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    Hmm, maybe the original poster should have contacted Mr Butt
    before he started this whole debate, because I've heard that
    they have since resolved their differences, to a degree, and the
    fact has not been mentioned here.

    I think its wrong to use someone elses work without their
    permission. I also think its wrong to smear someones name
    and reputation without discussing the matter with them first.
    Its also wrong to try and blame Epic for this whole thing.

    Maybe we can all learn something from this though, exactly what?
    I'm not sure. But I definitly know the difference between the
    Moon and the Sun.

    Dr. Sin, would it be a good idea for you and Epic to maybe
    consider the implementation of some type of unmodifyable
    content encrypted security code string into the Unreal Editor?
    Maybe have it generate a random string of 16 characters as a
    content lock code whenever someone completes their work. Then
    only the person that knows the code would be able to edit or
    modify the content of the work with the UE.

    Something like that might help to avoid situations like this in the future.

    Comment


      The legal issues aside, this really is a pointless debate. I can't tell you how many maps I have seen, either custom or stock, have the same items in them. A light fixture, a section of pipe, a hand rail, a steam emitter, a steel railing, a plank of wood, or a lantern. People constantly pick and choose items from one map to use in another map. How many maps have the same crystal formation? How many maps have the same monitors that say 'If your reading this, your already dead'?

      The fact of the matter is, that all the maps out there have very little truely custom stuff. Textures are reused over and over, meshes are reused, models are reused. How many maps have the FaceClassic skybox?

      Ok, so someone took someone else's map and changed a few things and called it his own. Legally, he can do that. You have no legal recourse to stop him or prevent him from doing that to your map. Piracy ins't exactly a new issue nor is it limited to map making. Taking vredit for someone else work isn't cool, but legally you can do nothing.

      {GOG}R4d4:

      I am not missing anything. All maps are created using the UED. Map format, the game engine, scripting, ect. ect. are all owned by Epic. You make a texture and use it in a map, that map and the texture in the map belongs to Epic. Look the laws up yourself and go read a few other EULAs. They are all the same and say the same thing.

      Epic could sell our maps if they so desired, with or without our permission. You can't sell them cause they were made with protected software and protected technologies.

      As I said before, if you want to sell a texture you made then go for it. Epic can't say otherwise. Put in a map and try to sell the map and Epic will have issues.

      No matter how many times you look at the sun and call it a sun.. It is a star and everyone else knows that.

      Comment


        Originally posted by MajikMyst
        look at the sun and call it a sun.. It is a star and everyone else knows that.
        Again you are wrong...


        After reading your posts about legal stuff I am glad I am not working together with you. I fear my ping won't be too good from jail.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Capt.fuegerstef
          Again you are wrong...

          You're not kidding! :noob:

          Comment


            A most interesting debate.

            What I think everyone has missed in MajikMyst's blathering is that he can't stand being told by a German that nobody over here in Europe gives a monkey's toss about his American laws. (They are, of course, totally irrelevant).

            Do us all a favour mate, take a valium, and accept that you misinterpreted what you read in those agreements.

            Comment


              OK, here's some of my trademark scary bottom line for you.

              1. LMFAO @ "legal" argument. Fact of the matter is, there's no money changing hands anywhere here ergo blind Justice isn't going to give this the time of day. This is the bush leagues, and whatever happens here happens.

              2. I've never sympathized with mappers who want to cry foul when somebody wants to nick part of their map. Odds are if somebody is doing that to you the frankenstein map isn't going to be as good as yours. If it's as good or better, then your original work isn't worth protecting to begin with. Go try again.

              3. I like Scud's server. I've never spent any kind of time with Scud himself, he could be a complete hosehead for all I know, but Darkside is definitely one of the rockin'est CTF servers around. So I thank him for that. :up:

              4. Hiya Vaneck.

              5. Scud is wrong here, firstly, because the map he's ripping is in beta. IMO good taste dictates you ought to at least let the map get finished before declaring it enough of a loss to canibalize.

              6. Scud is wrong here secondly and mainly because CTF-Celestria doesn't suck. At all. I'll grant you that it wouldn't work well on Darkside, but it's not designed for that. If the million- odd Cain's logos are any indication, that map is designed for 24 players on a skill level that's sub- competition, but still reasonably high- end for pubbers.

              And for that purpose, I think this map is going to be a winner . I just downloaded it (I was #6, BTW, what's up with that?! :bulb: ) and gave it a run offline and I'm ready to give it the big ol' :up:. I think Scud was probably right that the flagbases are a little cramped, but at high playercounts I think the flow is going to be right in the box. I love the jumppad action. TBFH I like it already way better than Romra -- but that's not hard because I hate Romra. :haha:

              Conceptually, this map is indeed the twisted lovechild of CTF-RomraMoonStation and DM-Spacenoxx. However, I think Kevinroe got it right and Scuddy got it wrong this time. GJ to Kevinroe, thanks for the good work, and I'm looking forward to seeing this on Cain's (he'd be a fool not to take it IMO).

              And there you go. Best man wins. Like it ought to be. :up:

              Comment


                Originally posted by Chiln_Viln
                ...I've heard that they have since resolved their differences, to a degree, and the fact has not been mentioned here...
                Originally posted by kevinroe327
                Map removed. Lesson Learned. etc. Try my new map.

                Originally posted by Discord
                ...I just downloaded it (I was #6, BTW, what's up with that?! :bulb: ) and gave it a run offline and I'm ready to give it the big ol' :up:...
                I rehosted the latest version last night, and because I delete all previous hosted versions, the post count is reset [Its not really important anyway, since I'd rather have 1 good suggestion over 50 downloads]


                O yeah, and MajikMyst is wrong.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Chiln_Viln
                  Dr. Sin, would it be a good idea for you and Epic to maybe
                  consider the implementation of some type of unmodifyable
                  content encrypted security code string into the Unreal Editor?
                  No, in my opinion that would be a horrible idea. See my other post.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by MajikMyst
                    {GOG}R4d4:

                    I am not missing anything. All maps are created using the UED. Map format, the game engine, scripting, ect. ect. are all owned by Epic. You make a texture and use it in a map, that map and the texture in the map belongs to Epic. Look the laws up yourself and go read a few other EULAs. They are all the same and say the same thing.

                    Epic could sell our maps if they so desired, with or without our permission. You can't sell them cause they were made with protected software and protected technologies.

                    As I said before, if you want to sell a texture you made then go for it. Epic can't say otherwise. Put in a map and try to sell the map and Epic will have issues.

                    No matter how many times you look at the sun and call it a sun.. It is a star and everyone else knows that.
                    Why in gods name to you keep coming back to this. Anything you create for UT2004 is intellectual property of the creator. Epic does have partial claim to something you create because you used their product, but not much. Also, someone else has already used this example, but by your logic anything written in Word is owned by Microsoft. Hell, anything ever created on any Windows OS is owned by Microsoft, because you used their product to create it. This is obviously wrong. You are obviously wrong.

                    Another reason why we cannot sell anything without Epic's consent is because of two things working together. The first thing is that under section 10 of the EULA, it states that your mods must work ONLY with full registered copies of their software. The second part is basically standard practice in any business, not just the computer industry, and its this: You cannot make money off of someone else's product without approval from them first. So, lets say you make a map. Your map is only allowed to work with official registered copies of Epic's software. Since you have to use their software to use your map, any money you would make off of your map you would also be making by using their software, and more importantly, their game engine. This they have forbidden, and therefore you cannot make money off of something you created for UT. Not because they own it, but because it utilizes something they own.


                    Edit:

                    Originally posted by DrSiN
                    No matter how many times you look at the moon and call it the sun.. it's still the moon and everyone else knows that.
                    Originally posted by MajikMyst
                    No matter how many times you look at the sun and call it a sun.. It is a star and everyone else knows that.
                    DrSiN is comparing two different things. You, however, are not. The sun is a star yes, but it is still the sun, and everybody knows that. Next time you try to mock someone by pseudo-quoting them, try using a quote that actually means the same thing as the original poster.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by DrSiN
                      No, in my opinion that would be a horrible idea. See my other post.
                      In that case how about removing the CD protection key from UT2007 and removing any copyright protection from UT2007? It would be better for the community, according to your logic. How about allowing everyone to use UT2007 meshes in Half-Life2? That would certainly improve gaming as a whole, if we follow your logic.

                      Some of the decisions made for UT2003 and UT2004 were short-sighted and led to the games demise and the refusal to implement some sort of protection that would be VOLUNTARILY applied by a mapper is just another example.... They help make your game popular and of course you have no problem seeing their work exploited. It's no surprise why the quality of maps from UT99 far exceeded anything in UT2004, because most of the talent left after UT99, once they saw the rampant ripping off of meshes and maps in UT2003 and UT2004.

                      If encryption is voluntarily an option and it's a bad idea, then mappers won't use it. However I'm willing to bet the majority of authors who spend a few months making a map and meshes to improve your game, would use such a system.

                      I hope Steve Polge considers a protection system for the unfortunate few who still map and mod for this game. He's the lead designer so it should definitely be on his agenda ...

                      Comment


                        Umm,,, Guys,,,, wouldn't all of this energy be better spent if we tried to get EPIC to fix their game code so it couldn't be hacked rather than worry about stupid maps and who copied what?????

                        Yes, this has been settled already, so now let's bust EPIC's *** to get us a cleaner, harder to hack game to enjoy. That's what I am talking about!

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by farman
                          If encryption is voluntarily an option and it's a bad idea, then mappers won't use it. However I'm willing to bet the majority of authors who spend a few months making a map and meshes to improve your game, would use such a system.

                          I hope Steve Polge considers a protection system for the unfortunate few who still map and mod for this game. He's the lead designer so it should definitely be on his agenda ... [/B]
                          :up: A wise man

                          Comment


                            I kinda skim-read a lot of the troll bating back there, but I figure I've pretty much picked up on the gist of it...

                            Two things that I'm curious about:

                            1) what about plugins to things like photoshop? Those things sure do sell for a _lot_ of money, yet they rely on the photoshop engine to run, does Adobe take a cut of any money the plugin-writers make?

                            2) Excel Macros - they definitely can/do change the behaviour of the program, and are certainly derivative works, yet I've not seen MS track down & sue the companies that sell them

                            I also wonder how difficult it would be to enforce the EULA, as in most cases, one just has to tick a box saying 'Ive read and agree to the aforementioned EULA', what's the stance if that's based on a lie in the first place (as I can't honestly imagine _anyone_ has read the EULA until this thread popped up....I still haven't )

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by clark kent
                              Umm,,, Guys,,,, wouldn't all of this energy be better spent if we tried to get EPIC to fix their game code so it couldn't be hacked rather than worry about stupid maps and who copied what?????

                              Yes, this has been settled already, so now let's bust EPIC's *** to get us a cleaner, harder to hack game to enjoy. That's what I am talking about!
                              There's no reason to change the subject?!? the bottom line is scud should have asked out of common courtesy. basically the only one's defending him as far as I can tell are the EMC guys who play on his server. ask ANYONE that has played on his server about him and you will get same reply as to his ignorance, Afro has already hit the nail on the head in this subject.

                              he took the time to modify the map and at the same time could have asked in a lot less time.

                              As far as map theft...there is nothing you can do thats worth your time.

                              If you map...expect it to be exploited.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by farman
                                In that case how about removing the CD protection key from UT2007 and removing any copyright protection from UT2007? It would be better for the community, according to your logic. How about allowing everyone to use UT2007 meshes in Half-Life2? That would certainly improve gaming as a whole, if we follow your logic.
                                This isn’t about helping gaming as a whole. This is about helping OUR community grow. By allowing others to use your work, you encourage new works. It helps to teach and it can help to inspire. When it becomes about props and about credit, you have lost sight of what modding is really about… Creating cool new stuff for people to enjoy.

                                And for the record, I’ve been creating mods long before I came to Epic. And everything I’ve created has always been opened for anyone to use it and I’ve encouraged reuse (with the exception of CSHP which had to be closed). Luckily I landed at Epic which shares that same value.


                                I hope Steve Polge considers a protection system for the unfortunate few who still map and mod for this game. He's the lead designer so it should definitely be on his agenda ...
                                Well you are certainly welcome to ask him. I only state my opinion, his may be different.

                                Comment

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