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Necris vehicles look cool, but that seems about it

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  • Necris vehicles look cool, but that seems about it

    I've seen three Necris vehicles so far: Darkwalker, Viper and Nemesis. They look awesome! The art department did an absolutely spectacular job on them. Each machine looks wicked and sleek, you see all the working parts move...

    But then there's gameplay.

    Credit where credit is due: the Darkwalker tri-tentacle movement is cool. But read on.
    • Darkwalker main guns: War of the Worlds style "layzurs". Wow.
    • Darkwalker support turret: More "layzurs". Yay.
    • Nemesis cannons: "layzurs". Anybody seeing a pattern here?

    And then there's the Viper:
    • It hovers like a Manta.
    • It jumps and floats like a Manta.
    • It self-destructs like the new Scorpion.
    Does this thing even have any original features?

    I really hope the other Necris vehicles will be a bit more inspired and on par with the rest of the UT series armament. The UT2004 vehicles at least have the skymines and the energy bola, both exotic weapon concepts not seen in other games.

  • #2
    From Joe Wilcox: http://utforums.epicgames.com/showpo...4&postcount=85

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't mind having the lasers for the dark walker definately not stolen from anywhere driver because there is nothing in UT like that, but from then on I think they do need to have more original things.

      Maybe they could make some stuff up about antimatter or something (and/or research a bit).

      Comment


      • #4
        Also, do remember that it's very hard to balance out vehicles that are very different..

        You've done a lot of vehicle coding Xyx, so surely you must understand that it's esier to ensure the teams are fair when you've got one side with a manta, and the other side with summat very similar to a manta - it's easier to argue that the Scorp's carbomb is fair, if the enemy has something *roughly* the same (be it on a different light vehicle in this case..).

        I'm not so much on about how we explain these features away in the fluff material, I'm on about the mechanics of the weapons & features, and how they work in-game.

        If all the vehicles are totally unique in every way, and have such wide variation between weaps, cool features, armour, speed & the like, then how do you work out what vehicle loadout is fair or a map, and what's not?
        In-house playtesting can only take you so far.

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        • #5
          im just concerned about the nemesis
          it looks to big for its wepons

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          • #6
            Well, Necris doesn't have a Scorpion type vehicle, rofl, its the hoverbike, Manta and Scorpion in a blender. Oh I read somewhere the Hoverbike can only glide when its wings are spread, the Manta can do it nearly all the time.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Xyx
              I've seen three Necris vehicles so far: Darkwalker, Viper and Nemesis. They look awesome! The art department did an absolutely spectacular job on them. Each machine looks wicked and sleek, you see all the working parts move...

              But then there's gameplay.

              Credit where credit is due: the Darkwalker tri-tentacle movement is cool. But read on.
              • Darkwalker main guns: War of the Worlds style "layzurs". Wow.
              • Darkwalker support turret: More "layzurs". Yay.
              • Nemesis cannons: "layzurs". Anybody seeing a pattern here?

              And then there's the Viper:
              • It hovers like a Manta.
              • It jumps and floats like a Manta.
              • It self-destructs like the new Scorpion.
              Does this thing even have any original features?

              I really hope the other Necris vehicles will be a bit more inspired and on par with the rest of the UT series armament. The UT2004 vehicles at least have the skymines and the energy bola, both exotic weapon concepts not seen in other games.
              Hows about you create something out of the box and innovative plus balanced with something thats different, besides your current projects? I tried your vehicles with Epic stock ones, stock ones got owned.

              Comment


              • #8
                Look at it from an Unreal standpoint.... we already have a tank, a hovering bomber, hovercraft, little dune buggy, a recreational vehicle covered in guns, the biggest vehicle ever, etc. all in the Axon lineup. Historically, they're things we're all familiar with.

                Now, the concept that we have for what can be "alien" is pretty limited... you can create thousands of vehicles that can fit under said description but many of them would be difficult to understand and not as effective as things we're familiar with. You look at a Darkwalker, and intuitively, you understand how it works.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Flak
                  Oooh, I get it! They all just look like "layzurs", but actually they're something totally different, right? Right?

                  Originally posted by BigJim
                  Also, do remember that it's very hard to balance out vehicles that are very different..
                  No harder than balancing out similar vehicles. It's a matter of tweaking numbers until it "feels" right. You have to do this for similar vehicles just the same.

                  I refer you to any of the "LG VS sniper" threads.

                  Originally posted by Hanji
                  Hows about you create something out of the box and innovative plus balanced with something thats different, besides your current projects?
                  Besides? Sure, I'll get right on it after I clone myself. Hang in there.

                  Originally posted by Hanji
                  I tried your vehicles with Epic stock ones, stock ones got owned.
                  So your team won an Onslaught match with them, right? And you would have lost if you had used Axon vehicles? Try a mirror match: you with Axon against XS. XS will get owned. And that then would prove... exactly nothing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Xyx

                    No harder than balancing out similar vehicles. It's a matter of tweaking numbers until it "feels" right. You have to do this for similar vehicles just the same.
                    Well, yes harder than balancing similar vehicles if we're being honest, since isntead of comparing like for like, we're comparing like for un-like..

                    Not to say it's not doable, just - harder - and open to *much* more complaining from us players, look at how many moans you get about asymmetrical maps, and then multiply that by however many vehicle matches get played each day.

                    When it comes to juggling numbers, for every player to whom it feels right, bet your bum there's another out there who thinks it's wrong, and even if you've got the balance perfect, it may well turn out to be totally different if you test on a different style of map, with different tactical features etc..; the one and only thing that no-one can argue with is if the vehicle loadout per map is identical for each team - just like no-one can claim a terrain advantage in a totally symmetrical map.

                    Anything else can, and will, have folks arguing that one is better than the other - it's human nature, the grass is greener & all that.

                    Personally, I'd be entirely happy if both team's the vehicles were identical, as they are now, with just different models/effects/animations, etc.. to make them look different, but I'm pretty easy to please, and of course if Epic pull off a stunner, and get the vehicles balanced and unique at the same time, then I'll be all for it.

                    Anywhoo, just my thoughts, I might be wrong of course.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BigJim
                      Well, yes harder than balancing similar vehicles if we're being honest, since isntead of comparing like for like, we're comparing like for un-like..
                      The Leviathan and Darkwalker are already fundamentally unlike, making the entire vehicle sets fundamentally unlike, so you're already comparing like for unlike. Might as well follow through. I don't see how saying "but at least the Manta has an equivalent" helps the vehicle balance when one side gets a Leviathan and another a Darkwalker.

                      Besides, it is still very unclear whether there will actually be mirrored Axon VS Necris maps. My bet is those maps will not be ONS but only the Warfare thing, and they won't be symmetrical to begin with. So that's even more unlike. Then why bother keeping the remaining vehicles like?

                      Originally posted by heh
                      Good luck trying to do that anyway from a movie that 90% of the time shows some dimwit getting in and out of vehicles.
                      I am not dissecting functionality as much as theme. If all weapons look like "layzurs", there's only so many things you can do with them.

                      Unless of course these "layzurs" are just placeholders for more interesting weaponry. In which case I wonder why Epic bothers to show the weapons firing.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yeah I thought there were a bit too many lasers myself. In UT2004 all the vehicles were quite different and the only two similar weapons were the plasma cannons on the manta and raptor.

                        In UT2007 there seems to be a few things with rapid fire lasers (like the ruined hellbender turret. RIP) or slow uber ones like the one on the tripod.

                        I like the idea of different weapons + Shields on the levi. Although I think it's pretty lame that the side rocket launcher fires auto-targeting rockets (as can be seen at the end of the recent trailer).

                        I understand they didn't want all the vehicles to be the same in functionality on both sides, but have to replicate roles and hence some functionality is bound to be similar for some vehicles. E.g the HoverBike being similar to the manta (which is a hover bike and is labelled as such in the code iirc) in movement somewhat and having the kamikaze functionality of the scorpion. Btw I really hope they realise people will do double and triple kamikaze runs at nodes and that they balance the explosion so 3 of them cannot kill a node. If 3 of them come in, your defenders can probably only take 1 out before the other 2 reach the node. A repeat of the early kamikaze deemer runs that the community had to remove to prevent the game from being a deemer race at the start and a total lockdown for the winning team at the end would be very bad.

                        Another thing: I don't think the DarkWalker is the equivalent of the Leviathan. Notice how there are several of them in the map we are shown. Given their slow ROF, I would guess they have similar DPS to a Goliath and that we haven't seen the Necris super-vehicle yet. Nor have we seen Necris flying vehicles. Out of the 9 Necris vehicles we have only seen 3. I am sure not all of the other 6 will have lasers. Some will have plasma (yay for originality!) and others will have unique unseen-before fire-modes just like something like the scorpion bola or bender skymines are pretty unique. And I guess they are keeping the most original ones for last either to impress people more or because they haven't finished them yet.

                        To be fair, if the functionality of a weapon requires it to be hitscan, there isn't much choice in a sci-fi arcade-style game than to make said weapon some sort of laser or energy beam. Btw I want an EMP vehicle. It would have a slow ROF but would disable another vehicle it fires on, for up to maybe a third the duration of its weapon's cooldown. So you could shoot a manta to allow your team to kill it. Make a raptor drop like a fly from the sky for a bit. Prevent a Goliath from finishing your team's node etc... Ok maybe not, it would be too powerful. ^_^

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by =XM=
                          I understand they didn't want all the vehicles to be the same in functionality on both sides, but have to replicate roles and hence some functionality is bound to be similar for some vehicles.
                          Whatever set you plunk down, roles will quickly be decided.

                          I think it's even more interesting to have different roles. Why does every set have to contain a buggy, a truck, a tank, a helicopter and some mobile fortress?

                          Originally posted by =XM=
                          if the functionality of a weapon requires it to be hitscan, there isn't much choice in a sci-fi arcade-style game than to make said weapon some sort of laser or energy beam.
                          What's wrong with bullets? Doesn't have to be a regular cased round... Think solid rail slug, tarydium shard, acid capsule, compressed air packet, shredded plastic, toxic needle, micro-rocket...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Xyx
                            Oooh, I get it! They all just look like "layzurs", but actually they're something totally different, right? Right?

                            No harder than balancing out similar vehicles. It's a matter of tweaking numbers until it "feels" right. You have to do this for similar vehicles just the same.

                            I refer you to any of the "LG VS sniper" threads.

                            Besides? Sure, I'll get right on it after I clone myself. Hang in there.

                            So your team won an Onslaught match with them, right? And you would have lost if you had used Axon vehicles? Try a mirror match: you with Axon against XS. XS will get owned. And that then would prove... exactly nothing.
                            Are you kidding, when I say I test them, I use them on my team.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=551425

                              Post your suggestions for how the Necris vehicle weapons could be cooler in that thread.

                              Comment

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