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Axon vs. Nemesis vehicles

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    Axon vs. Nemesis vehicles

    Not sure if this has been debated before. If so then forgive me for rekindling old fires.

    It seems that on warfare maps that pit Axon against Nemesis vehicles, Nemesis almost always wins even with two strong teams. I see that going on in maps like Avalanche where the Nemesis team starts off with an ultra-powerful Nemesis, a Nightshade, and several vipers.

    Vipers can take out a Hellbender easily. Mantas are harder to hit with Nemesis vehicles but can't escape an AVRIL easily. Two self-destructs with a Viper and a fully-charged tank is dead. Compare that to a Scorpion self-destruct. Scorpion is not easy to take down a Darkwalker. Often times you go through the legs!! Against a competent player in a Nemesis, the Scorpion gets killed even before it reaches the necessary proximity to self-destruct and kill Nemesis, and even then the rapid fire rate of the Nemesis can take out a self-destructing Scorpion.

    Nightshade? Again in a competent players hands, it's VERY hard to find and you can't even kill the spider nests!

    Hellbender versus Nemesis? Same HP, but slow rate of fire for Hellbender, requires two riders to be effective against a very fast shooting Nemesis. Not only that but for the sky mines to be effective, you need to be within a certain distance.

    Nemesis against a tank is a better match up, but tank doesn't even spawn at the core in Avalanche.

    There are other maps that have this same problem. The Nemesis vehicles are just better collectively than Axons. Thoughts on this?

    #2
    Yep, the Nemesis is extremely powerful but has its weaknesses just like the other vehicles. On the other side of the coin Scorpions are great for killing Vipers, Manta's will run rings round a Dark Walker and the Hellbender is more than a match for the Nightshade, Viper, or Scavenger as is the Goliath.

    On Avalanche both teams can have a mix of Axon and Necris vehicles via the unlinked nodes.

    Comment


      #3
      Necris vehicles do have their weaknesses, but overall they're more powerful and versatile than Axon. Even though Necris isn't gauranteed to win, on most maps they tend to have the advantage. No matter what changes you make though, no map where the two sides start out with a different vehicle set will ever be balanced. I would like to see more maps where it's Necris vs Necris, or even a mix.

      Avalanche specifically I have one thing to add. Red and blue each have a side node with easy access from their prime. The one with easy access from the Necris side is the Goliath, which I feel is a more effective vehicle on that map than the Darkwalker is, thus giving Necris another leg up.

      Back on map imbalance, since there are three rounds if one side has an advantage one team gets the good side twice and the other only once. Great example is Islander. Red gets the vehicle side twice, which most people will tell you is the more powerful and fun side to play on. I don't mind playing maps without symmetry between the teams, but I'd like it to rotate evenly. Maps like Torlan-Necris and Torlan-Levi don't rotate at all for some reason.

      Comment


        #4
        It's an interesting problem too since the Necris vehicles aren't overpowered per se, they're just a really bad match to the axon vehicles. The Scorpion self-destruct is easier to use, but it can't hit the darkwalker and the nemesis usually destroys it. There's no real axon equivalent of the nighshade (I assume the stealthbender was supposed to have filled that role), and the viper can easily take the role of the both the manta and the scorpion. The only necris vehicle that I think is worse than it's axon counterpart is the scavenger (since the scorpion can home in on flying targets and self-destruct). I really doubt this can be fixed in this iteration of UT, it's something that would take a complete overhaul to balance.

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          #5
          A single scorp can be used to make the Axon team win on Avalanche. The Necris team is 6 Vipers short now

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by bclagge View Post
            Necris vehicles do have their weaknesses, but overall they're more powerful and versatile than Axon. Even though Necris isn't gauranteed to win, on most maps they tend to have the advantage. No matter what changes you make though, no map where the two sides start out with a different vehicle set will ever be balanced. I would like to see more maps where it's Necris vs Necris, or even a mix.

            Avalanche specifically I have one thing to add. Red and blue each have a side node with easy access from their prime. The one with easy access from the Necris side is the Goliath, which I feel is a more effective vehicle on that map than the Darkwalker is, thus giving Necris another leg up.

            Back on map imbalance, since there are three rounds if one side has an advantage one team gets the good side twice and the other only once. Great example is Islander. Red gets the vehicle side twice, which most people will tell you is the more powerful and fun side to play on. I don't mind playing maps without symmetry between the teams, but I'd like it to rotate evenly. Maps like Torlan-Necris and Torlan-Levi don't rotate at all for some reason.
            Wait, can anyone else confirm that?

            The maps not rotating sounds like a bug that should be addressed by Epic. I haven't seen it in any of the Patch or Community Feedback threads.

            Comment


              #7
              I think the problem he's citing is that if red starts on one side,t hen by the third round, they'll be back there. If you go for three rounds, that is.

              Comment


                #8
                I find the undestroyable spider nest complete bullsh17.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by theeDEATHMASTER View Post
                  I find the undestroyable spider nest complete bullsh17.
                  Congrats. Just kill the spiders until they run out. There're only roughly 15 or so of them, and they hardly take anything.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Harmatia View Post
                    Wait, can anyone else confirm that?

                    The maps not rotating sounds like a bug that should be addressed by Epic. I haven't seen it in any of the Patch or Community Feedback threads.
                    Originally posted by Shadow Dancer View Post
                    I think the problem he's citing is that if red starts on one side,t hen by the third round, they'll be back there. If you go for three rounds, that is.
                    Yes I am saying that, although separately I'm saying that Torlan-Necris and Torlan-Levi the sides don't rotate when the rounds are over. I have not specifically played with the intentiong of testing it, although I will now. I just remember thinking while on the Axon side that I just wanted to use a nightshade, but every round I was on Axon. Same with Torlan-Levi. The first time I played that map I wanted to try out the Levi, never having seen it before in UT3. But I kept being on the Necris side. Maybe it's my imagination. I'm gonna go play a round with bots and GOD mode and find out.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Yup, confirmed. Torlan-Necris against bots I started on Axon, and was Axon again in the second round.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by bclagge View Post
                        Yup, confirmed. Torlan-Necris against bots I started on Axon, and was Axon again in the second round.
                        Isn't this an intentional feature of the levels? This might be a relic of when Warfare games were envisioned to stretch across multiple levels, one team gets designated as the "Necris" team and stays Necris for the duration of the match.

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                          #13
                          LOL the 'nemesis' vehicles

                          Necris dude

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by theeDEATHMASTER View Post
                            I find the undestroyable spider nest complete bullsh17.
                            Here are we trying to have a interesting thread about Necris vs Axon vehicles, comes you with this insignificant remark. Why?
                            Like someone already said: Just kill the spiders until they run out. There're only roughly 15 or so of them, and they hardly take anything.

                            Overall I think Necris vehicles are better for attacking and Axon better for defending. Just look at Corruption. Though the Nemesis is a good defender too, DarkWalker isn't at all. That's why I don't like Necris vs Axon maps, but thats just something personal.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I think the vehicle "balance" is done to form some sort of Assault feel to the game type. One team's supposed to be attacking and the other defending. Tho with maps not rotating properly this, aswell, naturally fails for most part.

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