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    That auto gen for high poly to low poly sounds unreal. Nothing will be as good as the reconstruction of the model in low poly form.

    You are right that the phrase I put was for perhaps the well known level designers. So in a way it is non sense. Even if the map is not famous but has a unique style it will be much harder to take assets from. I guess this could also be non sense to the common Joe since not every new level designer has the skill to make maps with freeform.

    Either way I think in the future it will be harder to make assets for next gen games, but the tools coming out will also be better and you will still see one man machines who do everything and to the degree of mastery as the people in Epic games. Sure it will be rare… Very few people in this current community have made maps that are 90%-100% made from the main author. It is already hard to do maps and content but these few have taken the challenge and done it. As tools get better the workflow will be easier and people will cut the right amount of corners to make good content.

    The first map for the next gen to be released with full new content will be forever known in the community, it might not be the best of the maps but it will be looked at and that is what will force the level community to get better and make them see that it is possible to make new content with one person. It will happen.

    At the end if your hardcore enough to make content for the next gen engine you will be recognized and you will not be a common joe. So the fact that it will be hard to make stuff in the next gen engines the harder it will be for people to take stuff without somebody noticing.

    Like I said I think I am going to make all my stuff free of use (Public domain) because it already is just that people usually ask first. The best defense is having people use it with only one request that your name be put in the readme. And once you get some degree of fame that is no longer needed because the style of level designers start to scream out when you see a map. Not that every level designer is making levels for fame… I am not… The little fame I have is because I got better and people liked my maps. I always make my maps for fun. If I lose the fun factor I usually stop a map unfinshed.

    Comment


      Originally posted by farman
      But after looking at your UT2004 maps I don't even know why I am even replying to your post
      Hey, they are 2 years old (made for UT2003). You learn alot in this time.

      I don't know any exact details, but I bet all the money I earn on one day that it will not be THAT hard to make custom content, as producing content for UE3 very fast is one of the main selling points of the Engine.

      Let'S talk about that again in 1.5 years. Save this post to your HD to see I will be right.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Boksha
        Not really. If you make a statue with a stolen hammer and chisel, it's still your statue and your IP.
        Now THAT'S a stretch if I ever saw one. I mean c'mon, either you don't mind a little piracy here and there or you do. You can't say, "well, it's OK for me to warez this 3D modeller because I can't afford it, but nobody better lay a finger on the meshes I make with it because they haven't got the skills!" If you don't believe me on that, just ask the guys who made FarCry.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Discord
          Now THAT'S a stretch if I ever saw one. I mean c'mon, either you don't mind a little piracy here and there or you do. You can't say, "well, it's OK for me to warez this 3D modeller because I can't afford it, but nobody better lay a finger on the meshes I make with it because they haven't got the skills!" If you don't believe me on that, just ask the guys who made FarCry.
          Excellent point. However, it's a bit on the impossible side to verify the validity of S/W ownership, or even make the request to do so. With IP, however, an accompanying ReadMe should take care of ownership, as that is where proper credit should be given. Not only should the artist/modeler/mapper/et al give proper credit of IP, they should also give credit to all the applicable software and providers they used in the making of said property. Most artists (et al) do include this information in their ReadMe files.

          Comment


            I'm curious if someone could put a link to something that explains the references people have made in this thread to the new Unreal Engine being very "non-protectionist" and leading to reduced custom content.

            I've read some of the released info about UT 2007 but don't remember seeing any thing like this so I no doubt missed reading it.

            Comment


              Originally posted by chrome_gnome
              I'm curious if someone could put a link to something that explains the references people have made in this thread to the new Unreal Engine being very "non-protectionist" and leading to reduced custom content.
              Basically that was a bunch of hooey.

              UEd has never, ever, ever provided any kind of DRM for user- made content and there's never really been any shortage of said content. Well... except that nobody made CTF maps for UT2k3, but that was BR's fault, not piracy's. :haha:

              UE3 will likely be the exact same deal, just more complicated.

              This whole argument is about ettiquette and cat- fighting amongst mappers more than anything. If you really want to come down to brass tacks on the subject, the way it works is this: if you want to get along with the mapping community, don't borrow somebody else's work without permission -- be that via email or through a general permission given through the readme.

              If, on the other hand, you don't really care one way or the other what mappers think of you, do what you like.

              I find that in most cases politeness is a good general policy to observe, even if I can't always restrain myself.

              I also find that a significant number of creative- type people have disproportionately huge egos, and therein lies a frequent source of unnecessary drama.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Discord
                Now THAT'S a stretch if I ever saw one. I mean c'mon, either you don't mind a little piracy here and there or you do. You can't say, "well, it's OK for me to warez this 3D modeller because I can't afford it, but nobody better lay a finger on the meshes I make with it because they haven't got the skills!" If you don't believe me on that, just ask the guys who made FarCry.
                I didn't say it's OK to use software illegally.
                I just said that whatever you make with it is still your IP.
                I'm not sure how the Farcry piracy scandal ended up, but I'm pretty sure it DIDN'T end up with all those models belonging to the authors of the 3d modeling tool.

                Comment


                  wow, seeing majikmyst get owned so badly brings a tear to my eye and a smile to my heart. his posts and the following replies to completely decimate everything he said were the reasons why i read past the first page.





                  scud is a piece of ****, a terrible player, and an annoying human being. he is a stain on the UT2k4 community, and running a popular is no reason to condone this asshat's terrible attitude and ridiculous actions. his server (darkside battlegrounds) has been run down into the same depths as other servers such as diitron. so he runs a server? whoopdy-fcking-do, that doesn't mean anything as far as helping the community. more like people only go there because the spectator slots are full in the scrapbin.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Boksha
                    I didn't say it's OK to use software illegally.
                    I just said that whatever you make with it is still your IP.
                    I'm not sure how the Farcry piracy scandal ended up, but I'm pretty sure it DIDN'T end up with all those models belonging to the authors of the 3d modeling tool.
                    Legally? Probably depends on jurisdiction. Ethically? That's an ugly can of worms you've got there.

                    And given that the legal threat to non- commercial, amateur rippers of non- commercial, amateur artwork is negligible, I expect you'll want to leave the law be and maintain the moral high- ground here.

                    I'm not sure how the Farcry piracy scandal ended up, but I'm pretty sure it DIDN'T end up with all those models belonging to the authors of the 3d modeling tool.
                    IIRC they just coughed up for licenses, got a stern finger- wagging and that was that.

                    Had they for some reason not had the money on hand, though... depending on the value of the software it's not inconceivable that at least a portion of the legal rights to the game could have changed hands. After all, in legal- land IP is just another commodity with a simple cash value.

                    And to extend that, if I manage to make some kind of money in the process of stealing somebody's work (either by winning the MSUC or going retail in some other way), then yeah it might very well be worth their time to come after me and if they could prove they created the artwork I'd be buggered... and rightly so, because that's deeply wrong. People who screw artists out of paychecks ought to be fully immersed in dung in the lowest circle of hell IMO.

                    So yeah, like you I'm not saying that stealing peoples' work is right. I'll even go you one more and say that requiring users of UEd to allow any and all non- commercial reuse of artwork would be at least severely uncool.

                    What I'm saying, though, is that there are times when an amateur creator's rights ought to be rigorously enforced and there are times when it's probably best to let things slide a little.

                    Here at home in our little creative backyard, I'd go so far as to say that a map with "ripped" artwork that gets popular ought to be demanded to at least credit the other creator involved. Seems fair. But going ballistic every time some UEd n00b cranks out a laughable frankenstein map seems kind of excessive to me. Having played in a couple of bands I can easily tell you that if you can't handle the wierdness that sometimes happens when your "opus" meets Joe Public, you might want to consider a different hobby. Desp hit it right on the head when he said that he's amused when somebody reinterprets his stuff... all that means is that he's successfully spoken to somebody.

                    And really, the "credit" thing isn't as big a deal as it looks like from within the mapping community. I really can't for the life of me remember the names of the people who created even my favorite custom maps... I don't think that makes me evil, I think that probably just makes me a typical consumer.

                    So IMO you guys/ gals ought to lighten up a teensy bit and save the wrath for the cases in which it's really warranted.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by chrome_gnome
                      I'm curious if someone could put a link to something that explains the references people have made in this thread to the new Unreal Engine being very "non-protectionist" and leading to reduced custom content.

                      I've read some of the released info about UT 2007 but don't remember seeing any thing like this so I no doubt missed reading it.
                      First, pay no attention to Discord :haha:

                      UT99 featured maps made almost entirely of BSP which was hard to steal from in the sense that you could run into problems during the compile process, in addition to the fact that mappers could delete the BSP to prevent you from stealing it. Back then stealing was not too big of an issue.

                      UT2003-UT2004 maps are now made largely of static meshes and prefabs which take 2 seconds to steal and these cannot be erased like BSP. A map can be thrown together in minutes simply using prebuilt meshes. In other words it is far easier to steal content from UT2003 and UT2004 .

                      Hence -> mapping dumb down (lego style) + a Kiddy cartoon version of UT (AKA UT2003) = more juveniles start mapping with the attitude that they can take whatever they want and take credit for it .

                      Many mappers that got ripped off stopped mapping, but most probably left because UT2003 and UT2004 just were not fun games.

                      With the increased difficulty for those who want to make custom made content, you can be sure that this theft problem will cause many people to stop making mods with mostly custom content in them and some just won't make content for UT2007 at all.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Desp#2
                        The first map for the next gen to be released with full new content will be forever known in the community, it might not be the best of the maps but it will be looked at and that is what will force the level community to get better and make them see that it is possible to make new content with one person. It will happen.

                        At the end if your hardcore enough to make content for the next gen engine you will be recognized and you will not be a common joe. So the fact that it will be hard to make stuff in the next gen engines the harder it will be for people to take stuff without somebody noticing.
                        When UT2007 comes out I expect the first custom levels to be largely without normal mapping for maps made almost entirely of custom content, but some will look decent. The problem is compared to the retail versions, these levels might seem flat(less 3D) by comparison. Anyone who rises to the occasion and surpassess retail quality with their mods or maps deserves the right to decide whether their work should be protected or not.

                        As I pointed out earlier, protected maps do not in any way harm the community nor do they prevent other people from learning. This is the biggest misconception. When is the last time you looked at a 10,000 polygon "collapsed" mesh and was able to figure out how it was constructed. Not very likely and if you want to look at meshes, then use the retail ones for examples

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by The_Deacon
                          To me there's a trade off between making a map difficult to pirate (BSP delete etc), and making a map that honest people can learn from.

                          Some way to 'lock' a map from being edited at all, but still viewable (no copy paste either) might in theory be a good thing, but there's probably drawbacks since I only thought about it for around 30 seconds
                          That's a pretty good idea Purp, but I doubt anyone would WANT to steal from my awful attempts at mapping (Battlefields)

                          Comment


                            Here is an example of how long it could take to do detailed models, for those who think building high quality models that match retail models is a trivial task.

                            The developers working on Project Gotham Racing for the XBOX 360 state in OXM magazine, that it takes: "6 weeks to create one car, 40.000 polys for the interior alone"

                            Now obviously most models won't take nearly that long to build, but you can see it takes quite a lot of effort from someone who is a professional. Now just imagine the poor novice who wastes his time trying to match that, only to get his mesh ripped off without any credit

                            Comment


                              I've been reading this thread and there's one thing that's been bothering the hell out of me.

                              MajikMyst, for the love of God, it's spelled YOU'RE.

                              Comment


                                6 weeks?

                                those guys are taking 15 coffee/smoke breaks a day and riding the clock a lot then.

                                if i were being paid to do it 8 hours a day i could probably crank out 2 full pro quality maps in that time. If, of course, i dident run out of ideas.

                                and im a noob mapper

                                adendum. unless they are working with Radiant. then i could see the 6 week time frame due to 4 weeks in an Alcohol/Depression Recovery Center.

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