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DM-Redkin (Hourence's Master Peice)

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    hmmm i re-read the whole thread..i see nothing but peeps stating their opinions.. no unnecessary bashing...just their experiences with the maps and the things they like/dislike



      Originally posted by Frogger
      hmmm i re-read the whole thread..i see nothing but peeps stating their opinions.. no unnecessary bashing...just their experiences with the maps and the things they like/dislike

      I guess I may have over reacted then huh? lol, sorry if I offended anyone. I meant no harm. I just went to the Hour.'s team page and seen his long speach about people bickering, and it upset me to see that people made him feel this way.

      Again I meant no harm to the innocent, just an over reaction wehen I seen that Hour felt this way, and I felt that people should no that "some" people can get rather *****y. Notice I said "SOME"

      Everyone knows that there are people out there that are like this and you need not back them up, for it will give you a bad name... so, to those that are like that, think about what you are going to say and how it might effect the author...


        Well, I read the rant of Hourences :bulb:

        Sorry if any of my posts upset him, but honestly, there's nothing I wrote that should be taken as anything more than constructive criticism.

        I've seen much harsher criticism back in my Nali City forum days.


          Visually, map is great, and that’s where Rankin has been topped, but in the gameplay department Redkin falls a bit short.


            everyone is entitled to say their mind on all the maps here. this isn't explicity a "lets bash everyone" or "lets pat everyone on the back" board.

            no reasonable comment is invalid.


              Sorry for rant.

              (I do not think one person has been rude individually besides two or three clear people, but the collective topic of two of the maps flaws being posted constantly is what lead up to Hourence’s rant)

              Hourence's is a professional level designer. I am not saying that I think he is a professional level designer, I know he is because we all know he has worked in the industry a good few times. Indeed this is not a one way ticket to not taking criticism. The fact that he has been paid says at least that he knows what he is doing to a medium to high degree.

              I think what he said in the rant has some small collective feelings of few level designers in this community. Thing is when ever a map by top level designers come out and criticized they are always criticized a lot harsher than obviously substandard maps. This to me makes no sense. The people, who point only the bad in critiques, have no sense of how to construct a good critique. In a good balanced critique you point out what you like and the flaws equally. Tell me one person who makes perfect maps and show me these works of gods, I have not seen one map that is perfect. You got’ a understand that if one person says the window has no weapon blocking volume why mention it a hundred times more, and even have that same person mention it in many threads about his map. Who in the world would not get ****** at this childish behavior? Once or twice… maybe three times is enough but seeing it on many posts and especially from people who have posted on different threads for just the window flaw is a little wacky.

              This community gives more importance to substandard maps like remakes than “high quality pushing the bar up levels” like this. Sure it is not perfect. And you know what many paintings that are now renowned for the beauty & technical accuracy are not perfect. At the end it is your opinion if you like the map. That is fine if for some reason you do not like a map it is all cool with even the level designer I bet, respect does not mean you like his work just write critiques respectfully. I think that rant was because of the over abundance of stupidity with issues as minute as the window.

              The only issue is the window… FPS can be solved. I say that is 99% perfection already provided the map gives you the right groove and feel. Flaw wise... The rest are just personal opinions.


                i think people are just looking for different things... i really enjoy many of these 'substandard' remakes you talk of...but i like tons of other maps too...I don't like many of the CBP maps either, but that doesn't mean they aren't professionally done or great works...they simply are not to my taste..

                I don't really think people are any harder on Hourence or any of the other 'top' level designers..i think it's just that they expect everyone to LOVE what they have done..and don't take the criticism well. I have read several sites on this map and have only seen one person say anything halfway mean about it.. But I've seen other maps by 'lesser' authors get totally trashed...usually these authors take what has been said and try to learn and grow from it... It was pretty sad to see Hourence's reaction to what appears to me to be normal map critque..moreso I think it was frustration at making a simple mistake on such an involved and spectacular map.



                  My opinion:
                  • Hourences is a great mapper, but is taking the criticism like a child. He's saying he might not map anymore, because some people gave advice that he didn't like, and some people gave incorrect advice. How immature.
                  • No mapper is exempt from [constructive] criticism - especially a professional mapper who makes mistakes that a professional shouldn't be making. His rant cries about how he utilized the world detail levels, but the thing is, that's not enough. He should know well enough by now that his low detail level should not underperform the high detail levels of retail maps.
                  • The map is a wonderful piece of art, and that's about it. Perhaps if Hourences doesn't carry out with his threat to quit UT2 mapping, we'll see a little more balance between art and gameplay, in the future.
                  Take it or leave it.


                    Originally posted by Desp#2
                    The people, who point only the bad in critiques, have no sense of how to construct a good critique.
                    I'm just compensating for the inevitable pages of "OMFG L33EEET MAP!!!!!11" posts that follow any halfway decent mapper's thread. The opposite of your statement is true as well, some people only point out the good and either ignore the bad or are too afraid to post it for fear of getting flamed. That doesn't help anyone.


                      desp, I think you're right.
                      People do judge professional mappers' maps more harshly. But isn't that understandable? If someone releases a cube map, no one's going to complain about little details, because it's obvious that this fledgling mapper needs much more basic help, most of which is learned through trial and error. So when you see one of these terrible "maps", you say "try to pay more attention to flow next time" or "smeshes are your friend" or "ambient lighting should be used with caution". These mappers don't need extremely nit picky critisism. They're a lot better off with a little bit of encouragement, so that the next map they make IS worthy of a critical eye. Not to mention the fact they usually don't know what zones are.

                      A map made by one of the most reputed mappers is something else though. Redkin is a very nice map, that goes without saying. But because Hourences is such a great mapper, people will go further in their search for flaws. The fact that the main flaw found (besides FPS probs people are having) is a window with faulty collision, shows how good the map is. This isn't bashing, most of the time it's just people trying to help.

                      But saying that there shouldn't be any FPS problems is just wrong. You don't need to tell me to set world detail to low: my world detail is rusted tight at the "low" position. My computer suffers when running this map. period.
                      Now there are maps that look AND play way worse than Redkin. Real computer killers. And I'm sure Hourences did a great job in optimizing. But lower FPS are just the price you pay when making a map that looks as good as this one.


                        I looked at the map and found it to be quite neat. Really feels alive.

                        For the issues stated above which seem to have gone in the wrong direction I say this...mappers are humans and as humans they are prone to making mistakes...

                        This map is really great and inspirational as I mentioned and seeing the fact of few glitches doesnt seem right to start an entire debate about mapping perfection, personal tatses, and what not people have touched on here.

                        Everyone is entitled to their own opinion..but the manner in which people express them really tend to skew things


                          I'll agree on the inspiration part. Seeing as I'm working on an industrial map as well, it was great to see the theme so expertly executed. And as I've said before, I think it's a very nice map. But my points still stand.


                            Ok, I'm going to continue this little hijack thats going on.

                            For starters, I personally haven't tried this map yet. I'm currently doing an internship on the West Coast, and I'm very far away from my underpowered gaming rig.

                            However, based on what i've seen...

                            I can see why he might be upset about the Window. That's a really reallly minor thing. That should just be a matter of changing a property in UED. In a map like this, I can understand how it was overlooked.

                            Does it change gameplay? It shouldn't. AM's "ooopsie" sums it up best. It's not something people should be harping on.

                            As for FPS... I don't know what else to say... Everyone's rig is different. And if Hour is right about making sure he made good use of World Settings, then there's nothing else people can do aside from changing the world detail to low and just tweaking their settings (which makes an excellent reason for engine settings on a per-map basis )

                            Other than that, this is just the same Flow vs. Eye-candy issue that arises each time we get a high profile map release. It happens with CBP, it happened with AS-Confexia, etc.

                            To be frank, everyone has different map preferences. My game server reflects my preferences. I enjoy remakes for nostalgia's sake, but I also enjoy "bar pushing" maps such as this and things like it. DM-Reconstruct easily comes to mind.

                            I can see where Hour is coming from with his frustration, as he's obviously taken the time to do some cool stuff, and people are harping on a simple and minor oversight. I think the same sentiments are expressed by most mappers when they try to do something ingenious... They don't get praise for the innovations and everyone is quick to point out things that got overlooked in the process of innovation.

                            To top it off, Hour was going to provide tutorials on his site as to how he did everything over the last 7 months. He's more than willing to give back to this community in hopes similar feats could be achieved, and to a degree it sounds like he thinks we've spit in his face or something. Which is a sad thing to see, since this is the sort of stuff that can set UT DM apart from CS or HL2DM. I just hope he doesn't bail out on the tutiorials since sharing information and being helpful is one of the nice things about this community. This is one of the few things that sets the best mappers apart from the pack in my mind.

                            That's just my $0.2, and it'll be another month before I get to my computer, so I can't say much else about the map.


                              Maybe my comment wasnt so good. But this is the guy who made Rankin. My favourite map.
                              Redkin IS a good map. BUT the ambient sound DO ruin it if you play competetive like me. A good mapper should know this, so now I tell you it.


                                you have to be very clever to run with the deer and hunt with the hounds