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WAR-Dawn Revisited [Beta 02] [Pics] [1/25/08] [PC]

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    Not sure if it was mentioned or not, but it'd be easier to DL if you just do an orb version. The game ships with a WAR-only mutator that removes the orb fabricators, so making a non-orb version becomes wholly redundant.


      In the next beta or 2, I'll be adding the config for the orbs to be selected on or off. That way, people can enjoy the map with or without them.

      Orb stations will more than likely only be at base. Thus requiring a team effort to get an orb carrier across the map. Good luck making it across the entire map alone with the "Hey I'm over here. Kill me now." sign on your head.


        Well could you post a picture of what the full sky looks like when you're in the raptor? Despite the fact that it's more realistic now, the 2K4 sky still looks better, which shouldn't be happening.


          Sure. Like I've said all along. Fog in UT3 acts like REAL fog. Here, you can see how it has cleared up a decent amount with the increased elevation in the Raptor. Same goes when you are jumping around in the Manta, or as you change elevation when going up or down the hills. The higher you make it up, the clearer the fog becomes. The sky was nice and clear in 2k4 because the fog was not really acting like real fog.





              Please try and get us a new beta today ... this level is looking so good and your decision looks like it is going to payoff bigtime. I'll be keeping my eyes open and looking for that later this evening.


                Just tried some Instant Action. It's great to see Dawn again, but something's not quite right. I love what you're doing, but I doubt that anyone else is going to bother with a Dawn remake after you release this, so it'd be great if this one was... well, perfect in every way. What follows may seem a bit harsh, so let me once again emphasize that I think you're doing a fantastic job and I'm just trying to provide constructive feedback.

                You say you want a faithful remake. The old Dawn had fog, so the new Dawn has fog even though it makes the sky look like ****. The old Dawn had vehicle pads you couldn't always walk onto, so the new Dawn has pads that are at least as tricky to walk onto. The old Goliath took 13.89751 seconds to get from base to tank node, so the map is scaled way beyond its original proportions to ensure the faster new Goliath also takes precisely 13.89751 seconds.

                I think all of that is going way too far, but hey, it's your map and I can understand all of it in the light of a faithful remake.

                But then there are things like the Berserk pickup (I know, no Painter, but Berserk != super weapon), the deadly pool of goo surrounding the Redeemer, the missing Keg, completely new buildings around the shield belt with a weird jump required to get the belt...

                And last but not least there's the size. Might be my personal preference for smaller, busier environments, but this feels way too big. Most of the time I feel I'm shooting at tiny blue blobs of pixels instead of people. Forget walking anywhere; it's just too far. Rather teleport around to find a Manta/Raptor. Even wait for a vehicle to respawn, still beats walking. The hoverboard is supposed to aid the delivery of zero-time-to-spectacle, but in this upscaled environment the long boring walks are simply replaced with long boring hoverboard rides. The Hellbenders are almost useless; takes too long to get anywhere. The old Dawn sure wasn't like that.

                Then there's a few oddities that I'm not sure are related to the original Dawn:
                • Not being able to jump to the Raptor in the base.
                • Being able to shoot down the tank node from the base entrance. It's almost impossible to keep that node alive for more than half a minute.
                • Rocks and mushrooms down the center hard to jump over with the Manta in some places.
                • Structures surrounding the nodes seemed to protect the nodes just a little better in the old Dawn.
                • Many playerstarts face strange directions. I often spawn without either the node, a weapon locker or a vehicle in sight... until I turn around. Sometimes I even spawn just facing a rock wall.
                • Either go for a faithful to-the-letter remake or try to capture the spirit of the old Dawn in full UT3 style like Torlan did. You seem to be wanting both but not getting much of either right now.
                • Stick to the old dimensions. That means some travel will be slightly faster (walking, Goliaths), but at least it won't be battle of the Red and Blue pixels anymore. It'll also give the Hellbenders a purpose and help de-uberize the Mantas.
                • Get the ECE stuff in. That, too, was "old Dawn". You could make a separate link setup for ECE and non-ECE (and hopefully Axon versus Necris too).
                • Get some decent looking rocks on those hilltops. The new Torlan doesn't use terrain for mountains anymore either, and it looks much more real because of it.
                • Those blue crystals really stand out. Very annoying for the Red team. I often mistake them for enemies, and I bet the Blue team could easily exploit them for camouflage. Either give them a color not so close to the Blue brightskin (like, more greenish) or place red crystals along the other side of the map to even things out.
                • Lower the vehicle pads. Not being able to walk onto them in the old Dawn was an annoyance already. I don't see how matches would be less nostalgic or enjoyable in any way whatsoever if people could just walk onto the pads.
                • Lower the fog so it only shows up in the lower valleys. Use some depth of field/distance blur to smooth the more distant parts of the map.


                  Hi Xyx. Thanks for the detailed feedback

                  The MAIN reason why I am trying to make it exactly as 2k4 is because my clan's community needs good match maps. These guys are extremely **** when it comes to map dynamics. The best match maps were balanced as close as possible for both sides. Dawn may not be exactly the same on both sides of the map, but both sides have their advantages and disadvantages which balances out in the end. Dawn was a popular map and I need it to be as close to the original as possible in every sense.

                  Map Size:
                  We have had a lot of talk about this, and are still unsure what to do with the map. All the vehicles behave differently from 2k4. We are currently torn between the map feeling too big for the slower vehicles and keeping it the same size from 2k4.

                  The feeling "big" factor.
                  We have already tested this map with about 6 or 8 people who knew what they were doing. The more people that play, the less "big" the map feels. While making your way across the map with the hoverboard, you might end up preventing someone going over to one of your nodes. Or you could try sniping people from far. The Bender was rarely used as a "I need to get to the other side of the map" vehicle. It was mostly used as a defensive weapon. Keeping guys on foot away from a node, sniping incoming enemy Mantas and Raptors, etc.

                  Oh and guess what. This map is actually BIG enough to take advantage of the Bender's new rear turret...assuming one knows how to take advantage of it. Avril camping has its advantages, but the avril still requires x amount of time to reach its target. The Bender's rear turret is instantaneous. The Bender's role in this map is more of long distance sniping and defense than anything else. Not saying you shouldn't use it for traveling far distances, but people should learn how to use the environment and vehicles to specific advantages. I'm not going to edit the map just because people think the Bender takes too long to get from point A to point B. If this were the case, then every Warfare map should be the size of a DM map.

                  Long boring walks will be a thing of the past with 12+ people in this map. And does not turn into a "Everyone must be in this location" map. There will always be something happening SOMEWHERE. You have 2 primes to worry about. You may have a team building a centre node which will allow you to takeover the other centre node in order to get your other prime back if it is currently held by the enemy, etc. You have the sniper rifle at the tank node. What are your 4 options? Stay and defend the tank node, take the tank, take the Raptor, or take the sniper rifle, get to the hill above the tank node, and see if there is anyone you can kill at the centre node with it. Trust me. This map will not be boring with the required amount of people in it.

                  Your bulleted issues:
                  Platforms: This has been addressed and will be implemented. Being that some have shown a slight deficiency in pushing the jump button, I have come up with a solution. I did not want to lose the look of the platforms by sinking them into the ground. So I created a hexagonal blocking volume with a flat top and placed it underneath one of the platforms as a test. The end result is, IMHO, rather respectable.

                  Tank node: Same as 2k4. If you can't keep the tank node alive, then have the team work their way around the centre area and bring down the other prime while a small team keeps prevention on the tank node. This comes down to tactics.

                  Rocks & Mushrooms: Does everything need to be able to have the Manta jump on top? Little by little, I'll try to balance the rocks.

                  Node Structures: I actually haven't heard much feedback on this. Will try to get more info. The new nodes are slightly higher than the old ones. But I can always rotate these structures so the nodes are not so easy to hit from certain common incoming angles.

                  Playerstarts: After you made this comment, I looked at the player starts. I never realized they had a little directional arrow to them. I will make sure they will all eventually face outwards away from a wall. Thx.

                  Your recommendations:
                  Remake: Yeah. This has been difficult But I referenced this with the above statements on the new vehicle dynamics. I guess we will see how it goes

                  Dimensions: Same as above. I'm not catering a map so people can use the Bender as a bus. All vehicles have roles to play. People can learn to use the Bender in the most "efficient" manner, or they could use it to go across the map. It is their decision. But overall dimension concerns is something we are certainly looking into for other reasons other than the convenience of driving the Bender around.

                  ECE Stuff: My primary concern is getting basic Dawn finished. I will play with other configurations later on if time permits. Anyone else is more than welcome to create different variants of Dawn with more and crazy vehicles. My main concern is to first get the basic playable and match worthy copy of Dawn working.

                  Rocks: Ditto. I'll be adding much more detail as time goes by.

                  Crystals: Eh. Will probably take them out, but I like blue.

                  Platforms: As I mentioned above, I will be fixing this issue and it won't be by sinking them into the ground and destroying their look.

                  Fog: Fog plays an important strategic role in this map wise as it did in 2k4. I can't lower it. Doing so would disrupt much of the original game play. Again, people are welcome to create their own version of the map with crazy vehicles, more powerups, no fog, etc. My goal here is to make a "match" worthy map in which 2k4 Dawn was perfect in doing.

                  Anyways, thanks for the feedback, and keep them coming as I'm sure more will come up as we release the other Betas.


                    Actually I like the blue crystals and they are part of ONS-Dawn so my vote would be to keep them in. I also really like blue and without a clearly visible blue sky at the bottom level if you take them out ... where there goes some cool blue.


                      By the way... forgot to mention it but I think there's a stray blocking volume over some tree near one of the primes. I kept banging into it with a Raptor.


                        Any chance we'll get a new beta today/tonight? I hope so ... getting really ansy but of course I want you to get it right but you know what I mean.


                          4 things I want to make sure are fixed by Beta2:

                          1) Map size (already reduced a bit)
                          2) Volumes around platforms
                          3) Player start positions.
                          4) Smoothing of terrain


                            Good looking map and I have it on a server. plays very nice.
                            Thank you for the hard work.

                   UT3 Warfare Community
                            Warfare Maps, Warfare Pugs.
                            Unreal at its Best.


                              Originally posted by IzaFly View Post
                              4 things I want to make sure are fixed by Beta2:

                              1) Map size (already reduced a bit)
                              2) Volumes around platforms
                              3) Player start positions.
                              4) Smoothing of terrain
                              So where are you with this tonight? Any chance of a second beta or are these issues becoming bigger problems than you had anticipated?


                                Map size has been reduced.

                                Now I'm in the process of having to reposition EVERYTHING on the map.

                                I've also been experimenting with better terrain textures. I haven't been too happy with what I currently have since day one. The cliff material doesn't really tile right and is too tiled in certain areas. I haen't been too found of the sand material currently on the ground. But I have something a bit more interesting that I will be using.