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    #16
    Originally posted by ShadeMistress View Post
    It's cool, but it should have a "smart" setting that detects weapons in lockers just so that super-weapons and Avrils (and maybe the Stinger or Flak) aren't automatically acquired, but you can at least get a Link and Shock and not get pwned in half a second by a Manta...
    a radius around lockers enter mingling with a radius around spawn points would be a great solution actually.

    I didn't say people should put deemers in lockers, but I would say if someone can someone more then likely will.

    I dont really mind the mantas personally, at least on my server. Though I have been smashed repeatedly.


    on the other hand I still don't see any reason why an admin shouldn't be able to turn this off if they choose.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Xyx View Post
      Because it makes spawnkilling slightly more difficult?
      I don't think he had a word back at this, lol.
      Weapon lockers on spawn is kind of a nice, and working idea. anyway, all you did was:

      Hoverboard -> Leave overboard -> Grab locker -> Hoverboard

      Now you just Hoverboard -> ??? Anything

      Balance? What balance this guy was talking about again?

      Comment


        #18
        Revisiting this thread.... be warned though, personal opinions to follow! And yeah... I know.... for those with attention span issues... "tldr". So be it.

        Originally posted by Xyx View Post
        What is wrong with the feature?
        Just to recap and start this post... you are of course referring to the new 'feature' of giving players the weapons in the nearest weapon locker (which is what this mutator removes).

        In order to better make my point (and not write an entire novel), I'll start with VCTF.

        When considered all by itself, in the context of what vanilla VCTF has become... well, not really all that much is 'wrong' with this new feature, other than the fact that it is yet another step in the wrong direction, in an attempt to 'fix' what was started wrong at the beginning. And the fact that it appears as sloppy, 'after-thought' type of game design. Basically, what bugs me is not so much the feature itself (although it does bug me), but even more so is what the feature represents.

        What I mean by sloppy, after-thought design... well, for example, there are now going to be weapon lockers that basically serve no purpose at all, because they aren't visited much, except when you spawn, and now you don't need them there, because you get the weapons when you spawn. See what I mean? Makes it seem as if we now know it was 'broke' to begin with, and we're slapping on a weird fix that highlights that fact. And also because now you're going to be spawning with different weapons at different times.

        If the "problem" was that folks needed better weaponry upon spawning, in order to fight off spawn-campers, there are/were better ways to go about this. Especially IF they could have been predicted back when this game type was being laid out originally - and that's the point, they most certainly could have been predicted.

        For example, you could have gone with an ExpertCTF type of approach, and simply given players a certain standard set of weapons on spawn, leaving others (like maybe superweapons and avrils or sniper guns or whatever) to be found in the map. This would have been a much 'neater', less sloppy, approach, in that you wouldn't have these weird feeling weapon spawns next to you when you spawn - that you no longer need. And it would feel more uniform or 'standardized' or whatever, as everyone would be starting with same weapons all the time, and they'd know what to expect. Thereby being less sorta confusing and sloppy, as currently you don't always know what to expect when you spawn.

        Of course that would be best if it was done back at the beginning so to speak, before all these maps with weapon lockers were created. But even now, this late into the games life, perhaps it still could have been done as a mutator or alternate game type. You could have given the 'standard' weapons at spawn, while at the same time coded to simply remove all weapon lockers from the maps (leaving the individual pickups in place... which would most often be things like avrils, super-weapons, and snipers...). Taking that approach would at least look better, feel more standardized.

        And this is all related to bigger problems, I think it all goes back to the problems with bot AI when VCTF was first (semi)supported in UT2004. What I mean is, the problem that UT series has with bots not playing VCTF correctly, unless you create what I call drive-by flag bases.

        I don't think it's by accident or by coincidence that CTF maps over the years have traditionally had "bases', in which the flags were housed. You had your red base, blue base, and the middle ground in between them. And of course a million different ways of presenting them, but basically the same idea. The bases worked as a good place to spawn in relative safety, as well as a decent place to defend your flag.

        But when VCTF was sorta made available in UT2004, there was a problem with bots, in that they didn't understand how to play if you put the flag in a base. They would only play properly if you allowed them to drive right up to the flag. And it is my opinion, that this shortcoming over time has led to this style of VCTF becoming 'standard. Because people wanted to have maps that the bots would play. So you got the whole trend moving in that direction.

        Nowadays you typically don't have flag bases anymore in VCTF. You don't have mappers taking players on foot into account. The whole game type has devolved into open air drive-by flag bases, and god help you if you're on foot. Which also leads to the oh-so-common situation where you get players spawning in places where the enemy can just run you down with a vehicle when you spawn.

        And it's gone on so long now, that people don't even consider such a fundamental issue. Everyone seems to have accepted the current situation, and the only 'fixes' being considered are ones that leave the underlying problem in place.

        If we had bases in VCTF maps, you could have some of your spawn points there, and allow folks to spawn in relative safety, at least from enemy vehicles. And that whole style of thinking, that whole design mind-set, could also lead to more thought being placed on the foot soldier, as the rest of the map is laid out. Buildings, or outposts, or something, placed throughout the maps, in which vehicles could not go, but foot soldiers could access and fight and spawn in, and so on.

        And this applies to WAR/ONS as well. Some of the very best playing ONS maps back in UT2004 had areas throughout the entire map that only players on foot could access. Which also means places you could spawn and not be run over right away. VCTF or WAR maps would/could be better if throughout the entire map, everywhere you go, there is much thought put into the guy on foot.

        Ah well... I could go on and on. But anyway... I can't speak for the guy who created this mutator, but I support this mutator, and probably more for what it represents to me, than what it actually does. For me, it's almost like drawing a line in the sand. We've headed down this incorrect approach to VCTF long enough, and I don't wanna go farther. Can we please go back, and try it a different way?

        To each his own. I simply yearn for a retail game that reconsiders what VCTF should be, and/or a wizard of a coder who shares my opinions on how to fix what we've got in front of us now.

        Can you tell I'm home for the day, and bored? Peace.

        Comment


          #19
          I am not enough of a "wizard of a coder" to "fix" the way bots play VCTF on Epic's maps. VCTF has devolved into "Vehicular DM with flags", or "Vehicular Camp-The-Flag".

          Regarding "the feature"...

          It is not as bad as you describe; sniper rifles, AVRiLs and redeemers are never found in weapon lockers (at least not on Epic's maps).

          Hiding the lockers and simply handing out a fixed set of weapons has problems of its own; what if you run out of ammo? Suicide? At least with the current system you can (re)visit the lockers. Moreover, the current system allows mappers to individualize their maps by varying the contents of the lockers, even handing out different weapons to people that spawn in different places.

          Regarding lack of foresight in map/game design...

          Yes, the cart did go in front of the horse on this one, but the cure is still better than the disease.

          The "feature" has also brought a small boon to future map design; weapon lockers no longer have to be placed in aesthetically awkward places. Epic's maps look like they have been designed as follows: 1) build bases, 2) place playerstarts, 3) place weapon lockers. As a result, weapon lockers are invariably in strange places because they have to be in front of the playerstarts. With this new feature, lockers could be placed in out-of-the-way spots and people would still get the weapons from them.

          Regarding VCTF...



          To me, CTF is at its best when both flags are taken. That won't happen as long as:
          1. Flags are easy to defend. Most stock maps have midfields that are so easily covered that you cannot really sneak past anything.
          2. (Ground) vehicles cannot carry the flag. This pigeonholes vehicles into defensive roles, aggravating problem #1. If the non-zippy vehicles could drag the flag home, they would be used in more ways than just defense.
          3. Abandoning vehicles to take the flag means getting your vehicle stolen. Stolen vehicles do not respawn, meaning your team is down one vehicle for a long time. Vehicle factories should treat stolen vehicles the same as destroyed vehicles and simply spawn a new vehicle either way.
          4. Flags are easy to return. Even if you drag the **** thing halfway across the map, if you drop it your enemies have but to touch it to return it. I can understand that letting people pick up their own flag and hiding it somewhere out back isn't ideal either, but perhaps the flag could teleport back onto its base only after it were carried by its team for 10 seconds or so. Kinda like the way the orb auto-returns if dropped.
          I wrote various attempts at fixing #1 and #2. I might give #3 and #4 a shot some day.

          Comment


            #20
            Who uses weapon lockers? It's called CTF, nubs.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Xyx View Post
              Hiding the lockers and simply handing out a fixed set of weapons has problems of its own; what if you run out of ammo? Suicide? At least with the current system you can (re)visit the lockers.
              I won't claim to be an expert on ExpertCTF (because I chose not to play it), but I believe the idea was that no matter where or when you spawned, your ammo was automatically regenerated while playing. So if it was applied here, there would be no need to revisit the weapon lockers.

              This was actually part of the reason I chose not to play that mod, as I actually enjoy the old-fashioned method of having to seek out and acquire your weapons and ammo (with exceptions, based on context, eg; the auto-regenerating system seemed best for HyperCTF). But it at least answers your questions about taking that approach.

              Of course it's debatable as to whether that's a good way to play, but at least IMO it would have been a 'cleaner' approach than what has been taken.

              Moreover, the current system allows mappers to individualize their maps by varying the contents of the lockers, even handing out different weapons to people that spawn in different places.
              I respect your opinion, but to me this is not a positive thing. I file this one under the "con" category. I simply dislike the concept of constantly spawning with a different set of weapons.

              Regarding lack of foresight in map/game design...

              Yes, the cart did go in front of the horse on this one, but the cure is still better than the disease.
              Perhaps. And that's sort of what I was trying to convey when I said my real support for this mutator wasn't so much what it 'fixes', as what it represents to me. I acknowledge the current design-quagmire Epic has put themselves in, I just wish the mind-set towards fixing it was going in a different way.

              Regarding VCTF...

              To me, CTF is at its best when both flags are taken. That won't happen as long as: ....
              I respectfully disagree. I think CTF/VCTF is just as fun before you actually take my flag. I enjoy the aspect of defense. To each his own. But for this reason, I disagree with the need for your #1.

              I think #2 is a combination of issues. I feel it's best resolved by better game type design overall, and more thought into VCTF maps than what we typically see. I could even go into specific examples from prior maps in the UT series, but I decided to leave that out for this post, in an effort to keep this reply to a somewhat reasonable length.

              #3 I would live with, IF it was happening in the environment that I envision. For example, if we had actual flag bases, and if you could actually carry flags in ground vehicles, as you should be able to do. For example, I think the UT2004 Hellbender was the ultimate VCTF vehicle we've seen yet (although to be fair, I haven't actually tried all those custom vehicles of yours ).

              In my mind, you could take that vehicle and two of your teammates to the enemy base, and you would have to protect that vehicle and maintain ownership of it, while a teammate (or teammates) got out and obtained the enemy flag. Sure, you might lose the vehicle, but that happens. Teamwork is key. Ideally the map would have foot soldiers in mind, and you would have at least a shot of staying alive on foot, while further vehicle support worked it's way back to you.

              I could not agree with you more about #4! Amen! IMO carry-your-flag type of rules is always better, but it makes even more sense in the relatively larger VCTF maps. You should have to work at returning that flag.

              But just FYI, it has been attempted in UT3 already, by slowJusko . He made a fine start of it, but it needs much work. Would be very cool to see you take it up. There seem to be random crashes, and besides that, the fact that he didn't address the issue of destroyed flags. In other words, if I'm playing on a map like Face, and my flag is all the way by your base, it sucks if I can just grab my flag and jump off into space to get a free flag return. In such cases, flags need to be returned to nearest pathnode, not simply returned to base.

              I can understand that letting people pick up their own flag and hiding it somewhere out back isn't ideal either, but perhaps the flag could teleport back onto its base only after it were carried by its team for 10 seconds or so. Kinda like the way the orb auto-returns if dropped.
              Well, sure. I truly dislike the "hide and seek" mentality in CTF. I want action action action. So in my mind, the best way to handle this is to have the 'radar' dots point to the flags themselves (as opposed to flag bases), so that there is no chance of hiding the flags. But sure, as a back-up measure, you can have a timer on a dropped flag (just in case it's actually lost, or stuck), which returns it to it's base. But this timer should be very long, as you want the emphasis to be on carrying your flag home, not simply waiting out the timer. And on dropped flags only, it's just weird and somehow wrong in my opinion to have a flag auto-magically taken out of a players hands returned to it's base.

              And of course all of this relates to more and more issues. One thing always leads to another, and another, it's all connected. And when combined, it all either gels, or it doesn't. I think the items/features/weapons could all be changed/tweaked or whatever, so that everything we've talked about worked mo' better.

              It's fun to talk about anyway. Can you tell I miss the days when Chaos was active?

              "All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up."

              Comment


                #22
                I still say the Cicada was one of the best vCTF vehicles in 2k4, before it was patched of course
                It was hilarious and aggrivating to see the flag carrier hop in the belly turret of the Cicada and take off without much trouble
                Then again it was also pretty easy to figure out where your flag was if you couldn't find it anywhere else, just start pegging the nearest Cicada :b

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