Modelling questions

[Setheran]

I'm trying to make my first bits of architecture in 3DSMax and was wondering about a few things.

How do people generally go about making sure each piece of architecture they create is exactly the right shape and size? I already have a BSP layout of my map done with lots of basic shapes acting as placeholders for the meshes I want to create, so I was wondering if it was possible (or worthwhile) to import a BSP layout into Max to use as a template for modelling?

Also along those lines, is it wise to import and place all the models in your map with no material initially, leaving textures and UV mapping until the last minute, or are the drawbacks to working this way? The main reason would be to get any necessary updates to their shapes out of the way before worrying about materials.

Finally, I'm struggling a bit with the grid in Max. Through this tutorial (thanks, DG) I've managed to get a grid that matches unreal units and allowed me to import a basic test shape that fit perfectly, but how do you stay on the grid when moving vertices around? Or snap edges/verts back to the grid if they stray off it? It all feels quite clumsy at the moment.

Any advice would be really helpful.

[Nawrot]

Yes it is possible to import CSG layout into max:

Surround your geometry with big building brush then do intersect, you get building brush that has shape of CSG geometry. Then export that brush as "t3d" file. You need t3dtoobj tool (its small quite old from UT99 era), convert brush into obj and import to max. There are some newer shareware programs to convert but they mess brushes.

AS to UV and materials. Best is to apply some basic UV mapping and apply material that is similar to your planned final one. This way you get better feel of map during construction.

[DGUnreal]

Personally I just look at what my map requires and then create the StaticMeshes in Max using clean grid layouts like you would with CSG. Using StaticMeshes has the advantages though of smoothing groups and higher poly counts, etc.

In the Grid and Snap Setting:
- make sure your Snaps for Grid Points is checked
- set Grid to 16 and Major Lines at 8, then modify Grid by powers-of-two as required, ie. 8, 4, 2

Make sure the Snaps Toggle toolbar button is on (and usually set to 3D which is the one with the small 3 in the corner).
Make sure the Angle Snap Toggle toolbar button is on. The angle defaults to 5 degrees but can be changed in the Grid and Snap Settings.

If you are using Max 2008/2009 be aware that it has a bug and the Snaps Toggle toolbar button doesn't get retained between sessions or in the .max files so you always have to re-click it back on everytime you start Max.


To snap verts back onto the grid, go to the Grid and Snap Setting and also check the Vertex option. I toggle this off and on only as I need it.
Note that Max doesn't always handle vertex snapping well, so you are always best to make sure that you create new objects on-grid and always edit them on-grid with Snaps Toggle on.
With UE3 this is even more important since the occlusion and culling system relies on geometry that properly "snaps" together. A small space between wall segments for example may result in everything behind the wall getting rendered.


Also be aware that Max's 0,0,0 origin is the pivot point for meshes in UnrealEd. Plus the XY is rotated comparatively between the two.
So be sure to always position your Max objects where you want them relative to the origin when creating them and before you export to .ase or your pivot will be off.


I often do a basic UV on each object, sometimes just with a similar simple texture style, then import it in and check out how it looks, then go back and fix up any UV properties and make sure it is exactly what I want before I create the lightmap UV. Lightmap UVs are a pain because depending on the object, you have to make sure to reduce or hide any seams from the visible sides or they may show up as bad lighting on the mesh.


I also try to maintain the entire Max stack whenever possible, so that I can go back and make changes to the previous modifiers if I have to. In some cases though you will have no choice but to collapse the stack at a certain point. Often I will have two or three files for a mesh, which might be the source one with the intact stack, another with collapsed stack and some tweaking and another with the unwrapped UVs over a collapsed object.

Be sure to totally collapse all stacks and attach all objects together to have a single editable mesh object before exporting, with the exception of UCX_ simplified collision primitives which remain separate.

[Setheran]

Thanks, this is very helpful.

I'm enjoying using Max so far; I just wish I'd gotten into it sooner.

[Setheran]

One more quick question: when modelling, what's the best method for fusing objects together so that they can be exported as one clean and efficient mesh? So far I've mostly been using the ProBoolean feature to "union" objects together, but after that I often have to spend a lot of time cleaning up the unnecessary vertices it likes to spawn along certain edges. Are there any other methods for combining shapes neatly?

[svcoyle]

The best way to unify meshes is to plan for it at the beginning by extruding, beveling etc. You dont necessarily have to union meshes together into one mesh you can just attach them together. Like if you are exporting a monitor with a computer at the same time. Ive found using boolean usually leaves a gigantic mesh that needs to be cleaned up after every cut

To get your bsp into max simply go to file->export->export all and then choose .obj

max can import obj's

[DGUnreal]

The proper method for StaticMeshes is as follows (you can vary on one or two steps here depending on the exact mesh object you are creating).

The object must be one single Editable Mesh before you can use the UnwrapUVW to create the lightmap UV set, so you have a lot remaining to do at this point if you are only combining and exporting.


Complete the entire mesh design, create all texture UVs, create all simplified collision UCX_* primitives. UCX_* primitives don't require materials or UV's.

Save this as the base completed mesh object.

Then select all mesh objects except the UCX_* collision primitives.
On the Utilities tab click on Collapse, Output Type of Modifier Stack Result, then click on Collapse Selected.
Then unselect all mesh objects except one that you want to be the base object (doesn't really matter too much which one in most cases so long as it isn't one of the UCX_ objects).
On the Modify tab for that mesh object click on the AttachList button, when the List dialog pops up select all other mesh objects that you want attached to it. Don't attach the UCX_* collision primitives, they are always exported as individual entities.

Now you can create the UnwrapUVW lightmap UV set on Channel 2 for the single Editable Mesh object.

Save this as the lightmapped mesh object.

Export it as an .ase file.

[Setheran]

Thanks for that, although I was asking more along the lines of creating the actual models rather than the process of exporting them. I noticed, for example, that all of Epic's meshes are completely hollow, but if I create models made up of various objects and then just attach them they'll end up with unnecessary faces and vertices on the inside where things overlap. So I was wondering if there was a method besides using ProBoolean for combining shapes into one while keeping them free of clutter.

This is what I've got so far, if anyone's interested:



The plan is to have the pillars and their bases as seperate meshes, then merge the five arches with the ceiling as one big mesh, but I'm not looking forward to the amount of tidying up I'd have to do after unioning such complex shapes together.

Is there a way to copy and paste objects from one Max file to the other, as well? I tried doing it by exporting and then importing but for some reason the editable poly imported as an editable mesh with extra edges all over the place.

[DGUnreal]

I don't mean any offense in this statement, I would recommend learning more about actual mesh modeling using extrusion and box-modeling. There are many tutorials around including some with the Max documentation. For many regular game mesh objects those are the techniques often used. I use face extrusion a lot.

You almost never want to use Boolean since it almost always results in a final mesh that requires a lot of cleanup.

For objects such as columns there is no difference in the triangle count for whether you use seperate cylinders at the "stepping" levels (ie. the different diameter sections) or whether you use a boolean or extrusion to create them as a single object.
In other words, an 8-sided cylinder has a cap of 8 triangles, a booleaned column step has 8 cap triangles, an extruded column step has 8 cap triangles.
The only disadvantage to using two separate cylinders stacked and then attached is that the vertices are not welded so it has a slight performance hit. Plus with per-vertex lighting it won't look as good since the cap center vertex is hidden under other geometry. So you would want to face extrude the cylinder cap and use the non-uniform scale to then adjust each section's diameter.
There are cases where you would want to keep the cylinder caps intact, such as exporting the column as individual pieces. If you performed a boolean or extrusion, then selected the section faces and detached them for export as a separate staticmesh piece, it will have open edges which you want to avoid. So two separate closed cylinders are best in this scenario.


Use Merge to import a portion or all of another Max file.

Thanks for that, although I was asking more along the lines of creating the actual models rather than the process of exporting them. I noticed, for example, that all of Epic's meshes are completely hollow, ...

Is there a way to copy and paste objects from one Max file to the other, as well?

[Setheran]

No offence taken at all; I only started modelling a few days ago, so I still barely know what I'm doing.

I've already been though quite a few of tutorials, but the trouble is that they tend to only tell you the hows and not the whys, which is why the advice I've been picking up here has been useful. I'll see what I can find on box-modelling and such before going further with what I'm trying to do.

[TheDragonzord]

Okay seeing as this Topics called modelling questions, would it be at all possible...to use particle emitters.....to make a character who is in fact, steaming, or in parts on fire?
If this is too rude of me then disregard this question..

[DGUnreal]

... they tend to only tell you the hows and not the whys ...
I'll see what I can find on box-modelling and such before going further with what I'm trying to do.

Many tutorials are not aimed specifically at video game staticmesh modeling.
You will find Extrusion and box modeling very useful, you just have to think about the number of segments and the faces to extrude before you start.
Max's docs cover how to do extrusion modeling.

Okay seeing as this Topics called modelling questions, would it be at all possible...to use particle emitters.....to make a character who is in fact, steaming, or in parts on fire?

Not entirely on topic, but yes, you should be able to attach an emitter to make the character be smoking or steaming etc.

[TheDragonzord]

Thankyou haha I will be making some soon you see