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UT3 should be equipped with a "zeroping" mechanism

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    UT3 should be equipped with a "zeroping" mechanism

    as you may know, ping is one of the most important things in UT. i have a connection of 200ms to all the servers, so im suffering from this problem for ages. even in 20ms, its still bad, because the shot sometimes misses, only because of the ping, with high speed movements such as shooting someone while he/she dodges.

    i am on ADSL, i cannot change my ping, it is determined, because i am on a seperate continent. my ping cannot be improved, because the infrastructure on my country is extremely bad, even tough i am closer to europe, than the US, but still have much higher ping than a US player having to europe.

    i am a long term player. i had unreal, unreal return to napali, ut, unreal2, ut2003, ut2004.. the thing that the most distrubed me through the all time was the ping. because it, really wasn't fair, that a player from europe could win me only because of his ping to the server, while pure skills couldn't be on the account.

    ive made this post for the developers to consider again, the implementation of a zeroping mechanism to the game. even only as an additional mutator (a mutator that comes with the game)
    i know it is possible to do this with all the weapons, not only sniper and insta, and don't bull**** me it cannot be done, because i know it can. you could send the server the current position of the player, and the angles the shot was taking place at. while remembering with a short term memory where were the players at the last second, then going back in time, and viewing exactly where each player was <the ping of the player making the shot> time ago, then applying the shot and seeing if it hit in some way. it can also work for regular weapons , because this is not a hiscan, but simulating the outcome of the shot with replaying the positions of the players in time.

    don't tell me it doesn't work, because i am a programmer, and i made a similar algorithm for a little 3d game of mine, maybe a little hard to do, but it works.
    im sure much players would appreciate this, if you will build it until the release, because that is one of the main drawbacks UT had (not only UT, but FPS in general) and it would solve the gaming experience of so many bad connection players, like me.

    #2
    why would anyone claim ZP doesn't work.. it has been done in UT. have you never played on a ZP server in UT?

    the question is whether it SHOULD be done. is it fair for a player who technically has reacted in time, to get fragged a fraction of a second later anyway, just because your connection sucks?

    maybe, maybe not. to me ZP just never quite "felt right". it depends how well they code it I guess.

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      #3
      Hahhahaha ""Zeroping Mechanism""..... You can't blame Epic for your ping its all down to your telephone/ip company. Switch to another operator or just play ut1 w/ zp on untill you get a better connection. Hey, ADSL's were a hit in my country just 2 years ago, before that we were all on 56k's.

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        #4
        ping is an issue for all the FPS games, wheter if you have a low ping (50ms) or a high ping (200ms), it just never feel like 0ms. its a mechanism that should be normally done. and i don't know why it hasn't been done yet.
        your excuses are pointless, because you see im right, and it needs to be done. zeroping in UT 99 is not what im talking about, because its just a hitscan. im talking about a past simulation in order to work for all the weapons

        for my opinion, the term "ping" is a bad thing from the first place, and should never exsists in the gaming dictionary. its just a disease, a bad side-effect that should be enliminated, and only still here because of lazy developers that wouldn't do something to kill the ping issue.

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          #5
          Yes it's all because the developers are lazy and nothing to do with the restriction of technology and all these copper phone lines.

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            #6
            Not to mention trans oceanic lines with little or no hubs..

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              #7
              Games that I know that have clientside netcode(zero ping mechanism).

              Battlefield series
              Aliens vs Predator series
              FEAR
              Quake Wars
              Planetside

              As far as I know there could be more but this is will be the end of my list for now, at any rate these games play fine to me with ZP, You do get unregistered shots on all of them but in return and in my favor you don't have to lead with something that doesn't even have one.

              I'll play UT3 either way, but I'd really like to see something close to ZP. It bugged me allot in UT1/UT2k4 to have to lead with a weapon I shouldn't have to with only 60 ping.

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                #8
                Zeroping-like code may technically be fair but it does ruin the game IMO.

                Originally posted by itay390 View Post
                im talking about a past simulation in order to work for all the weapons
                Because firing weapons is all there is to this game? I think not. Evading your enemy's shots is an equally important part of this game, and Zeroping completely kills that by heaping all lag on movement for everybody. There is NO way to get Zeroping-like code to work for both movement and weapon fire simultaneously because the code for one would effectively negate the code of the other. The best we can hope for is equally distributing lag between both clients, and I doubt anyone will be willing to play you with an effective ping of 100 because you live 200ms away from them. If Epic implements that, we'll see how quickly server admins piece together a maximum ping mutator to automatically kick everybody with a ping higher than that.

                Bottomline: as unfair as it may be, your best hope for a proper game is playing a WW2 shooter or Counterstrike-like game where smart movement plays a smaller role (and now none because of lag compensation)

                Originally posted by Kronos View Post
                I'll play UT3 either way, but I'd really like to see something close to ZP. It bugged me allot in UT1/UT2k4 to have to lead with a weapon I shouldn't have to with only 60 ping.
                Your ping is 60. That means you need to lead with 60ms. As simple as that. You make it sound like the game is causing extra lag but the only reason you notice 60 ping is because the game is fast enough for 60ms to make a difference.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Boksha View Post
                  Your ping is 60. That means you need to lead with 60ms. As simple as that. You make it sound like the game is causing extra lag but the only reason you notice 60 ping is because the game is fast enough for 60ms to make a difference.
                  Your right, a much slower game would have less noticeable delay, but my decision still remains the same. I'd rather sacrafise having a rocket blow up in someones face and do no damage then to have to have the rocket be delayed.

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                    #10
                    That means your opponent has 60ms less to dodge whatever you're firing at him though. This may not be so bad for 60 ping (although I can safely say it's no fun at all with the flak primary) but for a ping of 100 or 200 things will get REALLY nasty.

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                      #11
                      Hah! I knew Boksha would be able to word a reasonable and technically accurate response.

                      OT - Every time I see the term written as "zeroping" I cannot help but allow my first thoughts to be, "Oh God, another player got zeroped" and "I'm gonna zerope the next guy that complains about zeroping or its lack thereof."

                      Technically, the term would be written as 0ms ping, not zeroping. Short version could be 0 ping, I suppose. Oh, this is just great, now I gotta deal with thoughts of people doing the 0ping and getting 0ped.

                      Okay, I'm putting the cognac back up on the top shelf.

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                        #12
                        Agreed. There's nothing worse than simultaneous deaths, and getting fragged when you had responded.

                        You might have shot me on your PC, but .2 of a second earlier I actually had jumped into a manta and was nowhere wher your headshot struck.

                        You can either play with a server's reality, or play with each player's PC's reality.

                        After playing both, the annoyances of random deaths from things you did not see or should not happen because of some PC somewhere thinking something had happened, and fragging me, far worse than accomodating for lag between me and the server.

                        It's well known that for 0ms ping systems, that dialup players joining really mess with everybody else's experience. So playing modern online games with ping >130 doesn't really work. Compensating just brings it's own problems.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Boksha View Post
                          Zeroping-like code may technically be fair but it does ruin the game IMO.

                          Because firing weapons is all there is to this game? I think not. Evading your enemy's shots is an equally important part of this game, and Zeroping completely kills that by heaping all lag on movement for everybody. There is NO way to get Zeroping-like code to work for both movement and weapon fire simultaneously because the code for one would effectively negate the code of the other.
                          you are right, but there is also a way to avoid this.
                          here's the problem you are talking about : for an example, lets say there is a corner, and there are 2 players. one is not seeing the other. one is with low ping, the other is with high ping.
                          the low ping can go to the corner , shoot the high ping, on the high ping computer - he will see the low ping shooting at him, he will try to evade but with no sucsess -> no matter if he evaded already, the low ping player already shot him, and its determined - because the command of the shot already sent to the server and in the server data he was already got killed. however, if the high ping approaches to the low ping, the low ping can see the player approaching, this time, the low ping could suffer, because if a missile was shot towards the low ping player, and he only saw that after 200ms too late - he won't have any chance to escape because his faith will be doomed, cuz the server calculated already where the low ping player was during the shot of the missile , and it was when the low ping player didn't even know about the high ping that's approaching him. those symptoms will always happen, because its very hard to make a system that gives true fairness for both. either the low ping suffers, or either the high ping suffers. it is possible to make a system which could wait for both commands to arrive , and then make a final judgement. but it will extend the validation time of the low ping shooter to the high ping shooter time. i won't recommend it, because it can be annoying for the low ping to wait for validation.

                          so, indeed, evading would get hurt a little, specially when playing vs really high pings, but i still think its better than the usual system. because at least in that -> when you shoot, and you see that you hit, you HIT! afcourse, its also an option to build the system that waits for both commands to arrive..
                          and i have to remind you, that in the regular "ping" system , evading is not possible for high ping. so you still have 2 problems with the regular ping system, evading and aiming. solving the aiming problem is already an advance. and i think even if servers would put a ping limit, its already doesn't matter, because a high ping wouldn't play in high ping servers most of the time.


                          on my experience on UT 99 with zp, most of the time players won't really notice it. but it could be also because its only a sniper. so you cant see bullets and avoid them.

                          what i meant on my second post - that ping shouldn't exsists in the gaming dictionary is true for most games, because slow games like counter strike , not to mention "supreme commander" are making an un-necesarry usage of "real time" ping, while they could do zero ping techniques, without that to impact performance on most cases

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                            #14
                            Are you out of your mind?

                            What you're suggesting is to implement a series of GHOST shots, that EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T SEE THEM, you still get hit with them. Ping is ping, you cannot eliminate it, otherwise shots will be going through walls, you'll be hit with nothing, and players who have dodged out of the way will be struck because they simply cannot dodge a shot from a player they don't even see!

                            I agree it does suck to have that high of a ping, but there isn't anything we can really do. UTcomp already has a bunch of funny registry, with teleporting combos, shots through walls, and shots that go right through the player, imagine a netcode thats even more strict than utcomp's =\

                            Compensation will only go so far to keep a nice and flowing game. If you try to over compensate everything, to "eliminate" ping... the game will play terribly.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by itay390 View Post

                              what i meant on my second post - that ping shouldn't exsists in the gaming dictionary is true for most games, because slow games like counter strike , not to mention "supreme commander" are making an un-necesarry usage of "real time" ping, while they could do zero ping techniques, without that to impact performance on most cases
                              I do agree with you there, slow moving games should take advantage of zero ping. UT3 is much faster than most games, but it can still use some ping optimization here and there, but nowhere near the level of optimization that you claim is possible.

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