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    Let's talk about deathmatch

    I know there's a lot of fuss about Warfare, fancy vehicles, gimmicks etc, but classic deathmatch/CTF seem to get really little coverage. I don't actually know anything about CTF maps yet, and about DM maps I know that Deck is in, as well as phobos sort-of-remake and a dark city with a huge walker robot. Now we know that the game ships with around 40 maps, from which 13 are Warfare maps. That leaves 26 DM/CTF maps. If CTF eats up at least 10 maps, possibly more, we are left with less than 15 DM maps.

    Now, that Deimos map has some gigantic space cannon, negative gravity pipes and other gimmicks. Dark City has some huge walker vehicle, which is the main thing of the map. Now we all (?) remember the dissapointment with UT2k3, which had only 14 DM maps, and almost all of them were either gimmicks, lowgrav, too small, outdoor or lacking proper item placement/layout. I really do NOT wish that UT3 flops because it's ruined by too gimmicky map design. Around 15 DM maps is not much, if we have to include 1on1 maps, TDM-capable maps, bigger FFA maps and gimmick maps.

    So, does anyone have info if there are those "useless" DM maps in the pool, like supersmall training maps (like DM-Trainingday/Gael/Leviathan/Serpentine...), maps lacking proper powerup/item selection (DM-Oceanic), lowgrav jokemaps (DM-Tokara Forest/Plunge) or other similar maps that will not have any real use in online gaming, at least after the first week of release, and from the rest, how many of those have gimmicks like vehicles or gigantic turrets? 15 DM maps is plenty enough, if all of those are high quailty, polished and thought out, but in every Unreal tournament game so far we have had about half of the DM maps as "fillers". Kind of maps that work only to introduce the single player campaign, experiment with features/arcitechture or just are way too small/simple or lacking in item placement.

    UT2k4 has a lower number of filler maps, but even it had some maps that were ruined by simple mistakes. IMO maps that do not include full shield items are always wasted. Like metallurgy with it's one 50 shield. Who actually plays that map? Also Idoma lost it's shot of being an proper 1on1 map with having only 50 shield available. Of course this is debatable, but maps with no armor, full low grav and such being useless is not.

    I'm buying (or not buying) UT3 for 1on1/DM/CTF. If Warfare is cool, I'll play it a bit as well, but if it's gameplay is as unpolished as ONS, I'll skip that. I think UT2k4 was a really good 1on1/DM/CTF game. It was what UT2k3 should have been. Same goes for bombing run actually. UT2k4 was just ridded with the reputation of UT2k3 as not being suitable for hardcore DM/CTF, and a lot of people didn't give it a real try. I really hope that UT3 gets these things right out from the box, because if we have to wait for updates/bonuspacks to bring "serious" maps, it will be too late. Majority of the players would already be gone.

    Things I do like about UT3 are the high number of pickups (several different types or armor, amps, invisibility and even jump boots are in?) and the fact that weapons are powerful enough to prevent large fights, where you get frags only from finishing off dudes that someone else already shot with several rockets.

    #2
    Remember Quake 3 Arena? People were complaining that the maps in that game were gimmicky as well, but then iD software released pro versions of 4 maps with adjusted pickup/weapon locations. Quake 3 turned out to become possibly the most popular PC deathmatch game of all time.

    Even if UT3 fails to ship with maps that work, Epic or the community can tweak the maps and make them work. That's what should have happened with UT2003/4, imo, but didn't for one reason or another.

    Comment


      #3
      Excellent post.

      I too am wondering about the map selection. There will always be a few gimmick maps, but I'm really hoping for some solid 4v4 / 1v1 TDM maps this go round.

      A Liandri Core remake would be sweet.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Nacher View Post
        gimmicks... lowgrav jokemaps
        Well, those are the ones I like.

        I'm OK with them being in the minority however.

        Comment


          #5
          Deathmatch maplist from BeyondUnreal.com (it was seen an a video of the main menu):

          DM-Arsenal
          DM-Babel
          DM-Biohazard
          DM-CarbonFire
          DM-Deck
          DM-Defiance
          DM-Deimos
          DM-Diesel
          DM-Fearless
          DM-Gateway
          DM-HeatRay
          DM-RisingSun
          DM-Sanctuary
          DM-Sentinel
          DM-ShangriLa
          DM-Whisper


          DM-Deimos and the map with the Darkwalker in it may be gimmicky, but looking at how good the maps of UC2 turned out (imho), I'm pretty confident that most of the UT3 maps will be good as well. I heard Epic uses a better process in creating maps, where the base made of pure brushes without any graphic features like static meshes is gameplay tested, which is a good way to assure, that maps not only look good but play good and you don't get any eyecandy-only maps like DM-Inferno.

          Well, DM-Sanctuary in the Comic Con demo looked pretty cool, I can't wait to try it for myself. DM-Deck may also be an all time classic again.

          Comment


            #6
            I wish on a star that we could have gameplay similar to this again

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx6EyXOrRJo

            Deck rocks!!

            Comment


              #7
              I dont get whats wrong with outdoor maps...to say the least of my concerns.

              But its this kind of people that want blocky, plain maps with a "Shock here" and "a DD there" and "health packs on this side" that all-in-all make a map lose all its character. If you want that so bad, make your own bsp map and lay out your stuff.

              Im not trying to antagonize you (or anyone for that matter) but it really gets to me when people complain about stuff like this.

              Gimmicks make a map interesting! (HealPod, Pressure, and Fractal to name a few) But of course, you wouldnt want a gimmick in every map. Im pretty sure that there will be enough competitive maps along with some gimmicks thrown in to keep things interesting. But in the end, all we can do for now is wait...

              Comment


                #8
                I actually think that UT99 was a lousy 1on1 game. Just didn't work for that gametype, and I have experience of 1on1 since Doom and Quakeworld... UT2k4 on the other hand, is awesome for 1on1. However in TDM, UT99 had a slight edge due to great 4on4 maps and weapons promoting strong map control. Still, UT2k4 had a lot more of those "Whoa, what a cool frag!"-moments. I hope UT3 combines the best of both worlds.

                The sad truth is that UT3 is probably the last chance hardcore DM will get. If this fails, then what game could do that? Quake series is already out of question, as Quake 4 proved it, and I can't see any new hardcore DM games coming out. Just more of tactical shooters and oversimplified shooters like Halo.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by LANCE.xd View Post
                  I dont get whats wrong with outdoor maps...to say the least of my concerns.

                  But its this kind of people that want blocky, plain maps with a "Shock here" and "a DD there" and "health packs on this side" that all-in-all make a map lose all its character. If you want that so bad, make your own bsp map and lay out your stuff.

                  Im not trying to antagonize you (or anyone for that matter) but it really gets to me when people complain about stuff like this.

                  Gimmicks make a map interesting! (HealPod, Pressure, and Fractal to name a few) But of course, you wouldnt want a gimmick in every map. Im pretty sure that there will be enough competitive maps along with some gimmicks thrown in to keep things interesting. But in the end, all we can do for now is wait...
                  Small gimmicks are ok, you're right with that. Pressure was often played in UT99 4on4 matches, and Healpod wasn't a bad map either. But once we are talking about full lowgrav or vehicles dominating the map in DM, then the gimmicks are just too extreme for anything else than fun FFA games. Those maps have no place in serious clanwars. As long as we have 4-6 good TDM maps and 2-4 good 1on1 maps, gimmick maps are ok, but if almost every DM maps is kind of "experimental design", it will just suck. And this is exactly what happened with UT2k3. In UT99 maps like Morpheus were just refreshing and fun change for the basic maps. In UT2k3 there wasn't even one "real" large indoor map with proper layout.

                  One of the great things about Unreal Tournament franchise is that it just offers so much more variety and new ideas in map (or weapon) design than Quake, where oversimplification is the rule. UT2k3 just totally overdid that, and I hope UT3 is a bit more conservative in this matter.

                  Edit : The best thing are gimmick maps that actually play well. The gimmick may be an interesting visual setting/theme or original trick. Examples of these maps would be (both ut99/2k4 examples) Hyperblast, November, Magma, Skyline, Face, Antalus etc. While these maps might not be the most competive/serious out there, they were some of the most fun online maps shipped with the game. Gimmicks should enchance gameplay, not diminish it. I'm just really, really skeptical about vehicles in a DM map. Just doesn't sound right.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I heard Epic uses a better process in creating maps, where the base made of pure brushes without any graphic features like static meshes is gameplay tested
                    I've heard that as well. Apparently they took a much more HL2 philosophy to map design - starting out without textures (I'll try find the article). Basically walking around the map with all the walls as white. They then build up gradually, tweaking weapon locations, spawn points, etc. Add the non-essential static meshes into it (I mean the ones that add the little bits of detail - pipes, railings, etc), then texture it last.

                    It went something like that.

                    As far as the maps go - I find I prefer the maps in Quake 3 (some are bad, definately). But some seem much more memorable - to me.


                    Didn't Epic get some well known community mappers to contribute to UT2003 (or was it UT2004?)

                    edit
                    I dont get whats wrong with outdoor maps
                    Neither do I. Antalus remains one of my favourite maps from UT2003/4. Same with Torlan.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      WOW, just, wow...
                      Heres hoping we do get some useless maps for the rest of us to enjoy.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Nacher View Post
                        The sad truth is that UT3 is probably the last chance hardcore DM will get. If this fails, then what game could do that?
                        UT2004!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I agree so much with the general flow of this thread. I liked some of the gimmmicky maps, I'll admit tht online for UT2k4 I mostly play ONS or AS. Now ONS is full-on gimmick, but is pretty fun with vehicles and some ground based combat. AS can really go both ways, it could be really awesome map with no vehicles or minor vehicles like a minigun turret or it could be completely gimmick like, god-forbid, the race maps. But whenever I play online DM, I've never had a bad time at those and they can just be amazing. Action is fast-paced, no running between nodes, adrenalines pumping and **** its one hell of a high. Heres to hoping good old DM is still alive and kicking in UT3!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Heres to hoping good old DM is still alive and kicking in UT3!
                            Even if it isn't, theres a keen-as community out here that will make some great maps in no time.

                            The trouble is, that if Epic doesn't get the vehicles, weapons or game play right (somehow!) there are less people who could mess around with that and get it feeling right.

                            However, Epic rulez, and given their prior history, the game they will produce will sweet. I really doubt it won't get game of the year.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Guys, i think your forgetting there's actuley a mode for 1 on 1 , i bet they got some awesome 1 on 1 maps in the making, and from what i've seen of the few maps, the deathmatch maps look GREAT, if you watch some videos, and just ignore the gameplay and look at the maps, they look awesome!

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