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Axon vs Necris maps

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    Axon vs Necris maps

    This is a discussion that was going on in a map release topic and I thought it'd be better suited for here. The discussion started with a comparison of Suspense-Necris by Bret Hart (a Necris vs Necris map) and Suspense-Necris by Epic (a 360 exclusive Axon vs Necris map):

    Originally posted by Bret Hart View Post
    Bah, I say an all necris loadout is better.
    Originally posted by AnubanUT2 View Post
    Well the 360 version is like the battle is actually still happening and the Necris have not gained total control. That is why there is still some blue skies on the red bases left side. Its the right side of the level (from the red base perspective) that is really dark.
    Originally posted by Tailsnake View Post
    Thematically it makes sense but gameplay-wise Axon vs Axon and Necris vs Necris work far better than Axon vs Necris. The vehicles just don't work well against each other and the "counterparts" aren't really good counterparts.
    Originally posted by Shadow Dancer View Post
    The point isn't that they're "bad" counter parts, it's that they NOT counterparts.
    The biggest issue with most Necrification maps is that people take a standpoint of "OK, so what replaces X Axon vehicle?" but you can't do i that way because that's not how they're supposed to work.

    The loadouts need to be balanced int heir own way. There's no direct Necris counter for the bender, for instance, so instead of picking one vehicle out of a hat to "replace" it, people need to think in terms of what the bender provides, and figure out what combination of Necris vehicles will provide or counter that.

    I think the mindset is to retain the map's original gameplay with different looking vehicles, but it's not going to go that way, which is why they rarely seem to work. Either that or people realize that the gameplay is different (which it will be, inevitably) and conclude that the map doesn't work anymore, when instead it simply works differently.

    People also seem to have concluded a few things slightly askew.
    The conclusion always is that the Viper is the opposite of the Manta, probably becuase they both hover, but if anything, the Scavenger should be the Manta counter (fast, fully agile, effective against both infantry and large vehicles) and the Viper should counter the Scorp (also fast, but not as maneuverable as the Manta, and somewhat oriented toward forward movement. Also, its self-destruct lands it solidly in the flag-run vehicle role, which is one of the Scorp's defining characteristics. It doesn't share the Scorp's anti-air abilities, but it's agile and fast enough that it doesn't need it...

    Those are the only vehicles that I can really draw any kind of direct counterpart relationship with, and even then it's shaky, so, instead of thinking of them as bad counterparts, don't think of them as counterparts at all. Just think of what the team needs (flag-running vehicles, defense, anti-air, air-support, anti-infantry, anti-armor) and place vehicles on each side accordingly, instead of thinking, "Ok, they have a Hellbender, so what Necris vehicle replaces a hellbender..." "They have a Hellbender, which provides close-range defense and light assault capabilities, so what can I do to the map so that both teams still have those abilities against each other? The solution may involve just removing the bender...
    Originally posted by Tailsnake View Post
    The bigger problem is that some vehicles just can't be balanced against eachother. The most pertinent example would be the darkwalker.

    The darkwalker can't be replicated on the axon side, it is a vehicle with the ability to scale tough terrian, it has a naturally high POV allowing it to snipe from far distances quite easily, it's hitscan, and most importantly it can't be hit by the scorpion suicide. The best vehicles to use against the darkwalker are the scavenger and the viper (vehicles the other team would not have access to in an Axon vs Necris map).This generally gives an advantage to the side with the Darkwalker in most Axon vs Necris maps.

    Other vehicles that can't really be balanced are the Nightshade and the SPMA and, to some extent, the hellbender. There are just no vehicles that can play those roles well on the opposing team.

    The viper is also a bit of an issue. You say the viper works well as a counterpart to the scorpion but that's easily argued. The Viper has a main gun with similar damage and capabilities to the manta, it is far more mobile than the scorpion (capable of travel over water, "flight", etc) and it even surpasses the manta in mobility in some ways (wall climbing). The vehicle essentially encompasses the major positives of both the scorpion (minus boost) and the manta (minus the excellent lateral acceleration) into one vehicle. It's a viable counterpart to either vehicle, it's usefulness actually servers to make the scavenger (also a suitable replacement vehicle for either the scorpion or manta) much less useful in comparison.

    I'm diverging away from my original point a bit here, what I wanted to get at is that it's not just the fault of the mappers, the necris vehicles are good vs each other, the axon vehicles are good vs eachother, a mix of both types also works but in the end Necris vs Axon is just naturally unbalanced. The two teams of vehicles do not create balanced gameplay when pitted against eachother.
    Originally posted by Bret Hart View Post
    Agreed. Axon vs necris always loses, in my opinion. Just look at WAR-Serenity_Necris in the campaign mode. Necris vehicles are FAR superior to those of the axon. Golath always gets raped by a nemesis while in deployed mode. The only real good vehicle axon has, is the manta due to its manuverability. I can pretty easily take out any Necris vehicle if it has a good driver.
    Originally posted by CryHavoc196 View Post
    Sad though cuz Necris vs Axon makes it feel like a battle, one faction vs the other kinda thing. I would love to play a Axon Vs Necris suspense... balance is a change but i believe the best of mappers can pull it off, quite beautifully sometimes.
    So what do you guys think about Axon vs Necris maps?

    If the necris get a fury, no fair. total rape will happen.


      I haven't read everything said above. I'll get around to it tomorrow when I have more time. I just wanted to post my 2 cents on all Axon vs Necris maps.

      I don't like them. It's a neat gimmick. It works in the campaign. It was mildly entertaining the first couple times I played the maps. Problem is over time people learn the maps and get better at them. The imbalance in the vehicle sets become apparent. Necris vehicles have a slight advantage over Axon vehicles. The stock map design almost seems like it's intended to exploit those advantages.

      Corruption: Long, narrow map with a large, open central area. Plant a Nemesis behind a certain rock and it's immune to AVRIL lock but has full view of half the map. It only has one weakness, which is usually covered by the Darkwalker. Axon Goliath is powerful but is always vulnerable to AVRILs and is a sitting duck for Vipers.

      Avalanche: Between the core and prime nodes Necris side starts with six Vipers and Axon starts with two Mantas and two Scorpions. The scorpions counter the Vipers to a degree, but still that's six high speed vehicles to four. Each side has one side node that is close to friendly prime, and thus easier to capture. Necris side is given the tank node. The tank dominates on Avalanche when placed in a couple strategic spots. Darkwalker isn't as overpowering and it's very vulnerable when Necris side starts with six self-destructing Vipers.

      Torlan Necris suffers similar problems, as do all maps that attempt to create different resource sets for each team. Islander for example. What makes imbalance such a problem is that there is an odd number of rounds. Islander for example if three rounds are played then one side gets the the more powerful vehicle side twice, and the other team only once. These maps are all still incredibly fun, there just needs to be an even number of rounds so each team gets an equal chance to win.

      One other problem with specifically Torlan Necris and Torlan Levi is that the sides don't rotate each round. Red side always has Axon; Blue side always has Necris.

      To sum it up:
      Axon vs Necris = Imbalance
      Even number of rounds = corrected balance

      This cannot be applied to vCTF, and since the scoring system of UT3 Warfare often results in an odd number of rounds there is never going to be a sense of fairness when playing an Axon vs Necris map.


        I like the variety of two vehicle sets on a Warfare map, though it would be nice if the number of rounds was tweaked as bclagge suggested.

        Avalanche and Onyx Coast are among my favourites, and I've honestly never felt like I was starting at an unfair disadvantage on a particular side with those because of vehicles (team balance is usually a much bigger concern). I'm pretty sure I've won and lost a relatively equal number of games on either side too.

        But I'm speaking as a casual player, not a pro. I can have as much fun (or more, if we win) when fighting against uneven odds as playing a perfectly balanced game, and don't care a whole lot about whether a match is 100% fair or not. I just find that having a different base and different set of vehicles to take advantage of with when the round changes makes a map far more interesting, enough to justify any minor imbalance there might be.


          I agree with BC. Just look at Corruption. With a good blue team, it is easy to keep the red team at their base. Have the Nemesis sit at the beginning entrance to the Zerk/Udamage and shoot away at any ground-coming enemies. When the Goliath spawns, the Nemesis can destroy it before it's even entered. If the tank is entered, it will take the driver a good 5 seconds before it has even a shot at the Nemesis. The Walker takes a position behind the rocks to the right of the Avril, and can go up and down to destroy all in coming infantry near the stinger. It can easily wreak the Hellbender and the Scorpion, who spawn way far back. Scavengers/Viper can invade the base and wreak havoc on spawning infantry, allowing for the on-ground blue team to grab the flag and make a quick getaway. Scorpions are unable to suicide the Walker, and cannot get around to the Nemesis without being destroyed. The manta can get out, but Scavengers and Blue infantry can give it a run for its money.

          The only plus to having Necris vs. Axon battles is that players will think twice about leaving their damaged vehicles behind. I'm sick of people not thinking about leaving their vehicles to the other team.


            Setheran, I agree with what you've said. A little imbalance doesn't get to me that much. I play for fun and having some Axon vs Necris maps adds variety to the game. The slight disvadntage of being on the 'weaker' side for a given map is offset but the refreshing change that a versus map gives. Although I wouldn't mind playing maps where both sides have access to a mixture of Axon and Necris vehicles.

            ZzyzX - Lol imagine if a full health Levi was stolen on Onyx Coast.


              I have to agree, Axon vs Necris = Imbalance = unfair to one side

              Also non symetric maps can easily give the tactical advantage to one side = Imbalance = unfair to one side

              For matches to be truely fair, maps must be symetric. That is, each team has the same exact resources and tactical situation.

              The Axon ve Necris is like the FLAG acronym, a nice cartoonish storyline. I cannot wait to see the movie.


                The balance can be made better without changing the vehicle types. For example, Onyx Coast is mostly balanced even with the crazily different kind of vehicles on the two sides. Removing two vipers from the core on Avalanche should make the map a bit more balanced.


                  I think onyx coast is one of the few maps that are well balanced, the necris have DW and Axon has the leviathan. 1 shot of the main gun is a instant-kill VS walker


                    The vehicle groups are not "unbalanced" per se. The problem is that they are so different that it's hard to decide which vehicles to use and how many.

                    Ex, IMO bclagge is quite right about Av. I'd like to see another vehicle at the base, e.g. a Paladin, or even a Cicada I've tested with a mut, and they work reasonably well.


                      Originally posted by Tailsnake View Post
                      Thematically it makes sense but gameplay-wise Axon vs Axon and Necris vs Necris work far better than Axon vs Necris. The vehicles just don't work well against each other and the "counterparts" aren't really good counterparts.
                      To be honest, I much prefer this asymmetry over just mirrored equivalents. The issue I think, is that mappers need to really think about how matches will play out with the vehicle sets they choose.

                      I look at the Viper as a combination of the Manta and Scorpion rather than just "the Necris Manta". It's fast moving, has rapid fire and low health, but it can self destruct, glide higher and jump multiple times. Thus, I'd be more inclined to choose a Scorpion instead of a Manta to counter the Viper.

                      Furthermore, I think it's better (though not always, obviously) to counter certain vehicles with ones other than their closest counterparts - such as one Nemesis vs. two or three Scorpions. I'm sure there are scenarios where this would be a nightmare but those depend on the map (its size, terrain, available weapons, etc) and the gameplay it offers.

                      This I think, provides a much better opportunity to really have a more involved and engaging match than just two identical teams on a perfectly symmetrical map.


                        I am sure some one could balance a map that is Axon vs Necris, it might take a couple betas though
                        but you would have to take alot in to consideration
                        like Map design, what vehicle to place to offset another on the other faction
                        People must remember that each side doesnt have to have the same amount of vehicles
                        so if the map has more advantages to the Necris (as they ussually do) then have more Axon vehicles to balance it out more (A numbers over power game, CLASSIC rts balance)
                        stuff like this make Axon Vs Necris maps more enjoyable and less one sided