Legality of map recreations for UT3

[upL8N8]

I'm trying to get some clarification on what Intellectual Property means, and whether recreating a map, such as a Halo map, from scratch using UT3 tools and textures is breaking copyright law. Nothing was copied directly from the original source. The idea and layout of the map was used, but there is no exact duplication. Also to note, the map is not for profit. It's a free download.

Now... mods... before you lock my thread yet again with some obscure post at the end that... quite frankly.. doesn't have anything to do with clarifying my post...other than making you feel like God, at least run the idea by the Epic higher ups to clarify the subject. Then, when you do lock this post, on the bottom write something like:

"Thanks for the great post. We will run the question by Mark's office to see what he has to say. Being the vice president, he usually can clue us in to the details on these types of matters."

See, now isn't that better

Feel free to comment, but no guarantee that the mods won't delete your posts again. Oh and one more thing mods, please give me the number of the rule I'm breaking... you know... for future reference.

[Rujman]

I'm pretty sure it's fine since you aren't making a profit off it. Plus, it's been done so much: The millions of iterations of Campgrounds in UT2004 and now in UT3 all originate from the first Campgrounds that was made by id for Quake.

[Draco]

its not a violation, its as if you painted your own copy of a famous picture, you can paint all you want, just like you can create something in Unreal ed all you want, just as long as you dont try to sell it, or make any sort of profit off of doing it, no rights will be infringed on.

[TheDeviot]

Under IP I believe you have to get PERMISSION from the IP holder before you can do it. If you make a Mario model for instance, you would have to get written consent from Nintendo Co Ltd if you wanted to distribute it.

IP holders are very **** a lot of times. Remember when Marvel Comics sued NCSoft because people were making replicas of Spidey, Cap, Wolverine, etc. in City of Heroes? Epic, and Midway likely don't want Bungie dropping a Lawsuit over a Halo mod because Microsoft decided that Halo map recreations were stealing momentum from Halo 3 (IE "People will stop buying Halo, and make the maps for unreal instead")

Even though nobody profits from it, the IP holder may feel like they didn't make money because people thought of your map as an ad-hoc thing.

It's one thing to share with friends on a LAN. But putting it up on a map site may bring about such concerns no matter how unwarranted.

One could try to argue that such projects may get people to want the originals and that's sometimes true, but in the end these people worry about getting taken to the cleaners over a trivial matter.

So unless you get an unwavering "Yes" from an IP holder just be original.
If some IP holders get cheesed over bad fan fiction, then it's entirely possible they'll waste taxpayer dollars taking you to court over a silly little map.

[Neobara]

Umm... no. You cannot get sued or held legally responsible for creating something that uses the likeness of an existing IP if its non-profit. If that were the case, webcomics based on actual characters (like Sonic, Mario, Superman, Batman, etc etc) would need written consent from their creators to use them. IP laws only come into effect if someone is profiting off of a licensed product. Has no one hear taken a Law class high school?

If the creator of a Halo mod map were somehow payed for their efforts, they could be sued, but that's not the case here. Same goes for mods in other online games... or even online games like City of Heroes were characters like Wolverine or Storm are customized with the in-game engine and paraded about in the game's cities. There are no legal repercussions for scenarios like this so worrying about them is idiotic.

Edit: Also, where's the logic in thinking that it's okay to upload such characters onto the PC version of a game but not the PS3 version of it? If it were illegal, it would be illegal on any platform, in any form, not just one. That's just flawed logic.

[btcomm]

Under IP I believe you have to get PERMISSION from the IP holder before you can do it. If you make a Mario model for instance, you would have to get written consent from Nintendo Co Ltd if you wanted to distribute it.

IP holders are very **** a lot of times. Remember when Marvel Comics sued NCSoft because people were making replicas of Spidey, Cap, Wolverine, etc. in City of Heroes? Epic, and Midway likely don't want Bungie dropping a Lawsuit over a Halo mod because Microsoft decided that Halo map recreations were stealing momentum from Halo 3 (IE "People will stop buying Halo, and make the maps for unreal instead")

Even though nobody profits from it, the IP holder may feel like they didn't make money because people thought of your map as an ad-hoc thing.

It's one thing to share with friends on a LAN. But putting it up on a map site may bring about such concerns no matter how unwarranted.

One could try to argue that such projects may get people to want the originals and that's sometimes true, but in the end these people worry about getting taken to the cleaners over a trivial matter.

So unless you get an unwavering "Yes" from an IP holder just be original.
If some IP holders get cheesed over bad fan fiction, then it's entirely possible they'll waste taxpayer dollars taking you to court over a silly little map.

Don't think you can patent a map design, hey it has a ramp, I made a ramp first! I had 2 ramps in mine right next to each other! You can't do that. I didn't think IP could extend that far how stupid an ridiculous!

[Mr Evil]

I think this subject became uninteresting after the first dozen threads.

[Neobara]

I think this subject became uninteresting after the first dozen threads.

Was a consensus reached that the very idea of there being legal issues with these mods is ridiculous?

[upL8N8]

I think this subject became uninteresting after the first dozen threads.

I only saw 4 threads overall. One was the map thread in the Full versions forum, where the issue started, which was eventually locked. Then, there was the thread in this forum that was a little off topic so was locked. Then there was my post below that was briskly locked. Now there's this thread... the only one that isn't locked. None of those threads really had a good conclusion.

It's a good topic, and hopefully the posts here will calm some of the fears that map makers have about re-producing a map from another game.

I've heard, a few years back, about a total conversion mod for quake 2 or quake 3 that received a cease and desist order.. but not sure whatever came of it.

Since then, I haven't heard of a company telling a modder to stop production. What ever happened with City of Heroes where people were making trademark superheroes in game and the producer of the game was contacted by the holders of the copyrights?

[Mr Evil]

Was a consensus reached that the very idea of there being legal issues with these mods is ridiculous?

No consensus, just people being stubborn. I almost get the feeling that some people here want modders to end up like all those skin/model sites that are periodically threatened by Marvel (I seem to remember one being shut down completely back in the days of UT). Laws are simply no match for lawyers.

...Since then, I haven't heard of a company telling a modder to stop production...

You haven't been paying attention then. I posted in one of the other threads about a Halo mod that was shut down recently.

[Bret Hart]

OMG just let it go already for the love of god

[Neobara]

So if modding characters that are patented really is an issue, why is it possible to do so for the PC and not the PS3? Point in case, it isn't an issue. Otherwise these mods would not exist for any platform. This is the argument i'm trying to make.

[jabo1SFH]

man, there really is no argument. recreations of maps from other games happens all the time. making them here in the unreal community will be no different nor will cooking anything to ps3 or xbox be an issue.


heres a few maps i searched for over in another fps resource site that i frequent:

americas army bridge:

http://www.dfbarracks.com/mapdb/inde...n=dm&mid=11881

quake III arena:

http://www.dfbarracks.com/mapdb/inde...on=dm&mid=3952

heres a map based on gael:

http://www.dfbarracks.com/mapdb/inde...n=dm&mid=17095

more unreal maps:

http://www.dfbarracks.com/mapdb/inde...on=dm&mid=4282

http://www.dfbarracks.com/mapdb/inde...on=dm&mid=2608

another unreal influenced map:

http://www.dfbarracks.com/mapdb/inde...n=dm&mid=15912

and another:

http://www.dfbarracks.com/mapdb/inde...n=dm&mid=13256



my intent here is to show everyone that there are no legal issues with regards to remakes of maps from other games. this has been going on for years in online gaming and will continue for years to come.


as long as you do not use the original content without permission, the remake you create in another game is now the new "original" content.