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Map Piracy [Resolved-*Lock me*]

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  • replied
    wow, seeing majikmyst get owned so badly brings a tear to my eye and a smile to my heart. his posts and the following replies to completely decimate everything he said were the reasons why i read past the first page.





    scud is a piece of ****, a terrible player, and an annoying human being. he is a stain on the UT2k4 community, and running a popular is no reason to condone this asshat's terrible attitude and ridiculous actions. his server (darkside battlegrounds) has been run down into the same depths as other servers such as diitron. so he runs a server? whoopdy-fcking-do, that doesn't mean anything as far as helping the community. more like people only go there because the spectator slots are full in the scrapbin.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Discord
    Now THAT'S a stretch if I ever saw one. I mean c'mon, either you don't mind a little piracy here and there or you do. You can't say, "well, it's OK for me to warez this 3D modeller because I can't afford it, but nobody better lay a finger on the meshes I make with it because they haven't got the skills!" If you don't believe me on that, just ask the guys who made FarCry.
    I didn't say it's OK to use software illegally.
    I just said that whatever you make with it is still your IP.
    I'm not sure how the Farcry piracy scandal ended up, but I'm pretty sure it DIDN'T end up with all those models belonging to the authors of the 3d modeling tool.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by chrome_gnome
    I'm curious if someone could put a link to something that explains the references people have made in this thread to the new Unreal Engine being very "non-protectionist" and leading to reduced custom content.
    Basically that was a bunch of hooey.

    UEd has never, ever, ever provided any kind of DRM for user- made content and there's never really been any shortage of said content. Well... except that nobody made CTF maps for UT2k3, but that was BR's fault, not piracy's. :haha:

    UE3 will likely be the exact same deal, just more complicated.

    This whole argument is about ettiquette and cat- fighting amongst mappers more than anything. If you really want to come down to brass tacks on the subject, the way it works is this: if you want to get along with the mapping community, don't borrow somebody else's work without permission -- be that via email or through a general permission given through the readme.

    If, on the other hand, you don't really care one way or the other what mappers think of you, do what you like.

    I find that in most cases politeness is a good general policy to observe, even if I can't always restrain myself.

    I also find that a significant number of creative- type people have disproportionately huge egos, and therein lies a frequent source of unnecessary drama.

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  • replied
    I'm curious if someone could put a link to something that explains the references people have made in this thread to the new Unreal Engine being very "non-protectionist" and leading to reduced custom content.

    I've read some of the released info about UT 2007 but don't remember seeing any thing like this so I no doubt missed reading it.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Discord
    Now THAT'S a stretch if I ever saw one. I mean c'mon, either you don't mind a little piracy here and there or you do. You can't say, "well, it's OK for me to warez this 3D modeller because I can't afford it, but nobody better lay a finger on the meshes I make with it because they haven't got the skills!" If you don't believe me on that, just ask the guys who made FarCry.
    Excellent point. However, it's a bit on the impossible side to verify the validity of S/W ownership, or even make the request to do so. With IP, however, an accompanying ReadMe should take care of ownership, as that is where proper credit should be given. Not only should the artist/modeler/mapper/et al give proper credit of IP, they should also give credit to all the applicable software and providers they used in the making of said property. Most artists (et al) do include this information in their ReadMe files.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Boksha
    Not really. If you make a statue with a stolen hammer and chisel, it's still your statue and your IP.
    Now THAT'S a stretch if I ever saw one. I mean c'mon, either you don't mind a little piracy here and there or you do. You can't say, "well, it's OK for me to warez this 3D modeller because I can't afford it, but nobody better lay a finger on the meshes I make with it because they haven't got the skills!" If you don't believe me on that, just ask the guys who made FarCry.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by farman
    But after looking at your UT2004 maps I don't even know why I am even replying to your post
    Hey, they are 2 years old (made for UT2003). You learn alot in this time.

    I don't know any exact details, but I bet all the money I earn on one day that it will not be THAT hard to make custom content, as producing content for UE3 very fast is one of the main selling points of the Engine.

    Let'S talk about that again in 1.5 years. Save this post to your HD to see I will be right.

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  • replied
    That auto gen for high poly to low poly sounds unreal. Nothing will be as good as the reconstruction of the model in low poly form.

    You are right that the phrase I put was for perhaps the well known level designers. So in a way it is non sense. Even if the map is not famous but has a unique style it will be much harder to take assets from. I guess this could also be non sense to the common Joe since not every new level designer has the skill to make maps with freeform.

    Either way I think in the future it will be harder to make assets for next gen games, but the tools coming out will also be better and you will still see one man machines who do everything and to the degree of mastery as the people in Epic games. Sure it will be rare… Very few people in this current community have made maps that are 90%-100% made from the main author. It is already hard to do maps and content but these few have taken the challenge and done it. As tools get better the workflow will be easier and people will cut the right amount of corners to make good content.

    The first map for the next gen to be released with full new content will be forever known in the community, it might not be the best of the maps but it will be looked at and that is what will force the level community to get better and make them see that it is possible to make new content with one person. It will happen.

    At the end if your hardcore enough to make content for the next gen engine you will be recognized and you will not be a common joe. So the fact that it will be hard to make stuff in the next gen engines the harder it will be for people to take stuff without somebody noticing.

    Like I said I think I am going to make all my stuff free of use (Public domain) because it already is just that people usually ask first. The best defense is having people use it with only one request that your name be put in the readme. And once you get some degree of fame that is no longer needed because the style of level designers start to scream out when you see a map. Not that every level designer is making levels for fame… I am not… The little fame I have is because I got better and people liked my maps. I always make my maps for fun. If I lose the fun factor I usually stop a map unfinshed.

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  • replied
    I think it would be an even better idea if mappers who have problems with content protection went to work in regular jobs where such things are actual issues of import to people other than themselves and left the production of toys like these to amateurs the way Epic obviously intended.

    Assuming, of course, that getting hired anywhere is an option for them.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Capt.fuegerstef
    You only build the high poly mesh. The LowPoly Version and the the Bump/VD Maps are auto-generated (The latter can easily be combined witha plain material).


    EDIT:
    And reading the rest of the post I see you have no clue about other things too. :bulb:
    You have no clue my friend. Even 3Ds max let's you optimize and drastically lower polycount automatically and often the results are not that satisfactory and you have to go in and tweak by hand. Boksha also makes this point.

    I've heard Epic mentioned something about autogenerating a lower poly version but it probably will have to be tweaked by hand afterwards and I have no clue if they are even using that tool extensively.

    But after looking at your UT2004 maps I don't even know why I am even replying to your post

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  • replied
    Originally posted by farman
    Yes part of what he meant is as you stated but the phrase that he uses : "and everyone will know that map is from Shane" , can only be interpreted to mean that people will recognize Shane's style and meshes if they see another map that has copied content from Magma. This clearly does not apply to average mapper and everyone will assume that the author listed in the Level, created the custom content.
    Dunno. I thought he meant it as in "most people have seen Magma before so they'll know the other map's ripped".
    Either way you're right it doesn't apply to beginning or average mappers.

    Anyway, something that hasn't been mentioned before, when it comes to mapping, it might be a good idea for mappers to band together to form mappacks (this also makes it easier for artists and layout designers to work together). These packs generally get more publicity than single maps, which makes it a lot less attractive for idiots to rip parts of, and when someone does rip parts, you have a little more reach to get back at the person in question (due to the pack already being known)

    Originally posted by Capt.fuegerstef
    You only build the high poly mesh. The LowPoly Version and the the Bump/VD Maps are auto-generated (The latter can easily be combined witha plain material).
    I doubt the low poly version will be autogenerated. Autogenerated low-detail models SUCK. (UT2k4's playermodel LOD models are a good example of this: Abaddon's low-poly version doesn't look anything like the original and lacks much more detail than it should. If that model was done by hand it probably would look better with less polygons)

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  • replied
    For a mesh of a statue you will need to build the 8000 poly low res mesh, and also build the perhaps 1 million+ polygon hi-res version to use for the normal mapping etc...then you need to texture the mesh and then perhaps animate it.
    You only build the high poly mesh. The LowPoly Version and the the Bump/VD Maps are auto-generated (The latter can easily be combined witha plain material).


    EDIT:
    And reading the rest of the post I see you have no clue about other things too. :bulb:

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Boksha
    I think you misunderstood. What Desp meant is that Magma is made completely of meshes that only fit to each other (which is what he meant by freestyle), so the only way to rip anything from Magma is to copy the whole map; you can't just take parts of it, or it's very hard at least.
    If you copy a whole map and claim it as your own, it's much easier to show it's plagiarism, and much easier to recognise as such by other people.
    Yes part of what he meant is as you stated but the phrase that he uses : "and everyone will know that map is from Shane" , can only be interpreted to mean that people will recognize Shane's style and meshes if they see another map that has copied content from Magma. This clearly does not apply to average mapper and everyone will assume that the author listed in the Level, created the custom content.

    It's not difficult at all to incorporate a stolen mesh in a map if you are doing a map with a similar theme as the stolen mesh and many items such as a tree or a chair can fit in almost any map of any theme without too much trouble.

    I don't think people fully understand the amount of work it will now take to do a map or mod full of custom stuff that equals retail quality for Next Generation games. For a mesh of a statue you will need to build the 8000 poly low res mesh, and also build the perhaps 1 million+ polygon hi-res version to use for the normal mapping etc...then you need to texture the mesh and then perhaps animate it. It could conceivably take days, or weeks to build one single complex mesh depending on a person's experience. Why waste the effort when you can use one of the retail meshes and not have to worry about being ripped off without credit?

    Most people once ripped off will not put that effort into doing such a thing again. They will not want to create custom stuff for UT2007.

    I find it interesting that epic employees take this situation for granted and it will be even funnier to see their reaction when the modding scene becomes even smaller than it is for UT2004 at least for original artwork

    To see how shortsighted they have become. Epic or Digital Extremes did not even want to see individual custom map authors credited for their work in UT2003 because Epic's and Digital Extreme's maps were most often made by many team members and they did not want anyone to take credit for it.

    Epic/DE did not even want to give custom map authors the ability to put their name on their own maps in the map's preview screenshot because they(Epic/DE) could not do it themselves.

    Luckily map authors rebelled and the ability was added later. That is why Epic's refusal to offer some sort of optional content protection does not surprise me in the least

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  • replied
    Originally posted by KoperniK
    It seems an awful lot of people are using what is a rather expensive and, for most, an unaffordable application ...and if so then surely all arguments are out the window
    Not really. If you make a statue with a stolen hammer and chisel, it's still your statue and your IP. At worst you get fined for stealing the tools and if you stole them from another artist, you may have to pay for him being unable to make a statue of his own (not having his tools), but that's as far as it goes. If things didn't work like that, law would become completely unusable. (with ridiculous possibilities of, for example, a shopkeeper claiming someone's monthly salary because he got the job from an interview where he used a stolen bottle of deodorant)

    Originally posted by farman
    That makes no sense at all. Shane is an epic employee, Magama is a retail map. Of course people might recognize meshes from it but this does not apply to the average joe who nobody knows. Most of the time most people have no clue who created what in a map, they just assume it was created by the person listed as the author.
    I think you misunderstood. What Desp meant is that Magma is made completely of meshes that only fit to each other (which is what he meant by freestyle), so the only way to rip anything from Magma is to copy the whole map; you can't just take parts of it, or it's very hard at least.
    If you copy a whole map and claim it as your own, it's much easier to show it's plagiarism, and much easier to recognise as such by other people.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Angel_Mapper
    Wait, are you even a mapper? :bulb:
    I'm as much of a mapper as anyone that ever opened up the editing program and knocked something out with it to see how it works.

    Which is to say, I'm a mapper like most people who bought this program. I'm certainly not any kind of "real" mapper, if that's what you're asking.

    But I think "real" mappers are very much the exception rather than the rule, and that the tools sold with this game were put there more for the benefit of amateurs like me, than any "real" mappers that might turn up.

    And I think most normal people that use this game have a little less than no interest in the property rights problems of "real" mappers, and don't want to be bothered about them.

    And I think I don't need any kind of special "mapper" badge to say so.

    ...

    On the other hand I think anyone who pays attention knows you're a good mapper and appreciates what you've done with this stuff, and we all wish you lots of success with that.

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