, MinusTankMeUp, etc...
.

for once I disagree with Benfica.

Spambox and TankMeUp were worked on extremely hard to get them to work - with a lot of community input.

Spambox is actually one of the most tactically challenging maps, believe it or not, and it is one map where the best team will win - and spambox and tankmeup do not have chokenodes.

After a stressful day, I argue that you do not necessarily want a stressful game. Yes- you want the UT in yer face action, but you also sometimes like to sit back and snipe with a hellbender, and just take a few minutes breather to relax.

For that you need space and you do not want to be forced into a chokepoint melee.

[Xyx]

I have no objections to mindless spam, but I do appreciate the occasional change of scenery. In some of those 1-3-1 maps, 90% of the map's real estate is wasted as 99% of the action centers around the primes. That's a total waste and I don't see why more maps couldn't be like Dawn. You might as well stick to playing Primeval, Frostbite or just SpamBox. The only real difference is the time it takes you to get back into the action.

Breaking out of those 1-3-1 deadlocks is mostly reserved for well-coordinated clan matches. The game gets most of its play time on pubs and in single player. Let the game work out of the box for those, and let the clanners play their LE/SE versions.

[Benfica]

UT2004 Onslaught had a similar mechanic in most of its 1-3-1 node link setups. The losing team would be pushed back to its core, but because it was so easy to keep the prime node suppressed the winning team would not be able to attack the core. Matches dragged out for 10 minutes and the only thing that was still in reasonable doubt was not whether the losing would get back on top but whether they'd hold out long enough for a 1-point overtime loss as opposed to a 2-point loss.

These stalemates are not helping anyone involved; the losers get frustrated with not being able to change the tide, the winners get frustrated with not being able to push their advantage and the spectators get bored to tears. Getting rid of choking 1-3-1 setups seemed the most obvious solution, yet UT2004 ECE only brought in more maps like that, implying that Epic does not give a ****.

Hmm... load UT2004, click a map and notice the recomended player count. Play Artic, RedPlanet or Urban 6vs6 and they work. Throw 32p at a map that is designed for 12 and of course it will not.

What's more, some people like and have fun with choke nodes, dumb maps, spam, "hold your mouse button and blow **** up" gameplay, after a day's work, busy family life, whatever... Like Dreamus, SpamBox, MinusTankMeUp, etc...

And overtime would give that "fight for survival" instinct, that would keep 32p servers full even when playing the lame Urban 1-3-1 w/o Levi. Now with uneven teams, instead of playing OT, people spend their time loading maps.

[rhiridflaidd]

I disagree with the not giving a damm bit. So I''m going to go wayyy off topic in my own thread here.

I think the real difference is a difference in ethos between Epic who wanted warfare to be immediate, aggressive and in your face.

Ut2004, as the community designed maps was a mellower affair, where choosing the right vehicle to attack the right place was more important as out and out aggression. I think the truth is that epic has never "got" War\Onslaught - and still hasn't as proven in the way that spambox wasn't thought to be any good as a map in MUSC.


The community's reinterpretation of ut2004 led to it's longevity. This wasn't reproducible in UT3 up to now due to
-large map downloads leading to rounds being over before the map was downloaded,
-Good, low latency servers with misleadingly high pings being reported in server browser, so nobody would join
-The cache being cleared leading to players not in the know - re downloading maps monthly.

Steam though will give us a chance to roll out the community content once more. I'd love a large scale warfare pack, together with critical mutators to be rolled out via Steam.

But to do this the community will in the first instance need to come together to create themed mappacks, and a number of servers to host that experience - and quick, to capitalise on any gain from a steam surge.

[Xyx]

TLDR:

1. Spawnkilling should not be a viable tactic except in specific situations.
2. Gameplay should limit the effectiveness of spawnkilling.
3. Gameplay should limit the frequency and duration of situations where spawnkilling is effective.
4. Tactics that do not contribute to success should not be worth points.

Rant:

Of course you're going to kick someone when he's down... that's all part of the game. However, the game should not revolve around kicking people when they're down. That should just be a small bonus.

There used to be fighter games where the first person to get knocked down would lose, because he'd get stomped and stomped and stomped for the win. The game degenerates into getting a quick knockdown and then prolonging the agony. That detracts from the part that is fun for all involved; trying to get the other guy on the ground in the first place.

UT2004 Onslaught had a similar mechanic in most of its 1-3-1 node link setups. The losing team would be pushed back to its core, but because it was so easy to keep the prime node suppressed the winning team would not be able to attack the core. Matches dragged out for 10 minutes and the only thing that was still in reasonable doubt was not whether the losing would get back on top but whether they'd hold out long enough for a 1-point overtime loss as opposed to a 2-point loss.

These stalemates are not helping anyone involved; the losers get frustrated with not being able to change the tide, the winners get frustrated with not being able to push their advantage and the spectators get bored to tears. Getting rid of choking 1-3-1 setups seemed the most obvious solution, yet UT2004 ECE only brought in more maps like that, implying that Epic does not give a ****.

[rhiridflaidd]

i still SUCK BAD at ut3..

I don't

[The Demon Slick]

Spawnkilling, simple... If it helps your team, it's good. If it hurts your team, you're a *****. Easy. On a side note, I want the other team to try it's hardest all the time. (and my team too, of course:-)

[milt]

Wow everybody loses buddy.losing is not fun sure but its part of the game.you play call of duty 4 you spawn and bam a grenade kills you.the whole point of playing is to kill the enemy.the fact that you get points as a reward for kills already shows that you should kill.In warfare when the enemy has your prime node when you spawn you will die(if they know whats good for them).people will moe you down so that their team members will get more time to destroy your core and prevent you from getting avrils.you will die alot but you can still turn it around.i've been in matches where our team had 1 point left on our core and still won in a comeback.i watched the hypno deathmatch with the other guy and hypno was comboing all the spawn points he could on the map after he killed the guy as a safety measure.he wanted to win.its up to the other guy who did the same in his turn to avoid this and find his way to win.when playing you need to use every tool at your disposal to win.in ut3 your span with a few seconds of invincibilty which is more that i can say for most other games.

A side note!
UT3 IS DEAD should be UT3 IS HARDCORE
i started playing cod4 and after a few days i could reasonably hold my own.ut3 is fast and the people who play having been playing this for years.unlike gear and cod4 where you can pace yourselfor camp in ut3 you have to always be moving dodging double jumping etc.ive seen people go wtf **** this.you go online you die alot.you practice you still die alot.Like starcraft 2 people will buy that and be DESTROYED!i've played starcraft and just like ut3 most guys who are there have been playing for years.the wow noobs have no idea what they are in for.ut3 is the same.i never played any other ut but its like street fighter if you go to an arcade and start now you will most likly not be happy to get 2 perfects.People are not prepared for the pain they will experience.UT3 and starcraft is oldschool and games like cod4 and halo are newschool.ut3 is a great game the reviews say it.piracy,spawnkilling,bad menu structure did not stop ut3 from selling or stop people from playing.people what to play more realistic based shooters with bullets and at a slower squad based pace.ut3 is not the problem the market has changed from 2004.

PS after a year i still SUCK BAD at ut3.I cant blame epic I came in unprepared.

[Xyx]

are you saying spawnkilling has contributed to the deadness of UT3?

No, it brings in droves of players. People just love being spawnkilled. People actually quit CoD to get spawnkilled in UT.

[rhiridflaidd]

You misunderstand me, and ask the wrong questions.

If a server enables titans, I absoultely will be fragging every last opponent in whatever way I can, should me being a titan be needed strategically.

Spawnkilling is not an exploit- it can be a valid tactic, it also can be a lame way of generating points. The difference is all in the intention of the dominant player.

Did I say that it will "ruin the game" - nope.

I do think though that scoring in ONS is not perfect and is something worth thinking about. I also spent a bit of time in UT2004 helpiong work out which scoring tweaks would help teamwork - and then Shambler did the hard work. But this absolutely did establish that tweaking scoring does lead to more sporting play and a better game environment. Agressively adminning servers is not the way forward here.

I might be sitting in a turret, doing nothing for 2 minutes, then fragging a single distant orbcarrier. Doing that will gain me hardly any points, but it will be the difference between winning and loosing a round.

Do you want players like me to start spawnkilling is a better question.

[Trepænima]

And that "on the whole" includes such really common tactics as spawnkilling. Otherwise people will get frustrated and abandon the game, and that benefits no-one, because then half of the people that used to be winners will become the new losers... continuing the vicious circle and leading us to where we are now; near-dead game.

Uh... are you saying spawnkilling has contributed to the deadness of UT3?

rhiridflaidd, having read about the Titan pack and that Titan powerup, I can see your concern, but it's myopic to insist that spawnkilling/Titaning will ruin the game - that remains to be seen. Of course it's always fun to take new elements of any game, and guess what the most popular tactic will be - in this case, you're already equating this tactic with exploits and hence rules need to change to fix it. Besides, who's to say all of the servers will have the mutator on?

[shombowhore]

I only spawn-kill if people spawn around where I'm killing.

[Xyx]

being soundly trounced by someone isn't always entertaining.

There are always exceptions, and there is certainly no pleasing the people that care only about winning... but I do believe that, on the whole, everyone should have fun. And that "on the whole" includes such really common tactics as spawnkilling. Otherwise people will get frustrated and abandon the game, and that benefits no-one, because then half of the people that used to be winners will become the new losers... continuing the vicious circle and leading us to where we are now; near-dead game.