Orbfare

[Shephard0A]

Seriously, Helfdane, is this the 4th thread about the orb you started? Don't you think it was about time to cut it out already, they all go the same path, don't they?

[Helfdane]

I don't "hack". I play under Trepanima.eXe. I don't talk to people in Warfare pubs, but the few matches I saw you in, you made it exceptionally clear you were not there to play. I even switched to your team, where not only did we win, but took the next round into OT - and you still complained about hackers and the orb. There was no pleasing you, so it was pretty easy to switch back to my original team and have fun wrecking you, instead of dealing with you as a teammate. I think you left shortly after, instead of taking it like a man.

Actually, I haven't called anyone a hacker un UT3 yet, I don't recall playing with you, I only rarely ask team mates to shoot at nodes and don't waste time to type anything more elaborate than that, and usually only play a game maybe two. I don't recall playing more than two games in a row in UT3; I thought you were talking about 2k4, where I often played an hour at a time. You definitely have me confused with someone else.

I've played Juju.exe a few times, normally owned by him, but I don't recall you and the guy you're describing is someone else.

Hax were a problem in 2k4 because a lot of the 2k3 stuff carried over. If there's a similar problem in UT3, I haven't played enough to spot them yet.

Your descriptions of "hax" are laughable. "Quad damage and worse"? I don't even have to do anything here, you're doing quite well in the "public humiliation" department.

The hax were in 2k4, not UT3, and such "descriptions" would surprise no one whose played online. I think you should figure out who it is that you mean to be denegrating here and direct your attacks at them. It sounds like you're wrapped up at someone, but happily not me.

[...]You want to play no-orb? The maps suck for this. They're all linear, so once a team has one more node than the other, the outcome is inevitable.

No disagreement here. In 2k4 I prefered the professionally, game-delivered maps over most of the user maps, but the delivered maps are another big part of the problem for UT3. Linear maps are boring and irritating. Epic has a top notch graphics team and one of the worst marketing departments. For that reason, I posted these suggestions to try to compensate a little. Start a thread asking for multiple prime maps and I'll defend you all the way.

More resources = faster and more prolonged attacks on the remaining nodes, and of course, slower recovery time on the disadvantaged. Prime node becomes either locked, or dominated, which leads to one of two things - a merciful quick core kill (unlikely) or a server-clearing-level of spawn killing not seen since the days of z-path ONS-Torlan. Linear node paths are horrible without the orb, the start and mid-game grind may be fun, but end game is bad.

People want to "tweak" the orb, give it a spawn-timer, etc. Go ahead, I'm not totally against the idea, but given the orb's power on stock maps, it becomes a resource the enemy can manage, like a redeemer, or the shaped charges in Avalanche. Someone said not many people camp the shaped charge - this is not true given enough time.

Best solution? Maps with dual-primes/multiple paths enable the orb to be a factor, without being the center of success. Gameplay in this situation only changes by pace, not in objective.

Well it sounds like we're in agreement, then. I agree that multiple prime maps and at least a tweaked orb are likely to improve play times. Epic could have kept the crushable fire hydrants and half the extra vehicles if they would have spent the time on multiple prime, no-orb maps. I'm sure they'll fix their mistakes/failures and charge us for them like they did with 2k3 / 2k4. I just wanted to suggest what failure points I know of from my own view and those of other folks I knew from 2k4 who bought and also aren't playing UT3.

[DrUnKenSTeiN]

The orb is here to stay.Who of the epic people has the orb idea?Good job man.

[recoiledsnake]

I've stopped playing Warfare because of the gimmicky Orb.

[D2F[Leo]]

That's pure lies, especially since you seem to imply that I camp the tank at that node... would never do that . :x

[Rob.JW]

leo, my deemer kills you every time xD

[D2F[Leo]]

Yeah, the tank is the main factor on Downtown. Only way to take it out (once it made its way into the prime building) is the shaped charge, due to it's great splash + its silence and nearly zero visibility. Conventional weapons won't bring it down in there and the Redeemer is too easy to deny. Doesn't take an orb at all in there to defend the node.

@Trepænima: Nice post.

[bclagge]

I played with Helfdane 1 time, and he spent the entire match complaining about the orb.

bclagge: the Hellbender can get on that platform too. Tank on that platform is not the end of the game - a good strategy, but it fails against better coordination (but then again, in a pub, you won't find this).

Of course it's not the end, it just adds another painful step on a slippery slope. I didn't know the Hellbender could get up there, but what I'm talking about it how the concrete post in the middle of the stairs will literally pass through the tank and yet the Hellbender is blocked by it.

[Trepænima]

Do you hack? I rarely accuse players of hacking, just when it's really obvious and destroying the game. What name do you play under? If you were hacking and I outed you, I appologize. It's always nice to turn your hax off when you can see it's destroying a game....
when they are really overpowering the other players with their bot. Some hackers turn their hax way up, like not permanent DD but quad damage and worse, so benders to down with two or three flack cannon shots, tanks taken out by a single twin beam shot, etc., I once lost a tank to a single twin beam shot that went through a wall.

I don't "hack". I play under Trepanima.eXe. I don't talk to people in Warfare pubs, but the few matches I saw you in, you made it exceptionally clear you were not there to play. I even switched to your team, where not only did we win, but took the next round into OT - and you still complained about hackers and the orb. There was no pleasing you, so it was pretty easy to switch back to my original team and have fun wrecking you, instead of dealing with you as a teammate. I think you left shortly after, instead of taking it like a man.

Your descriptions of "hax" are laughable. "Quad damage and worse"? I don't even have to do anything here, you're doing quite well in the "public humiliation" department.

Orb vs. Tweaked/Sans Orb gameplay.

Not sure how many times this has to be brought up, but we'll begin with the "Redeemer" comparisons. Orb != Redeemer. Not by a long shot. Competitive ONS removed it because in a competitive setting, it was a subtractive element to the end-game. A good team can win without using the redeemer, against a team that chooses to use it. It is not integral to winning, but it did end up shortening end-game, which in ONS was already pathetically short.

The orb fixes that problem. End-game can be incredibly long and dynamic. Spawn killing is kept to a minimum. The longer the game, the more chances the losing team has at turning the game around, the longer the winning team has to keep focus. Of course this doesn't happen when a team is clearly over-matched, skill-wise, or strategically, but that is what should happen.

You want to play no-orb? The maps suck for this. They're all linear, so once a team has one more node than the other, the outcome is inevitable. More resources = faster and more prolonged attacks on the remaining nodes, and of course, slower recovery time on the disadvantaged. Prime node becomes either locked, or dominated, which leads to one of two things - a merciful quick core kill (unlikely) or a server-clearing-level of spawn killing not seen since the days of z-path ONS-Torlan. Linear node paths are horrible without the orb, the start and mid-game grind may be fun, but end game is bad.

People want to "tweak" the orb, give it a spawn-timer, etc. Go ahead, I'm not totally against the idea, but given the orb's power on stock maps, it becomes a resource the enemy can manage, like a redeemer, or the shaped charges in Avalanche. Someone said not many people camp the shaped charge - this is not true given enough time.

Best solution? Maps with dual-primes/multiple paths enable the orb to be a factor, without being the center of success. Gameplay in this situation only changes by pace, not in objective.

bclagge: the Hellbender can get on that platform too. Tank on that platform is not the end of the game - a good strategy, but it fails against better coordination (but then again, in a pub, you won't find this).

[Xyx]

I like the orb, I'd just like to go 5 minutes without having to take it into account once in a while. The orb is Epic's baby. It's the same with hoverboards, bloom and postprocessing; you will have it crammed down your throat, whether you want to or not.

I think it's a map design issue. The orb's over-presence is a necessary evil on several of the choke setups that ship with the game. Some of these maps seem to have gone to great lengths to center gameplay around the orb. If we had a proper Dawn (as in not Dusk) with orbs, the orbs would not be required to resolve the choking and you'd only run into half as many orbs simply because there are at least two places to attack. Also, if the orb only spawns at the cores, it'll have a longer time-to-node. Orb lovers can still play with their orb, orb haters can get some regular ONS done, much rejoicing all around.

Why can the tank drive right through the concrete posts but the Hellbender can't?

That is so an exploit. The tank's physics are messed up, allowing it to drive over stuff it shouldn't, such as the bollards in Downtown and Containment and the barricades in Downtown and Islander.

[bclagge]

Anyways, the only time I've felt like "this is impossible" is when the team isn't working together. It isn't that way by design.

Or when someone parks the tank up the stairs in prime node. Then you lose your best possible strategy (the tank) and it requires that you take care of the tank before capping the node is even possible. But I personally think that's a bug. Why can the tank drive right through the concrete posts but the Hellbender can't?

[commiecat]

In Warfare, Downtown and Torlan get played a lot these days, and once the orb is protecting that first node you might as well have your own orb up your ****. Your orb won't change the node, because it is protected everyone on the enemy team, even the lost players, are at tne prime node because when they die in deathmatch they respawn at the prime. When you kill the orb carrier, the orb just falls to the ground so anyone else on the team just picks it up and holds it and you're right where you started. And, happily, the node hasn't been shot because it was just protected, so the previous orb carrier is right there to kill again as well. Most of the nodes in Warfare are protected, i.e. most have structures around them, and again surrounded by enemy players, so it is far from simple to kill an enemy protecting the node. On Torlan specifically you can hide away to where you're practically untouchable.

I don't have much trouble in Torlan because the node isn't that protected. You can still send in vehicles; a good Manta run, a self-destructing Scorpion or a Raptor. You can also aim the Redeemer right at the node.

I agree that it's a little more tricky in Downtown, but it's far from impossible. The tank node is independent -- if the entire team is guarding the prime like in your example, it shouldn't be too hard to snag the tank. A few shells from that should clear out the prime building. I think the worst thing in Downtown is that the easiest way to attack the prime node is by flying a Manta in there, but the Scorpions that spawn there will annihilate them.

The Redeemer is usually camped but not many people camp the shaped charge. I'll grab the charge, fly a Manta coming in the "other" entrance (as if from the center node) and jump out and place the charge. Yeah, it sucks if they have good orb holders. I'll try to squash the orb with the Manta first. On occasion I've managed to squash the orb, place the charge and then detonate the orb before someone else can pick it up. Rare occasions.

Anyways, the only time I've felt like "this is impossible" is when the team isn't working together. It isn't that way by design.

[bclagge]

In Warfare, Downtown and Torlan get played a lot these days, and once the orb is protecting that first node you might as well have your own orb up your ****. Your orb won't change the node, because it is protected everyone on the enemy team, even the lost players, are at tne prime node because when they die in deathmatch they respawn at the prime. When you kill the orb carrier, the orb just falls to the ground so anyone else on the team just picks it up and holds it and you're right where you started. And, happily, the node hasn't been shot because it was just protected, so the previous orb carrier is right there to kill again as well. Most of the nodes in Warfare are protected, i.e. most have structures around them, and again surrounded by enemy players, so it is far from simple to kill an enemy protecting the node. On Torlan specifically you can hide away to where you're practically untouchable.

I respect your viewpoint on the orb Helfdane, but you do seem to have a knack for leaving out anything that may counter the view you are advertising. Downtown, I agree, good luck getting back the prime. Torlan, if you kill the orb carrier, what's to stop you from falling on the orb? It then spawns at the center node, or if your team doesn't have it's head up it's **** then it spawns at the enemy base, which is quite a distance from your prime. You're still going to lose because the enemy has both the tanks breathing down your neck, but how is that any different from 2k4 ONS?

The orb isn't the problem, it's single primes.

[Taboen]

Oh ok, fair enough. You've obviously protested against the Epic patches then because of the gameplay tweaks.

You do know that patches only fix things, not change things, right? Just saying thats all.

[Helfdane]

No, you don't. You visit our IRC channel, !add up for a game and wait for more people to add. Once the list is filled, you get the IP and password to a private server where you play. IRC channel link in my signature. Btw, where are you from? The European pickup won't help you much if you're American. :P If you are American, zerofrag.com should run pickups too on a regular basis.

Yeah, American, unless we vote another Bush this election, then I'll be British. (seriously) I'll check zerofrag, thank you.

]I noticed that the spawn prevention in UT3 doesn't work as easy as in 2k4 - a single shot at a node often doesn't prevent people from spawning there, could also be a different timer after that single shot, dunno. "Send in some deathmachters"? Come on, you play on public servers where you obviously can't find any teamplay (hence most of your complaints about the orb) and want to imply that you are able to force any kind of organised playing? That's ridiculous. Anyway you totally miss Nacher's point here and you're also stultifying yourself. He talks about capturing essential nodes (e.g. primes) with the orb - that is an important, central and working element in Warfare and doesn't need to be discussed. Now you say you'd "send some deathmatchers in" that are able to kill all the people around the node, but in the same breath you assume that a node-protecting orb carrier there would be unkillable for your deathmatchers and will defend the node forever? Orb carriers who defend nodes can hardly take cover and are easy to kill. Amen. Do you think people don't read your posts properly?

Yeah, I've noticed that too about protection not starting right away. I'm not sure why tweak that either. For me, I usually figure out if we have anyone on the team who goes in and deathmatches the nodes, then support him if I do. I'm often stuck without vehicles in 2k4, so standing far away and hitting the node with a shock rifle doesn't hurt the node much but it helps anyone deathmatching the node. If no one like you is on the team who knows to attack the node, then I have to go in to do it myself and just hit the node now and again.

In Warfare, Downtown and Torlan get played a lot these days, and once the orb is protecting that first node you might as well have your own orb up your ****. Your orb won't change the node, because it is protected everyone on the enemy team, even the lost players, are at tne prime node because when they die in deathmatch they respawn at the prime. When you kill the orb carrier, the orb just falls to the ground so anyone else on the team just picks it up and holds it and you're right where you started. And, happily, the node hasn't been shot because it was just protected, so the previous orb carrier is right there to kill again as well. Most of the nodes in Warfare are protected, i.e. most have structures around them, and again surrounded by enemy players, so it is far from simple to kill an enemy protecting the node. On Torlan specifically you can hide away to where you're practically untouchable.

[QUOTE='D2F[Leo]]You "obviously" know what to do? Because you say so? The only guy in here who seems to know you said that you're a whiner... Then go somewhere where you can actually prove that you have a clue. Anyway this passage is trivial, as it's only your personal opinion again.

...because I describe in detail what to do in the message, which is the low reading comprehension part.

It’s odd that he is supposed to know all about me and yet I've never seen his name playing. I've mentioned a few botters, but usually when they are really overpowering the other players with their bot. Some hackers turn their hax way up, like not permanent DD but quad damage and worse (at least here in the US), so benders to down with two or three flack cannon shots, tanks taken out by a single twin beam shot, etc., I once lost a tank to a single twin beam shot that went through a wall. That really makes it less of a game and more just entertaining some child with his hax, so I wouldn't consider it whining as much as standing up for the non-haxors in the game. We paid for the game too, after all, and they specifically agreed not to cheat when they accepeted the license agreement installing the game.

]Nobody has to have the same problems with Warfare. You're mostly arguing with players who know what they are talking about, you're skating on thin ice when you imply that people are noobs or idiots just because they don't share your view.

Again, reading comprehension difficulties arise in conversation. I point out the problems with orbfare and argue with your dismissals, not call you a noob or idiot. From what I gather, your reading comprehension doesn't get in the way of your UT skills. , and as you'll note, the letter is directed to Epic, not you.