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**geronaho** · 02-13-2013, 01:35 AM

Looks good. Any vids on it?

**tarnationsauce2** · 02-13-2013, 06:34 PM

No vid of the map. If I have time I might make one when the map is final.

**Kaal979** · 02-13-2013, 09:33 PM

I kinda like the screenshots - only
to be honest in my UT3 the scenes
arent half contrasted like shown.
Maybe way to improve?

**NickG** · 02-14-2013, 03:52 AM

I am liking this map. It has a nice layout; good amount of variable pathways between bases.
Some thoughts:
Due to the depth of the elevators, pawns must move all the way to the wall to trigger them, which tends to break flow if making a run, so perhaps building them out might be worth an experiment. Probably good as is, though, players can weigh any elevator qualms versus the benefit of greater cover when choosing to use these areas for a run.

Music? While I share your tastes, music with legible lyrics seldom retains its charm after a few plays, generally. I am thankful that you did it correctly and I can just turn music channel to zero when not in the mood for it, and still hear the ambient sounds. (great job on the ambient sounds, especially on the large animated object.)

Some kismet logging screen output annoyances. The vehicle damage warning doubles up. You can disable this by deselecting bOutputToScreen and bIncludeObjComment, leaving bOutputObjCommentToScreen selected.
There are a couple of "no handler" messages if player pawn with flag touches trigger 5. I think this can be fixed by setting classproximitytypes to aicontroller or utbot for the touch events which activate the ai only actions (freeze, movetoactor), or by using a comparison to check if the instigator pawn object is a bot before linking ai actions. These two error messages will only show on instant action, or host, so nothing to fix if this is to be run on dedicated servers only.

The "FireFly" emitters near the goliath spawns and elsewhere show as black cubes (missing material) This looks surreal, but I am convinced you intend a different effect.

**tarnationsauce2** · 02-14-2013, 04:26 AM

Originally posted by Kaal979 View Post

I kinda like the screenshots - only
to be honest in my UT3 the scenes
arent half contrasted like shown.
Maybe way to improve?

The screenshots were done with all settings on max and postprocess set to Intense. They were not doctored other than to convert to jpg.
Make sure you have directional lightmaps on and bloom on as well.

Originally posted by NickG View Post

I am liking this map. It has a nice layout; good amount of variable pathways between bases.
Some thoughts:
Due to the depth of the elevators, pawns must move all the way to the wall to trigger them, which tends to break flow if making a run, so perhaps building them out might be worth an experiment. Probably good as is, though, players can weigh any elevator qualms versus the benefit of greater cover when choosing to use these areas for a run.

Music? While I share your tastes, music with legible lyrics seldom retains its charm after a few plays, generally. I am thankful that you did it correctly and I can just turn music channel to zero when not in the mood for it, and still hear the ambient sounds. (great job on the ambient sounds, especially on the large animated object.)

Some kismet logging screen output annoyances. The vehicle damage warning doubles up. You can disable this by deselecting bOutputToScreen and bIncludeObjComment, leaving bOutputObjCommentToScreen selected.
There are a couple of "no handler" messages if player pawn with flag touches trigger 5. I think this can be fixed by setting classproximitytypes to aicontroller or utbot for the touch events which activate the ai only actions (freeze, movetoactor), or by using a comparison to check if the instigator pawn object is a bot before linking ai actions. These two error messages will only show on instant action, or host, so nothing to fix if this is to be run on dedicated servers only.

The "FireFly" emitters near the goliath spawns and elsewhere show as black cubes (missing material) This looks surreal, but I am convinced you intend a different effect.

Great feedback NickG!

The elevators are small, I do think I will make them a bit bigger.
Bots don't use the elevators - that will be fixed. I really didn't put too much effort into bot pathing on this Beta1. I mainly want feedback first as pickups and routs might change a bit before I finalize bot paths.

Anti-flag camper vehicle damage will get tweaks. I need to make sure to output the comment only to the player causing the event.

Trigger5 is supposed to entice bots to the crystal skull except if they carry flag. It never worked and it needs more work. I'll take your advice for AIController on that trigger.

Yeah the firefly effect is supposed to be a yellowish flickering flare sprite. Hmm, maybe if I use a texture in MyLevel instead of stock FX package. Did you by chance save the cooked level? That will strip that texture out of the fireflys.

Music... Yeah I know what you mean. I'm torn. I love custom music. But it can distract from the ambience the map has. I'll wait to see what other people say.

Thank You!

**NickG** · 02-14-2013, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by tarnationsauce2 View Post

Did you by chance save the cooked level?

Oops! Yes, sorry I was verifying how to do some of the kismet stuff and saved. I refreshed from your upload and you are good on the emitters, they look good.

**Darkn3ss is QnL** · 02-14-2013, 02:27 PM

Nice screenshots! Will give the map a run later the day.

Coming from the screenshots, there seems to be a large amount of Uniform lightning. I can't seem to notice any form of shadowing, which looks a bit strange.
Such a large Sun actor coming from the side should emit shadows on all faces that it doesn't touch. Otherwise you should place the actor on top of your map.

**tarnationsauce2** · 02-28-2013, 04:49 PM

First post updated. D/L link to Beta 2, screenshots updated, and also notice the map has a new name.

Originally posted by Darkn3ss is QnL View Post

Nice screenshots! Will give the map a run later the day.

Coming from the screenshots, there seems to be a large amount of Uniform lightning. I can't seem to notice any form of shadowing, which looks a bit strange.
Such a large Sun actor coming from the side should emit shadows on all faces that it doesn't touch. Otherwise you should place the actor on top of your map.

Yeah lighting was mainly just roughed-in at the point the old screenshots were. Screenshots updated and map updated.
I like to keep lighting pretty simple for first Beta so build times are short and my 1st Beta I'm usually trying to find out how the map plays and flows.
Thanks for the input man!

**Flak** · 03-05-2013, 04:13 PM

This is so beautiful TarnationSauce! Nice job.

**tarnationsauce2** · 06-12-2013, 02:03 PM

Updated 1st post with d/l link for the new RC1 version.

**RattleSN4K3** · 06-12-2013, 11:27 PM

A really like your map. You should have added it to the MSUC back in the days

. But here are my concerns...

To be honest, i prefer Beta2.

Originally posted by tarnationsauce2 View Post

Update: RC1

RC1 Changes:
* Jump pads from base to by pyramid.

This is the worst thing you could have done IMHO. It's never that good if you can exfiltrate an enemy base that easily. If you want to have a faster gameplay, you should add a jumppad which takes you into the base.
Here are two videos which show the advantages/disadvantages of the jumppads.
http://www.xfire.com/videos/60079e
http://www.xfire.com/videos/600790

Originally posted by tarnationsauce2 View Post

* Only 1 sniper rifle @ center and sniper ammo at front of base. (reduce sniper camping).

Why removing? It's not the map (or specific items) why players camp. It's their gameplay style. You cannot enforce something else. Both Snipers on top were completely suitable.

Originally posted by tarnationsauce2 View Post

* Invis moved to suspension bridge and vest armor removed.

Invis fits better on that place. The previous placement was really bad - quite useless. But the Armor is essential for a flag runner (prevents falling off Hoverboard). Armor could replace EMP or can be placed at the HellBender spawn.

Originally posted by tarnationsauce2 View Post

* Redeemers where Invis used to be.

Remove 'em. Deemers are not needed. There is no heavy armored vehicle. And the Darkwalker is not that strong. You won't even be able use a deemer properly. In addition, newbie player will always camp for the new deemer. Which makes them 90s idling ... in the back of the base = out of the map.

Originally posted by tarnationsauce2 View Post

* UFO many tweaks to the firing mechanism (now "should" award players with kills).
* No more chat spam "Move Vehicle". Instead vehicle will emit sparks and will have momentum force with damage letting you know to move from flag area.
* Spider mine sparkles from UFO should now die after a little while (fix for online).
* Misc collision and bot fixes.
* Fixed bug when ejecting from Scorpion under bridges would get stuck inside bridge. (thx DeineLtan)
* Added announcements when UFO arrives with instructions how to use the crystal skull on the pyramid (with UFO directly overhead).

Fixes are always good *thumsb up*

Originally posted by tarnationsauce2 View Post

* No more jump pads on back of pyramid, instead there are lifts leading to rear caves.

2 things to mention:
- The lift is an easier way of getting up. The cave is a commonly used hideout for flag carriers. Having the jumppads added a more easier way to shoot incoming players which adds a factor of secureness to flag carriers.
- The jumppads added the ability to dodge the darkwalker beam.

Originally posted by tarnationsauce2 View Post

* OT will spawn Invulnerability instead of Goliath.

Now, lets face the problem of having Invulnerability aside Deemers. The main problem is the Deemer Flag run (watch the video below). Another part is the invincibility itself. In DM matches, you can always Hammer-EMP the players but not for open space maps in VCTF like CrystalSkull. You can only try to CrouchKill the hoverboarding player with the manta (which might pushes them through the ground). The invulnerability add a improper advantage for a flag carrier. Even though, its not capable in any (V)-CTF map.

Now this is an example video of a possible flag run with a Deemer and the invulnerability. I know it would need some skill but there is always someone (when it's not me

) who will do it.
http://www.xfire.com/videos/600793

**tarnationsauce2** · 06-13-2013, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post

A really like your map. You should have added it to the MSUC back in the days

. But here are my concerns...

To be honest, i prefer Beta2.

Thanks a bunch! It means a lot to me.

And thanks for taking the time to make all the responses and videos.

Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post

This is the worst thing you could have done IMHO. It's never that good if you can exfiltrate an enemy base that easily. If you want to have a faster gameplay, you should add a jumppad which takes you into the base.
Here are two videos which show the advantages/disadvantages of the jumppads.
http://www.xfire.com/videos/60079e
http://www.xfire.com/videos/600790

I know the jump pads are a huge change to the map. Here are my reasoning for the pads: Faster gameplay. The pads are fairly far from the flagbase and right in the middle of the base (where flag runners normally never go because you are exposed). This should give adequate time to kill flag carrier or follow him on the pad. The pad also have 0 air control so there is only a few ways to land that jump. Your video probably shows the longest possible jump.
I wanted to help reduce low scoring OT games. Jump pads from inside the base are also a good advantage to home-team players of foot too.

Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post

Why removing (sniper)? It's not the map (or specific items) why players camp. It's their gameplay style. You cannot enforce something else. Both Snipers on top were completely suitable.

I know and I almost didn't remove the sniper. But I really wanted campers on top of the arch to come down for ammo and have a bit longer of a trek to get the sniper rifle. This way people covering center area on foot have a better chance to kill the campers. It should help invite campers for more 1:1 fights to get the rifle or ammo.

Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post

Invis fits better on that place. The previous placement was really bad - quite useless. But the Armor is essential for a flag runner (prevents falling off Hoverboard). Armor could replace EMP or can be placed at the HellBender spawn.

I might remove Redeemer and plave vest in the little caves. I do think invis is great on the bridge especially for people entering enemy base. BTW the old spot was pretty good too for players that entered enemy base through rear tunnel through the bhellbender then grab invis before grabbing flag. But rarely used in that way.

Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post

Remove 'em. Deemers are not needed. There is no heavy armored vehicle. And the Darkwalker is not that strong. You won't even be able use a deemer properly. In addition, newbie player will always camp for the new deemer. Which makes them 90s idling ... in the back of the base = out of the map.

Yeah redeemer was a list minute thought. I really wanted the only superweapon to be the UFO itself. But I have to find something worth while to place in the cave.

Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post

Fixes are always good *thumsb up*

Hopefully all the UFO kismet ones work fine online lol. I thought I had it fixed on Beta2 but was still buggy.

Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post

2 things to mention:
- The lift is an easier way of getting up. The cave is a commonly used hideout for flag carriers. Having the jumppads added a more easier way to shoot incoming players which adds a factor of secureness to flag carriers.
- The jumppads added the ability to dodge the darkwalker beam.

Yes that was a huge thing to get rid of. But with that also the back area is less easy to bounce away from danger if you are in the water. Also, with the addition of the jump pad from the base into that water it would have been too easy to get away.

Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post

Now, lets face the problem of having Invulnerability aside Deemers. The main problem is the Deemer Flag run (watch the video below). Another part is the invincibility itself. In DM matches, you can always Hammer-EMP the players but not for open space maps in VCTF like CrystalSkull. You can only try to CrouchKill the hoverboarding player with the manta (which might pushes them through the ground). The invulnerability add a improper advantage for a flag carrier. Even though, its not capable in any (V)-CTF map.

Now this is an example video of a possible flag run with a Deemer and the invulnerability. I know it would need some skill but there is always someone (when it's not me

) who will do it.
http://www.xfire.com/videos/600793

I really like the idea if invulnerability. It is so rarely used and for obvious reasons. The way it is implimented in this map helps balance it a bit:
- Only spawns after OT, and UFO overhead
- Is not a pickup base, so it will die after a few seconds if no one takes it.
- It lowers from the UFO and everyone will run towards it causing a mad-dash and killing/death to earn it.

- If you manage to get it while holding the flag you deserve the final flag cap. (if your flag is returned)
- If you get it without a flag you can take the flag, or hunt the flag carrier.
- Since it is spawned by the UFO it spawns less frequently, and at a really obvious time announced to everyone.

Again thanks! I will put everything you said in great consideration. BTW Rattlesnake how do you feel helping code a better explosion from the UFO? Like deemer projectile but bigger? I sux at scripting.

**RattleSN4K3** · 06-13-2013, 05:01 AM

I only fear the map will get to "spammy". No sniper support and a a way of exfiltrating quickly makes it a lot faster then it should be and harder to defend (One-Touch=One-Score). Complaints about how "slow the gameplay is" could only come from spam-map-lovers

. The way you added Invulnerability is quite capable. The correct item for the place in the cave is quite hard to find. It should not be that important (as you always need to go there). I would place the EMP mine there. It can be used to distract SpawnKillers, FlagRuns with Hoverboard or Manta by placing it near the flag or the own spawn. And the original EMP mine can be replaced with Armor (or ShieldBelt so players will also fight for it). The hellbender area needs some vials (at the edges) and the map lacks of Ammo packs.

Regarding the JumpPad:
Its possible to trick the JumpPad which will push you against a rock which will move you into a different flight path which lets you quickly arrive the lift to get into the cave.
The JumpPad should be more at the old lift (near the Turret).

What do you plan with coding? The explosion is a particle effect which doesn't need any coding at all.

PS: You still got Beta1? Might check the items there.

**tarnationsauce2** · 06-13-2013, 05:40 AM

Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post

I only fear the map will get to "spammy". No sniper support and a a way of exfiltrating quickly makes it a lot faster then it should be and harder to defend (One-Touch=One-Score). Complaints about how "slow the gameplay is" could only come from spam-map-lovers

. The way you added Invulnerability is quite capable. The correct item for the place in the cave is quite hard to find. It should not be that important (as you always need to go there). I would place the EMP mine there. It can be used to distract SpawnKillers, FlagRuns with Hoverboard or Manta by placing it near the flag or the own spawn. And the original EMP mine can be replaced with Armor (or ShieldBelt so players will also fight for it). The hellbender area needs some vials (at the edges) and the map lacks of Ammo packs.

Regarding the JumpPad:
Its possible to trick the JumpPad which will push you against a rock which will move you into a different flight path which lets you quickly arrive the lift to get into the cave.
The JumpPad should be more at the old lift (near the Turret).

What do you plan with coding? The explosion is a particle effect which doesn't need any coding at all.

PS: You still got Beta1? Might check the items there.

Yeah if it becomes a spamp map I will hgave to tweak it for sure.
Yeah good call EMP mine in caves and Vest where EMP currently is. Nix deemers.

I originally had the jump pad drop you at the sides of the pyramid facing the bases, but you would take 15-20 hp damage so i moved it to the water. But then jumpboots + jumppad would land you against the wall on the other side. So yeah, I'll let some people play this for a bit on TheLast server and spectate to see how it plays in real-world setting.

For the coding I mean a cooler "projectile" - bigger damage radius (that gets weaker the further away), and cooler physics. I tried and couldn't figure it out. My idea was an explosion bigger than the redeemer explosion. Something that has inward/swirl pull like shock combo to swirl around people and vehicles. I could make the particle effect. I figure it could extend redeemer and have some code from shock combo but I don't know how to pull it off. It would have to be a projectile so it can be used in Kismet the way I am now.

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