Weapons locker - old and new

[Boksha]

Maybe that's the secondary fire?
Willhaven did say they didn't try a projectile primary.

[Modulus]

Well, Daimao, apparently I'm mistaken... Even though that post by willhaven that fuegerstef posted isn't very clear, it's good enough I suppose to go by that.

The thing that gets me is this... When you watch ANY of the videos you can clearly see the stinger projectiles moving across the screen. Quite slowly actually when compared to instant fire. It almost defys logic... I mean, just LOOK at it.... How could anyone think that is going to be hitscan is beyond me (that is, if we hadn't heard it from the horse himself).

[Boksha]

Really? I never noticed it.

That's nice.
Maybe you could fire up an Instant Action game and confirm it for yourself.

[!PaRaNoiD!]

AVRiL does

Really? I never noticed it.

[Daimao]

Primary fire IS hitscan, actually.

http://utforums.epicgames.com/showpo...7&postcount=19

His other posts saying this is over at beyondunreal.

That's good to know...I don't need another link primary-like weapon.

[Boksha]

I mean, the only difference short of the mesh, is the different firing properties of the weapons - ie; how the devs make them work.
And that is eminently editable.
[...]
What *should* make the difference between keeping & dropping the weapons is style.
[...]
IMO both the enforcers and AssRifle make a fitting starting weapon, (as long as it's not as powerful as a pea-shooter), so I'm cool either way - but it's just plain ole' wrong to suggest that the AssRifle could not be made to be just as good.

I've been trying to explain this a hundred times in Sniper vs. Lightning Gun discussions. Most people just don't seem to get it and keep repeating "OMG we should keep the lightning gun because it does more damage/switches faster/fires faster!". (yes, someone actually said that last one)

I obviously agree, but there's another problem with the Assault Rifle which lies in it's type of weapon. Being an autofire weapon, it's individual shots cannot and should not be powerful. In damage per second, the assault rifle is barely any different from the enforcer (at least considering all weapons in UT2k4 were weaker); sure, the enforcers did 25 damage per shot, but they fired maybe three times per second or less, meaning it did about 70 damage/second while the AR does 48 per second. What makes the AR so ****ty is it's low accuracy of course, but if it was accurate it'd still feel like a weak POS because of the damage of the individual bullets. (or more precisely: because of the amount of hits it takes to take the enemy down)
With a slow firing weapon, I think it's much easier to give it a good sense of power even if in actual damage/second or usefulness it's as good or even less good than a faster firing counterpart.

[fuegerstef]

And the primary fire is not hitscan...

,,,

Just wanted to clear that up.

Primary fire IS hitscan, actually.

http://utforums.epicgames.com/showpo...7&postcount=19

His other posts saying this is over at beyondunreal.

[Modulus]

The stinger is basically the minigun, primary fire is hitscan, secondary is not.

The mini was incredibly overpowered in UT99... During clan matches it was so easy to just run around known spawn points and take down freshly spawned players in less than 2 seconds with it... Additionally, you could bring down an opponent with the shield belt on with the mini in a few seconds if he was close and you could keep your reticle on him long enough... Amped mini? Forget about it.

Anyway... The stinger does not look overpowered at all... And the primary fire is not hitscan... It fires projectiles just like the secondary fire does and you'll have to take leading the enemy into account if you want to hit him with it at any significant distance... Because, once again, primary fire is NOT hitscan.

Just wanted to clear that up.

[Kyllian]

Minimum kick back? None of the guns had any kick back.

AVRiL does

[!PaRaNoiD!]

Good on pointing out most of the inacurate statements in the opening post, but there are a couple you missed:

( if you've played 03 and 04 you will be aware they have superior fire power, rate of shots fired p/second and grenade canisters , they flowed nicely with the movement of a character with a sleek and smooth design and most importantly had minimum kick back per shot fired ).

Minimum kick back? None of the guns had any kick back.

3. WTF possessed the team to take out the minigun and replace it with the stinger? iv never played the first UT but the whole point of the minigun was a constant spray of lead from a rotating set of barrels to splatter the poor recipients brains and blood against the oposing surfaces! theres allready the flak cannon, surly this is enough?

The stinger does the exact same thing. Also, how the stinger like the flak?

[Hedge-o-Matic]

With the enforcer, just knowing you were gouging out a quarter of their health with every hit made them worth using. You knew that one hit was a big enough deal that people would think twice before engaging, and so I think the enforcers were teh best spawn weapon even included in a FPS game. You could be killed using them, but you'd make them work (and bleed) for it.

Even if you wouldn't get an instant kill like a rocket hit, or a bio-rifle shot, you knew you were doing something, and so avoided the frantic feel of the AR, where you could keep your crosshairs locked and empty the clip at someone who didn't even have to bother dodging, because they knew they would very likely survive in any case. People can pretty much kill you at their liesure if you've got the AR. Not good, but after the enforcer, they were insult as well as injury.

[_Lynx]

guys, gals, and err...every one,
just a thought, whats the bio gun for in UT:03/04? i mean the most kills i've ever made with any weapon is either the assult rifle or the rocket launcher..the bio gun doesnt really serve any purpose for me in appearence or design its to bulky.

You just haven't seen it in use by a skilled player. The primary fire is rarely used, but the secondary is awesome - when you manage to get a direct hit with the goo on the target - it inflicts ~250 points of damage in UT2004 and around 350+ in UT2003/UT. Sometimes you may be able to get a kill by simple spitting the blob on the floor, but it's only the direct hit that inflicts the maximum damage and it requires a very good aim. It's good as a first strike weapon in mid-range combat, but then, if victim survived, you'd better switch to something that loads faster.

As for enforcers - the assault rifle inflicts only 7 point damage at one shot and it's pretty inaccurate. It's can be quite a deadly weapon but only when you have two of them and stand very close to the target. Enforcers have a slower rate of fire, yes, but they did 25 damage at one shot and had zero spread of fire in primary fire mode - that's a higher chance to survive.

[Kaikara]

Since everyone has already argued the Enforcer>Assault Rifle argument in my favour, I'll leave it at that ;-)

However, I think it's good to see the Stinger make a return- from the original Unreal. I loved the first Unreal (and was sorely dissapointed with U2) and I think it's good to see Epic remembering their roots. Maybe someday we'll see a true sequel to the original Unreal!! ;-)

[Raynor]

In conclusion - Enforcers did look cooler, they sounded better and were more efficient.

[BigJim]

I amazed at how many people have just replied Enforcer > AssRifle and left it at that..
I mean, the only difference short of the mesh, is the different firing properties of the weapons - ie; how the devs make them work.
And that is eminently editable.

If the AR has a crappy spread, then lessen it.
If it's not powerful enough, then up the damage.
If the nades bounce around & are useless, then make them insta-boom, or design a new sec-fire mode.
Simple.

This whole forum is all about discussing the various elements of the game, and then making them better.
We don't say "the jump distances weren't right last time, so lets take jumping out of the game", and neither should the poor performance of any weapons in 2K4 mean it should be dropped from UT3.

If the devs want a decent AssRifle, they can make one - no-one should be going around saying oh noes we didn't make a good AssRifle last time, therefore we should never try in future.


What *should* make the difference between keeping & dropping the weapons is style.
If the weapons can't be made to fit in the with look & feel of the game, then that's when they should be dropped.
You can always go back & alter the way a weapon works after the demo or beta, but if the very concept of that weapons doesn't fit into your universes' background, then it's never going to work, no matter what you do to it.

IMO both the enforcers and AssRifle make a fitting starting weapon, (as long as it's not as powerful as a pea-shooter), so I'm cool either way - but it's just plain ole' wrong to suggest that the AssRifle could not be made to be just as good.