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XS Prototype: Quantumbender

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    #31
    Do you think it'd be possible to make the vehicle itself immune to the effects of all time dilation fields (Slow Fields/Fast Fields that it or an opponent puts up)?

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      #32
      I've tried tons of things, but I cannot get the bender to ignore its own fields.

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        #33
        Originally posted by Xyx View Post
        I've tried tons of things, but I cannot get the bender to ignore its own fields.
        Hmm, too bad.

        My thoughts about the current incarnation of the recall feature: Wow, it went from overpowered to almost useless... 10 seconds are quite a huge timespan in UT3, no one can guess what might happen during that time. This 10-secs delay makes the vehicle ineffective against anything that moves.

        I think less drastic nerfs are needed.
        Imo, the way it worked in version 3 was the better approach (you could catch a Manta in a drive-by recall and anything capabale of dealing with these annoying buggers is good), but to balance it out, some measures need to be taken. I already suggested some a few posts back. Another approach to balance it (maybe not as an alternative, but as an addition to my previous ones): The explosion (or whatever it will turn out to be later) needs to be weaker, but it could power up in the time between marking a spot and recalling. So, if you want to cause immense destruction, strong enough to wipe out half a power node, you have to drive around quite some time after marking a spot. That way you can deal a lot of damage, but at the cost that you have to drive across the whole map before you can do it again. If you decide to stay close, you can strike more often, but less effective.

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          #34
          Originally posted by Doc Shock View Post
          This 10-secs delay makes the vehicle ineffective against anything that moves.
          I noticed. So...

          Back to the old "I'll recall precisely when I want to" system, to catch them nasty Mantas. Hold down Jump to charge the "warp drive", release to recall.

          To restrict the "repeatedly go into the enemy base and blow the **** out of them", the size of the blast is proportional to the delay; the longer you charge (up to a limit), the bigger the blast at the end.

          Alternatively (or additionally), you do not recall to the "space/time" where you initiated the process... but to something way before that, like 30 seconds ago. For instance, a counter appears that starts at -60 seconds and counts towards zero really fast, like, say, 10 seconds for every real second. When you let go of the Jump button, that is the amount of time you are "set back".

          Maybe there's a minimum of 10 seconds... or maybe the time is measured from wherever you began the process... so if the timer runs to zero you end up where you began... or maybe you just end up right where you are (zero seconds into the past) and die in your own explosion.

          It'd be nice if, at least, you could kill Mantas somehow.

          Thoughts?

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            #35
            Perhaps the passenger seat could be a hitscan which slows enemies for 3 or 4 seconds, allowing you to slow mantas from far away so they can be pounded by Goliaths.

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              #36
              I really like that idea of having a general "Slow" Gun, the ability to completely slow down vehicles or players from a distance for a short time.

              The alternate idea to the recall sounds like it'd be an interesting experiment, but i'm rather happy with the Charge up for a larger explosion idea.

              In the first place, the hellbender gives us one button, so i see no reason why Space can't be Recall and Set Recall. It's either one or the other anyways. Plus the ability to Un-edit your recall could be a balancing feature?

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                #37
                Originally posted by Xyx View Post
                Alternatively (or additionally), you do not recall to the "space/time" where you initiated the process... but to something way before that, like 30 seconds ago. For instance, a counter appears that starts at -60 seconds and counts towards zero really fast, like, say, 10 seconds for every real second. When you let go of the Jump button, that is the amount of time you are "set back".
                Interesting approach, but I bet it will be quite heavy for the server, which has to keep track of every postion of the vehicle during the last 30 seconds or so. I'd suggest a different approach: Marking and recalling should both stay in control of the driver, it can be done with a single button: Short press: Mark a spot. Hold down: Charge recall. Anything that takes control away from the player also takes away room for carefully planned tactics, imo. The last version was the best proof for that. To balance this power, I think the marked spot should be visible for everyone, displayed as some kind of bright energy vortex, for example. That way enemies will know where you will be a few seconds later, which should prove particularly useful when they have an emp mine or spider mine trap at hand... And if they don't, they simply charge their Imapct Hammer altfire and wait for your recall. And if the Colossus will indeed be able to mark spots for orbital drops, and one of them would be some kind of mine (maybe a LED sprite mine?), it would become the Chronobender's mortal enemy...

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Doc Shock View Post
                  it will be quite heavy for the server, which has to keep track of every postion of the vehicle during the last 30 seconds or so.
                  Not at all. Lessee... Position only has to be recorded once per second, not every frame. Location (X,Y,Z), rotation (pitch,yaw,roll) and health have to be recorded. That's three floats and four ints, up to 60 times. At 4 bytes each, that's (3+4)*60*4 = about 1.5kb. I bet that's peanuts compared to spawning a rocket with a smoke trail.

                  Now here's a crazy thought... what if we were to record the positions of all the other people and vehicles, and let the bender "shoot" stuff where it used to be? Kinda like Donnie Darko, but looking into the past instead of the future. I bet that'd get real complicated.

                  It sure would be interesting to have some sort of "retroactive" power. After all, changing the present by changing the past is the holy grail of time travel. Very difficult to implement in an online game. Anyone have any ideas?

                  Originally posted by Doc Shock View Post
                  Marking and recalling should both stay in control of the driver
                  Yup.

                  Originally posted by Doc Shock View Post
                  it can be done with a single button: Short press: Mark a spot. Hold down: Charge recall.
                  Having to hold down the button means you no longer have instant reaction and will no longer be able to catch Mantas and stuff.

                  The "mark/recall" functionality of version 3 could be (ab)used as a sort of quicksave/quickload. I suppose its cheapness arose from the rather large explosion, not as much the recall itself (restoring health and all).

                  Originally posted by Doc Shock View Post
                  the marked spot should be visible for everyone
                  Interesting you should say that. It would provide your enemies with knowledge of "what is to be". If you were to really sorta travel back in time, you'd be the only one to know about it. No way anybody else would be able to predict where you'd reappear.

                  The problem here, of course, is that you don't actually travel back in time. You just warp back to the spot you were in, with the health you had.

                  Long story short... what I'm really after is something that...
                  • emulates time travel, that allows you to "quicksave/quickload" of sorts.
                  • keeps Mantas on their toes.
                  • is fun for all involved.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Xyx View Post
                    Now here's a crazy thought... what if we were to record the positions of all the other people and vehicles, and let the bender "shoot" stuff where it used to be? Kinda like Donnie Darko, but looking into the past instead of the future. I bet that'd get real complicated.
                    It sure would be interesting to have some sort of "retroactive" power. After all, changing the present by changing the past is the holy grail of time travel. Very difficult to implement in an online game. Anyone have any ideas?
                    Not only complicated but next to impossible... At least if you want everyone to have fun. Because, you know, getting killed without knowing what hit you (because it happened in the past) is bound to breed frustration for human players. Of course it could be done, I think. Maybe it'd need native code that extends the demorec-classes and such, but in therory it would be possible, imo. Everything that happens right now won't be displayed to the client (all enemies and stuff become invisible and have no collision) and the qb will behave the same for all others. Then he'll see a recording of what heppened before and can influence it, thus breaking the continuum, causing a rollback for all actions of the affected unit. Incredibly complicated, hardly possible without a lot of native coding and tremendously data-heavy. Would you really want to bother with such a feature if, in the end, it's likely to turn out to be simply annoying if you're not the one utilizing it?
                    An easier time travel effect on the other hand would reset everything except the qb to their previous positions, health and inventory, and going on from there, so every player takes control of his former self. But that would be as overkill as annoying for enemies and teammates alike, because all their previous deeds will be undone. No player should have that much control over a game.

                    Originally posted by Xyx View Post
                    Having to hold down the button means you no longer have instant reaction and will no longer be able to catch Mantas and stuff.
                    The effect would activate instantly when you release the button, and nothing prevents you from driving around while charged. The only drawback would be that you can no longer mark a new spot, once charged up, there's no choice left, you will either recall or die beforehand.

                    Originally posted by Xyx View Post
                    The "mark/recall" functionality of version 3 could be (ab)used as a sort of quicksave/quickload. I suppose its cheapness arose from the rather large explosion, not as much the recall itself (restoring health and all).
                    My thoughts exactly. Once the explosion is replaced with a singularity or whatever, it will feel way less powerful then version 3 used to.

                    Originally posted by Xyx View Post
                    Interesting you should say that. It would provide your enemies with knowledge of "what is to be". If you were to really sorta travel back in time, you'd be the only one to know about it. No way anybody else would be able to predict where you'd reappear.

                    The problem here, of course, is that you don't actually travel back in time. You just warp back to the spot you were in, with the health you had.
                    Indeed, but I don't see a problem with that. It travels through space and time, but only affects itself. From the driver's point of view, he doesn't travel back in time when he recalls. He actually travels to the future at the moment he marks a spot, without moving. Everything that happens to him in between will never have happened to him but to his "other self" that will never have had existed after the recall was initiated. Infinite universes theory, paradoxon, stuff like that. A perfect explanation, you just have to look at the situation from a different perspective.
                    And from this point of view, it would not be "knowing the future" for the enemies as well. They would simply see a time portal that will either collapse (if the driver marks another spot) or spit out a vehicle from the past. A good opportunity for a carefully placed emp mine...

                    Originally posted by Xyx View Post
                    Long story short... what I'm really after is something that...
                    • emulates time travel, that allows you to "quicksave/quickload" of sorts.
                    • keeps Mantas on their toes.
                    • is fun for all involved.
                    1. If you look at it from the point of view described above, it's indeed an emulation of time travel: The marked spot is actually a time-portal that enables the vehicle to communicate with its future self. And if the future self sends the recall command, the vehicle from the past travels to the future, which causes a paradoxon for the future self, because it will never have existed, thus causing a massive disturbance of the s/t-continuum, causing the space around the vehicle that should not exist to collapse in on itself in slow motion.
                    2. Hmm, why shouldn't we take the opposite approach then: Setting up the portal to the future should take some time during which the vehicle will be a sitting duck, but the recall happens instantly. That way you can catch every Manta that passes by.
                    2. That pretty much rules out your idea of killing people in the past, but apart from that it all sounds pretty fun to me already.

                    Yet another idea: The marked spot could be of even more use than just an indicator for your enemy where they can expect easy prey. Maybe it could work as a portal that will teleport any teammate who enters it to the qb's current location (of course not exactly, maybe right behind it), while every enemy who is so stupid to walk through it will end up under its wheels?

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                      #40
                      Also, i havent tried the new version of the bender but i see the problem of players setting a recall, hiding it, then using it later to restore their own health, or get another shield belt.

                      Otherwise, perhaps enemies can shoot it as well, meaning when you try to recall you die as well. But the mark should be difficult to see, or damage if you get too close to it, and explodes like a mini-deemer when it disapeers.

                      Another way to look at is how it dies / denatures. Like an enzyme, it loses the correct active shape / site for the old quantumbender to fit into, thus damaging / destroying the old one.

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Doc Shock View Post
                        Would you really want to bother with such a feature if, in the end, it's likely to turn out to be simply annoying if you're not the one utilizing it?
                        Not really... just thinking out loud. I guess the time travel should be restricted to the bender itself. Still, it'd be awesome to have some of that "reality revision" power.

                        Originally posted by Doc Shock View Post
                        No player should have that much control over a game.
                        That's probably true. Depends on how easy it is for said player. If he has to go through hell to get it, then it's OK.

                        Originally posted by Doc Shock View Post
                        And from this point of view, it would not be "knowing the future" for the enemies as well. They would simply see a time portal that will either collapse (if the driver marks another spot) or spit out a vehicle from the past.
                        My problem with this is one of "feel". For me, it moves a bit from a "timetravel feel" to a "teleport with health restored feel". It's almost functionally identical, yet somehow not the same.

                        Originally posted by Doc Shock View Post
                        Setting up the portal to the future should take some time during which the vehicle will be a sitting duck, but the recall happens instantly.
                        That probably solves it. I'll see if I can give that a shot. Simple but effective. Thanks for thinking along.

                        Originally posted by Doc Shock View Post
                        Maybe it could work as a portal that will teleport any teammate who enters it to the qb's current location
                        Still trying to work in some sort of forward outpost, eh? People keep mentioning Red Alert's chronosphere thingamajig. Guess I should have played more Red Alert.

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