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    Shock horror

    Reducing the shock primary rate will leave footsoldiers much more exposed. At the moment, I'll admit that they are way overpowered and makes the wonderful cicada incredibly difficult to use, and it'll take out most vehichles easily.

    But it's the same kickback from the shock that prevents those without vehicles, especially when building a node from being over exposed and an easy kill to roaming fast vehichles, that sweep in, rack kills and fly off. Dealing with these pests might be really tricky in UT3.

    As a thought, what could work would be for the shock's power to reduce with distance. So firing at a cicada on the horizon will tickle it and perhaps give 25% of the current dammage, but if you hit a manta that's just about to run you over, it'll still knock it back and take a decent whack of health.

    It might be impossible to code without over stressing servers; I've zero technical knowledge. At the moment, shock is way too powerful; but an Avril alone is next to useless.

    Just a thought....

    #2
    That is a good idea...

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      #3
      like it. but we havent seen the sniper or avril yet so dunno

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        #4
        The idea seems quite good and testing the distance shouldn't stress the servers.

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          #5
          Please don't balance my foot soldier weapons for man vs vehicle fights... That would just be ghey.

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            #6
            his suggestion would have no implications of changing the weapon balance for player vs player fights. damage can be calculated differently for players and vehicles, because they are different types of actors.

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              #7
              It's a good idea, but the ROF has been reduced to approximate a UT feel (iirc), not eliminated altogether. It's not like they made it a worthless weapon or anything.

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                #8
                Originally posted by Modulus View Post
                Please don't balance my foot soldier weapons for man vs vehicle fights... That would just be ghey.
                At first I thought sort of the same (allthou formulated less childish). But it might not be that wrong to have it like that in DM either, you allready have the sniper for long range. But I think it would be too upsetting for some so its better to keep it as it is. =)

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Molgan View Post
                  At first I thought sort of the same (allthou formulated less childish). But it might not be that wrong to have it like that in DM either, you allready have the sniper for long range. But I think it would be too upsetting for some so its better to keep it as it is. =)

                  Hupp... Hupp-huh? Uh huh... Ok, who's being childish now?

                  In any case, have you really thought about the ramifications of reducing damage based on distance in a DM setting? No other weapon does this... Why would you assume that the only reason to leave it alone is because some people may be too upset by the change? I propose, in addition to the change being ghey, that it could really ghey up gameplay.

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                    #10
                    IMHO the shocks sweet spot was the UT fire rate and damage. Two hits was a kill but it had a slightly slower fire rate than the 2003 model....

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Modulus View Post
                      Please don't balance my foot soldier weapons for man vs vehicle fights... That would just be ghey.
                      Ummz you know there is damage vs pawns and then there is a vehicle damage scale. So say you do 12-25 damage and the vehicle damage scale is 1.2 , that would mean you still do stock damage to players but to vehicles you would deal 14.4-30. Yeah thats in 2k4 BTW!

                      The weapons should function similarly but you are going to have to expect a few sacrifices because of vehicle play, I would still expect it to be better balanced then 2k4 as I find that DM in that is pretty "shockin" lol

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Modulus View Post
                        Please don't balance my foot soldier weapons for man vs vehicle fights... That would just be ghey.

                        agreed...

                        I say if you can hit a raptor at long range, then you you got 'em, peroid....

                        The knock back (concussion) effect is the real problem.....

                        My thoughts on the UT2004 Shock is that they shoulda reduced the primary rate of fire a little, removed the concussion, and make the cores slightly smaller, but travel at the same speed etc...

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by ShredPrince View Post

                          The knock back (concussion) effect is the real problem.....

                          My thoughts on the UT2004 Shock is that they shoulda reduced the primary rate of fire a little, removed the concussion, and make the cores slightly smaller, but travel at the same speed etc...
                          I wouldn't remove the knockback but I would lessen it. I can agree with the other suggestions.

                          One thing I've noticed is that the SR is the only weapon that's useful in just about every circumstance.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            So should I say, don't use your DM balancing to spoil my game of Onslaught?

                            Hitting a cicada at distance is trivially easy with shock. It's a hulking great big lump. Hitting a player isn't. So it is different, and the balancing needs to be different.

                            There's no doubt that something had to be done to shock primary in vehichle combat, because it was too powerful. Two good players with shock in the same area is overpowerful.

                            I just base the above on Hal's line
                            "The good news is that a foot soldier with a shock rifle is no longer the vehicle killer that it was in 2004."
                            http://www.beyondunreal.com/content/articles/180_1.php


                            OK A dalkwaker = Levi, and I wouldn't use shock against levi.
                            Tanks should wipe out footsoldiers - that's also fine. So hopefully the comment is made because the biggest vehichles was used for the recent demo, and the shock isn't useless against small vehichles. We just don't know, we can only guess. But guessing is what we'll be doing for the next two weeks.

                            But..... if it is useless against small vehichles, as it's currently built, and that we don't want it to be all powerful as in UT2004, then just perhaps this might be worth a spin into the ideas machine.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Maybe some of you will disagree, but I believe the shock is mostly balanced in UT2004 against vehicles (the only thing I think is overpowered is the RoF and only slightly). The issue is that a player that uses the shock/avril and is on foot most of the time is much more likely to be a bit more skilled, whereas players who jumped into ONS first or aren't too skilled will tend to prefer to use vehicles because it is easier. This gives the impression, in general pub play, that the footsoldier with his shock is more powerful than the vehicle driver.

                              However, having played with and against the best in Europe in competitive ONS, it is my experience that a skilled foot soldier against a skilled manta/raptor driver shows a proper balance, and that generally speaking vehicles will kill infantry much more often. I will also note that against the good raptor and manta drivers I have had the experience of playing with or against, the avril is pretty useless except in very close range combat (risky) or in specific areas in specific maps. A good player will also continue to be a threat after he has to bail out of his vehicle and continues on foot. A less good player will die very quickly, if he even bothers to bail out.

                              Similarly if you spec a demo/crappy server and try to observe the matchup between a footsoldier and a flying/fast moving vehicle or large stationary vehicle (in which case, the shock RoF and knockback is irrelevant, it just kills faster than lg and lg is more useful at long range against infantry, so you conserve ammo) you will see a balance skewed towards the vehicle generally. However, you will see much more avril kills, because the drivers are not very good and the footsoldier don't have very good aim.

                              In the specific example of shock v/s cicada, it is even more apparent that it is balanced: the cicada is pretty hard to kill with avril due to the alt-fire of the secondary seat. It has fast vertical movement and the lock-on feature means it will hide behind something after locking onto a node. The only way to counter a vehicle like this is with hitscan. Hellbender rear turret, Shock, lg, Defense Turret(which will die super fast against a cicada due to being a sitting duck). When you factor in mobility, it becomes pretty obvious that the only things that will kill cicadas often are the shock rifle and raptor missiles. The cicada has 600hp. That's quite a few shock hits, and if the pilot knows what he is doing and can't avoid the LoS of the shock-wielder, he will make it his first priority. And it doesn't take very long to kill someone due to the very large splash area and RoF on the Cicada primary fire. If he flies in straight like good old Leeroy then ofc he will go boom.

                              The issue in general is this: hitscan, with modern mice and connections is very powerful and even more so in a mode like ONS where there are big open areas. This is why the 90% of the time Hellbender rear turret(high damage + knockback) single handedly wins a map like Dinora if you successfully rush and build the middle node. This is why shock rifle (fast RoF + knockback) and defense turrets (fast RoF + knockback) are very powerful against lesser skilled vehicle drivers and the best option against the best of them. Lg has a slower rate of fire (less forgiving or aim) and does reduced damage that isnt that much higher than shock against vehicle and ofc it has no knockback. This is why it is the lesser option(except at very long range).

                              If you think shock is overpowered now, you will be crying nerf once we see a Nemesis or the new Bender rear turret in the hands of any mildy skilled player on a pub in UT3, I am pretty sure even having only seen them in trailers so far. I only pray that the Nemesis is truely in the tank class and thus can only fire more or less horizontally (needs to camp with height advantage and is moderately weak against fast air vehicles without a linker/sniper covering him c.f. avril/shock/linker assisting the camping tank on torlan centre after reaching the end game in UT2004 ONS). The fact it can "crouch" (from what I understand) will make it even better for hitscan camping (+loads of armour + self-repair without needing to go collect health + infinite ammo + high RoF + knockback). Much better than the usual Bender in the hills or Bender in the trees.

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