Map Piracy [Resolved-*Lock me*]

[legacy-MajikMyst]

Originally posted by Capt.fuegerstef
This is wrong. At least in Germany. Now you stand corrected.
I have copyrights on my map. But I may not SELL them or make profit from them.
But Magazines for example aren't allowed to publish my map without asking me.

Care to send me copies of your copy rights and what rights are you granted and what govrnment entity granted your copy rights?


I am not wrong and don't stand corrected. Even in Germany, you fall under the jurisdiction of US law and US copyright law. As signed by the treaties of our nations. Epic wouldn't sell the game in Germany if their rights weren't protected.

Read the EULA.

Magazines can post your maps. All they have to do is get permission from Epic games as they hold the actual copyright.

[legacy-Capt.fuegerstef]

Originally posted by MajikMyst

Read the EULA.

And here you are wrong. I don't have to obey all points in them just because it is written somewhere. :haha: I only have to follow the EULA rules that are conform with German law.

[=XM=]

No, the way the EULA works is that you own the copyright to your maps and mods (collectively called mods in the EULA) but you cannot distribute them commercially without Epic's written permission, just like they can't "take" your map and sell it without your permission (and giving you a few bucks for you to accept).

The map creator is the sole owner of the map although because of the way in which it is created, Epic has to authorise you if you want to charge for it.

http://www.epicgames.com/ut2k4_eula.html. One of the rare EULA's these days that is not written (completely) in Legalese. Some bits are pretty funny too, the second sentence reads "We're sorry to cramp your style." Can you see M$ doing a readable EULA that doesn't attempt to give you as little rights as possible and them as much control as possible. There is even a clause that allows use of all previous content from all Unreal games in mods. gg Epic (once again).

But then again, the debate of the legality and enforceability of EULA's is a whole debate on it's own and we don't want to hijack this thread do we? Even if the game's EULA says that any litigation is to take place in some court in North Carolina, local laws would probably take precedence as has been the case before. In some countries, clicking the "I accept" button might not even constitute a valid form of contract acceptance. So really, this is a pointless debate. Those limitation of liabillity and "no warranty" clauses they like to include to make themselves feel safe are also void in many countries btw.

For a good example of how US laws mean nothing outside of the US: http://static.thepiratebay.org/legal/.

[legacy-MajikMyst]

Originally posted by Capt.fuegerstef
And here you are wrong. I don't have to obey all points in them just because it is written somewhere. :haha: I only have to follow the EULA rules that are conform with German law.

Ummmm.. Right..

A quote from the EULA.

Copyright. The software and all copyrights, trademarks and all other concievable intellectual property rights related to the software are OWNED by Atari, Epic Inc. or such parties' licensors and are protected by United States copyrights laws, international treaty provisions, and all applicable law. You must treat the Software like any other copyrighted material, as required by 17 U.S.C. section 101.

Sorry dude. German law is meaningless for you in this issue. Your country signed a treaty with our country allowing the US to enforce all US copyright laws. If Germany didn't sign that treaty or wanted limitations in copyright laws. Chances are you wouldn't be allowed to buy UT2k4 in Germany as Epic's copy rights would not be protected as stated in the above provision. Epic simply wouldn't sell software in a country that wouldn't allow the full enforcement of US copyright laws.

Now go read the EULA. Particularly the sections on ownership and controlling law.

[legacy-Capt.fuegerstef]

Originally posted by MajikMyst
Ummmm.. Right..

A quote from the EULA.

Copyright. The software and all copyrights, trademarks and all other concievable intellectual property rights related to the software are OWNED by Atari, Epic Inc. or such parties' licensors and are protected by United States copyrights laws, international treaty provisions, and all applicable law. You must treat the Software like any other copyrighted material, as required by 17 U.S.C. section 101.

Sorry dude. German law is meaningless for you in this issue. Your country signed a treaty with our country allowing the US to enforce all US copyright laws. If Germany didn't sign that treaty or wanted limitations in copyright laws. Chances are you wouldn't be allowed to buy UT2k4 in Germany as Epic's copy rights would not be protected as stated in the above provision. Epic simply wouldn't sell software in a country that wouldn't allow Epic to enforce their copy rights.

Now go read the EULA. Particularly the sectionson ownership and controlling law.

Lot's of EULAs had beed said to be illegal by german and European courts. And even Microsoft lost these kinds of lawsuits in Europe.

[elmuerte]

Originally posted by MajikMyst
Care to send me copies of your copy rights and what rights are you granted and what govrnment entity granted your copy rights?

Doesn't anyone read the link I posted?
http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/Mod_Copyright

More info:
http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Copyright
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html
http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/
etc.

Originally posted by MajikMyst
I am not wrong and don't stand corrected. Even in Germany, you fall under the jurisdiction of US law and US copyright law. As signed by the treaties of our nations. Epic wouldn't sell the game in Germany if their rights weren't protected.

You are wrong. The USA law has absolutely no jurisdiction outside the USA. However, there are international treaties that contain guidelines of laws to be implemented in the national law. All countries that signed this treaty should implement it's guidlines.
some treaties include a clause that the signed countries will aid the other countries in order to resolve "issues". I could write a complete story about this, but I thinks i's better you pick up a book about internation law, I assume it will explain it better than I can do.

To cut things short, I can do things in the Netherlands (where I live) that are illegal in the USA, and they can't touch me with a 10th pole about it. Not until I commit that "crime" on their soil (or for some things if I violate an international right (that is implemented in the national law) of one of their citizens\companies).

Products sold by Epic in Germany fall under the german laws, they are automatically protected by that law. You can only sell products in a certain country when you have a valid "title", etc. Read the law of that country what this all means. However, Epic doesn't sell any products, their distributer does. And they will protect their investment.

Originally posted by MajikMyst
Read the EULA.

Done. And no EULA can take away rights I was granted by the national law. (at least not in the following countries: every EU country, USA, Canada).
the EULA is not a legal document and thus can not be enforced by law, but it can be challenged. Companies usually make sure there are not clauses in their EULA that renders it void because of rights granted by the national law. You would need to be very familiar with the national law in order to figure that one out.

Originally posted by MajikMyst
Magazines can post your maps. All they have to do is get permission from Epic games as they hold the actual copyright.

No, Epic doesn't own the copyright on your mod\map\etc, this is often confirmed by Epic officials. In order for somebody else or a company to get the copyrights of your creation you are both required to sign a legally binding document stating you are transfering your rights to the other party (this is often included in a work contract).
Epic grants you the right to use their tools to create add-ons for their games with the restriction that you may not charge for that creation. That's because Epic owns the rights to the required runtime environment (in this case UT2004). National (both US and Dutch, don't know about the other countries) law doesn't prevent them from requiringthat.


PS. you can give up your copyright on a creation by explicitly stating the creation is released as "public domain". Public domain means every body can use your creation as they see fit without any limitations. When you do not state something is released in the "public domain" then it's not period.

PPS. To be "safe" in case of copyright issues be sure to do the following:
always include at least one line (somewhere clearly visible) stating the following:
"Copyright <year of completion\release> <your real name>" (the word "copyright" isn't actually required, it makes it easier to find)
Without this you might get a hard time to defend your copyright when required (for example in court).

[legacy-MajikMyst]

Originally posted by =XM=
No, the way the EULA works is that you own the copyright to your maps and mods (collectively called mods in the EULA) but you cannot distribute them commercially without Epic's written permission, just like they can't "take" your map and sell it without your permission (and giving you a few bucks for you to accept).

The map creator is the sole owner of the map although because of the way in which it is created, Epic has to authorise you if you want to charge for it.

http://www.epicgames.com/ut2k4_eula.html. One of the rare EULA's these days that is not written (completely) in Legalese. Some bits are pretty funny too, the second sentence reads "We're sorry to cramp your style." Can you see M$ doing a readable EULA that doesn't attempt to give you as little rights as possible and them as much control as possible. There is even a clause that allows use of all previous content from all Unreal games in mods. gg Epic (once again).

But then again, the debate of the legality and enforceability of EULA's is a whole debate on it's own and we don't want to hijack this thread do we? Even if the game's EULA says that any litigation is to take place in some court in North Carolina, local laws would probably take precedence as has been the case before. In some countries, clicking the "I accept" button might not even constitute a valid form of contract acceptance. So really, this is a pointless debate. Those limitation of liabillity and "no warranty" clauses they like to include to make themselves feel safe are also void in many countries btw.

For a good example of how US laws mean nothing outside of the US: http://static.thepiratebay.org/legal/.

Please paste a quote directly from the EULA that gives you ownership of your maps or mods? It isn't there cause you don't own them.

11. Editor and End-user Mods.
(a) The Software includes an editor and associated tools and utilities (the “UnrealEd”). UnrealEd is a really cool feature which allows you to modify the Software or to construct new variations for use with it. These modifications and variations can be both playable and non-playable. UnrealEd is NOT shareware. You may not freely distribute it to any BBS, CD, floppy or any other media. You may not sell it or repackage it for sale.
(b) Using UnrealEd, you may create modifications or enhancements to the Software, including the construction of new levels (collectively referred to as “Mods”), subject to the following restrictions:
i. Your Mods must only work with the full, registered copy of the Software, not independently or with any other software.
ii. Your Mods must not contain modifications to any executable file(s).
iii. Your Mods must not contain any libelous, defamatory, or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party, nor may your Mods contain, or be used in conjunction with, any trademarks, copyright-protected work, or other recognizable property of third parties, nor may your Mods be used by you, or anyone else, for any commercial exploitation including, but not limited to: (a) advertising or marketing for a company, product or service.
iv. Your Mods shall not be supported by Atari, Epic or any of such parties' affiliates and subsidiaries, and if distributed pursuant to this license your Mods must include a statement to such effect.
v. Your Mods must be distributed solely for free, period. Neither you, nor any other person or party, may sell them to anyone, commercially exploit them in any way, or charge anyone for receiving or using them without prior written consent from Epic Games Inc. You may, exchange them at no charge among other end-users and distribute them to others over the Internet, on magazine cover disks, or otherwise for free.
vi. The prohibitions and restrictions in this section apply to anyone in possession of the Software or any of your Mods.
(c) We just LOVE the idea of you using and distributing content or script from any prior Epic Games, Unreal franchise game in Unreal Tournament 2004 Mod. Therefore we grant you a license to use content from any prior Epic Games Unreal franchise game in your Unreal Tournament 2004 Mods. For the sake of clarity you will not gain any ownership whatsoever in any Epic content or script nor can you use any Epic content outside the scope of the rights granted here. Any attempt to do so will bring about the wrath of our attorneys.

Again? Where are you granted ownership or any copyrights for any maps or mods? Read the last part again if you missed something.

For the German players.

12. Copyright. The Software and all copyrights, trademarks and all other conceivable intellectual property rights related to the Software are owned by Atari, Epic or such parties' licensors and are protected by United States copyrights laws, international treaty provisions, an army of clones, and all applicable law, such as the Lanham Act. You must treat the Software like any other copyrighted material, as required by 17 U.S.C. section 101 et seq. and other applicable law. Please do not make unauthorized copies. The program you've licensed was produced through the efforts of many people who earn their livelihood from its lawful use. These people like to eat, so don't make copies for others who have not paid for the right to use it. To report copyright violations to the Software Publishers Association, call 1-800-388-PIR8 or write: Software Publishers Association, 1101 Connecticut Ave., Suite 901, Washington, D.C. 20036.


As far as how Microsoft writes it's EULA's. You didn't understand the one from Epic, even though it, according to you is written in a more simple manner and not legalese. So how it was written doesn't make a difference. In either case they mean the same thing. You don't own the code, the software, or anything you create with the code or the software. If the country you live in sells the game legally then your country has a treaty to enforce our copyright laws. Any software program you buy will have the same type of EULA. They all same the same thing.

In short, when you buy a software program, you aren't actually buying the software. You a buying a license to use the software. In the case of game editors, the maps or mods are still owned by the game company as they would fall under intellectual property. You created the mod using their code and scripts to run in a game that they created.

[elmuerte]

what you highlighted from the eula covers only the creations of epic.
that is: their files (those that came on the CD\DVD of UT2004 (with exception to included user mods)).

not what you created

[legacy-Capt.fuegerstef]

No doubt in what you posted. But where does it state that my intelectual property (textures generated in Photoshop sounds generated in ProTools, etc...) may suddenly be distributed and stolen by anyone without asking ME for permission???

[=XM=]

Ok I have a some advice for you: Do not talk about what you don't know because it makes you look stupid.

Quoting whole paragraphs from the EULA and then highlighting in bold irrelevant sections makes you look even more stupid.

Re-read the EULA until you understand it. Then understand the EULA very often means **** all. Then read where people have pointed out you are wrong in this thread and why. Then maybe go do some research, even google is enough for some basic understanding of simple terms like what "international treaties" actually means, etc...

Yeah I lose patience easily with fools. Sorry.

[legacy-Capt.fuegerstef]

Originally posted by =XM=
Ok I have a some advice for you: Do not talk about what you don't know because it makes you look stupid.

Quoting whole paragraphs from the EULA and then highlighting in bold irrelevant sections makes you look even more stupid.

Re-read the EULA until you understand it. Then understand the EULA very often means **** all. Then read where people have pointed out you are wrong in this thread and why. Then maybe go do some research, even google is enough for some basic understanding of simple terms like what "international treaties" actually means, etc...

Yeah I lose patience easily with fools. Sorry.

well said.

[legacy-MajikMyst]

Man you all really need to read up on copyright laws.

Any texture you created and used in a map for UT2K4 becomes the property of Epic as the map is the property of Epic.

Any .ut2 file was generated by the UED. The UED is copyrighted by Epic. The sole purpose of the UED is to produce .ut2 files to be used in games copyrighted by Epic. Therefore any file produced by the UED falls under the protection of Epic's copyright. They own it.

If they didn't own the maps and mods then there is nothing stopping anyone from selling the maps or mods for a profit. If you truly owned your map then what is stopping you from selling them? What is stopping any map maker from filing suit against any other map maker for stealing a texture from one map and using it in another? Or filing suite over a mesh? You can't sell your maps because they aren't yours to sell. What part of that do you not understand?

[legacy-MajikMyst]

Originally posted by =XM=
Ok I have a some advice for you: Do not talk about what you don't know because it makes you look stupid.

Quoting whole paragraphs from the EULA and then highlighting in bold irrelevant sections makes you look even more stupid.

Re-read the EULA until you understand it. Then understand the EULA very often means **** all. Then read where people have pointed out you are wrong in this thread and why. Then maybe go do some research, even google is enough for some basic understanding of simple terms like what "international treaties" actually means, etc...

Yeah I lose patience easily with fools. Sorry.

The only fool here is you.

[legacy-MajikMyst]

Originally posted by Capt.fuegerstef
No doubt in what you posted. But where does it state that my intelectual property (textures generated in Photoshop sounds generated in ProTools, etc...) may suddenly be distributed and stolen by anyone without asking ME for permission???

For the sake of clarity you will not gain any ownership whatsoever in any Epic content or script nor can you use any Epic content outside the scope of the rights granted here. Any attempt to do so will bring about the wrath of our attorneys.


That is where. Your texture is used in a map and or script that contains Epic content. There is no seperating your texture from the map. If your texture didn't simply become the property of Epic, then they would have to pay you to use it in their game. As you own the texture. Since they own the texture when it used in their map, they don't have to pay you.

[The_Deacon]

Originally posted by MajikMyst
Any .ut2 file was generated by the UED. The UED is copyrighted by Epic. The sole purpose of the UED is to produce .ut2 files to be used in games copyrighted by Epic. Therefore any file produced by the UED falls under the protection of Epic's copyright. They own it.

Microsoft don't own any of my typed work just because I used MS Word to create it.

Microsoft (again) doesn't own the programs I write, just because I use MS Visual Studio to create them.

Corel (Jasc) don't own gfx work that I do just because I used Paint Shop Pro 8 to create it.

Same goes for people using Adobe Photoshop. If that were the case then Epic would be in the dock for using material copyrighted to Adobe in UT2004

Copyright of a program copyrights the functionality and code of the program, not what's created with the program.