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    Originally posted by Angel_Mapper
    Yes, because a one minute email to the person to ask permission to use their stuff is SOOOO difficult.
    Maybe it is, and so what? Anybody that pays any attention knows where it came from and it's generally of no commercial value anyway, except insofar as it might help you get a real job somewhere.

    You can't accomplish anything by making an issue out of this, other than to discourage the amateurs the forms were created for from getting involved in the first place.

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      Wait, are you even a mapper? :bulb:

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        Gah… Ill just make my next work Public Domain…

        The best way to prevent theft is by making designs that are freeform instead of repeated theme throughout the whole map. For example copying Magma will always be Magma and everyone will know that map is from Shane. The more freeform the design style is, the less people will want to copy sections form it for use on other maps because it makes it so much harder.

        Still to date I have had people asking me if they can use the Skaarj set… I always say sure go right ahead but it is not really mine anymore. Plus the initial design style was from Shane and other people in Epic… I just recreated with the past ideas that were supplied.

        Everyone who has contacted me for some staticmeshs I made or anything. Even the bigger staticmeshs that pretty much represent a level I give permission to. Because I know at the end that I made that mesh and nobody else will really be able to claim it. I have also had countless people use a tiled texture that got released with DM-Nirvana without my permission and I do not care. It is actually fun seeing those things happen.

        I believe I heard a line somewhere… “If I have inspired someone in any way or form, that is more rewarding than anything else in my life” I am still a copycat of old artist some dead or alive. Learning is using other elements and creating something diff because nothing is 100% new. Not saying theft is right but in some cases it is a process of learning.

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          Originally posted by Desp#2
          Gah… Ill just make my next work Public Domain…

          The best way to prevent theft is by making designs that are freeform instead of repeated theme throughout the whole map. For example copying Magma will always be Magma and everyone will know that map is from Shane. The more freeform the design style is, the less people will want to copy sections form it for use on other maps because it makes it so much harder.

          Still to date I have had people asking me if they can use the Skaarj set… I always say sure go right ahead but it is not really mine anymore. Plus the initial design style was from Shane and other people in Epic… I just recreated with the past ideas that were supplied.

          Everyone who has contacted me for some staticmeshs I made or anything. Even the bigger staticmeshs that pretty much represent a level I give permission to. Because I know at the end that I made that mesh and nobody else will really be able to claim it. I have also had countless people use a tiled texture that got released with DM-Nirvana without my permission and I do not care. It is actually fun seeing those things happen.

          I believe I heard a line somewhere… “If I have inspired someone in any way or form, that is more rewarding than anything else in my life” I am still a copycat of old artist some dead or alive. Learning is using other elements and creating something diff because nothing is 100% new. Not saying theft is right but in some cases it is a process of learning.
          That is probably the best post I've read on this site. :up:

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            Originally posted by Desp#2
            For example copying Magma will always be Magma and everyone will know that map is from Shane.
            That makes no sense at all. Shane is an epic employee, Magama is a retail map. Of course people might recognize meshes from it but this does not apply to the average joe who nobody knows. Most of the time most people have no clue who created what in a map, they just assume it was created by the person listed as the author.

            Originally posted by Desp#2
            Learning is using other elements and creating something diff because nothing is 100% new. Not saying theft is right but in some cases it is a process of learning.
            Nonsense once again. You don't have to steal meshes to learn, AND you certainly don't have to RELEASE a map with stolen meshes. Use the maps that came with the game if you want to learn or go read a tutorial

            Original custom content will be extremely rare in UT2007 since there is no protection provided. I pity the fool who builds a much higher quality map than anything released from Epic and who does the workload of an entire crew of people getting paid, and then gets his work stolen and other people take credit for his labor . Then he has to listen to comments like: "well its for the good of the community and the map ripper was just learning".

            This is not a big concern unless you are trying to build up a free and large mod community. UT2007 will not have one - at least not one where there is original custom made content

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              BBQSCUDBUTT should be utan banned. He banned me from his server for speed hacking when I did a piston jump.

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                Originally posted by DrSiN
                When you create an original work, it is your intellectual property.

                .....

                As for the work you do becoming the property of Epic. This is completely untrue. First off the EULA could never be used to force assignment of ownership and you DO own your IP.

                ........

                .... since it’s your IP, we can’t just snatch it up and sell it or use it without your permission.

                Hmmmm.....

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                  Quick question about those textures you created in Photoshop...

                  Without jumping to any conclusions, did you actually pay the $600 for your photoshop license?

                  It seems an awful lot of people are using what is a rather expensive and, for most, an unaffordable application ...and if so then surely all arguments are out the window


                  //devil's advocate mode off

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                    Originally posted by Angel_Mapper
                    Wait, are you even a mapper? :bulb:
                    I'm as much of a mapper as anyone that ever opened up the editing program and knocked something out with it to see how it works.

                    Which is to say, I'm a mapper like most people who bought this program. I'm certainly not any kind of "real" mapper, if that's what you're asking.

                    But I think "real" mappers are very much the exception rather than the rule, and that the tools sold with this game were put there more for the benefit of amateurs like me, than any "real" mappers that might turn up.

                    And I think most normal people that use this game have a little less than no interest in the property rights problems of "real" mappers, and don't want to be bothered about them.

                    And I think I don't need any kind of special "mapper" badge to say so.

                    ...

                    On the other hand I think anyone who pays attention knows you're a good mapper and appreciates what you've done with this stuff, and we all wish you lots of success with that.

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                      Originally posted by KoperniK
                      It seems an awful lot of people are using what is a rather expensive and, for most, an unaffordable application ...and if so then surely all arguments are out the window
                      Not really. If you make a statue with a stolen hammer and chisel, it's still your statue and your IP. At worst you get fined for stealing the tools and if you stole them from another artist, you may have to pay for him being unable to make a statue of his own (not having his tools), but that's as far as it goes. If things didn't work like that, law would become completely unusable. (with ridiculous possibilities of, for example, a shopkeeper claiming someone's monthly salary because he got the job from an interview where he used a stolen bottle of deodorant)

                      Originally posted by farman
                      That makes no sense at all. Shane is an epic employee, Magama is a retail map. Of course people might recognize meshes from it but this does not apply to the average joe who nobody knows. Most of the time most people have no clue who created what in a map, they just assume it was created by the person listed as the author.
                      I think you misunderstood. What Desp meant is that Magma is made completely of meshes that only fit to each other (which is what he meant by freestyle), so the only way to rip anything from Magma is to copy the whole map; you can't just take parts of it, or it's very hard at least.
                      If you copy a whole map and claim it as your own, it's much easier to show it's plagiarism, and much easier to recognise as such by other people.

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                        Originally posted by Boksha
                        I think you misunderstood. What Desp meant is that Magma is made completely of meshes that only fit to each other (which is what he meant by freestyle), so the only way to rip anything from Magma is to copy the whole map; you can't just take parts of it, or it's very hard at least.
                        If you copy a whole map and claim it as your own, it's much easier to show it's plagiarism, and much easier to recognise as such by other people.
                        Yes part of what he meant is as you stated but the phrase that he uses : "and everyone will know that map is from Shane" , can only be interpreted to mean that people will recognize Shane's style and meshes if they see another map that has copied content from Magma. This clearly does not apply to average mapper and everyone will assume that the author listed in the Level, created the custom content.

                        It's not difficult at all to incorporate a stolen mesh in a map if you are doing a map with a similar theme as the stolen mesh and many items such as a tree or a chair can fit in almost any map of any theme without too much trouble.

                        I don't think people fully understand the amount of work it will now take to do a map or mod full of custom stuff that equals retail quality for Next Generation games. For a mesh of a statue you will need to build the 8000 poly low res mesh, and also build the perhaps 1 million+ polygon hi-res version to use for the normal mapping etc...then you need to texture the mesh and then perhaps animate it. It could conceivably take days, or weeks to build one single complex mesh depending on a person's experience. Why waste the effort when you can use one of the retail meshes and not have to worry about being ripped off without credit?

                        Most people once ripped off will not put that effort into doing such a thing again. They will not want to create custom stuff for UT2007.

                        I find it interesting that epic employees take this situation for granted and it will be even funnier to see their reaction when the modding scene becomes even smaller than it is for UT2004 at least for original artwork

                        To see how shortsighted they have become. Epic or Digital Extremes did not even want to see individual custom map authors credited for their work in UT2003 because Epic's and Digital Extreme's maps were most often made by many team members and they did not want anyone to take credit for it.

                        Epic/DE did not even want to give custom map authors the ability to put their name on their own maps in the map's preview screenshot because they(Epic/DE) could not do it themselves.

                        Luckily map authors rebelled and the ability was added later. That is why Epic's refusal to offer some sort of optional content protection does not surprise me in the least

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                          For a mesh of a statue you will need to build the 8000 poly low res mesh, and also build the perhaps 1 million+ polygon hi-res version to use for the normal mapping etc...then you need to texture the mesh and then perhaps animate it.
                          You only build the high poly mesh. The LowPoly Version and the the Bump/VD Maps are auto-generated (The latter can easily be combined witha plain material).


                          EDIT:
                          And reading the rest of the post I see you have no clue about other things too. :bulb:

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                            Originally posted by farman
                            Yes part of what he meant is as you stated but the phrase that he uses : "and everyone will know that map is from Shane" , can only be interpreted to mean that people will recognize Shane's style and meshes if they see another map that has copied content from Magma. This clearly does not apply to average mapper and everyone will assume that the author listed in the Level, created the custom content.
                            Dunno. I thought he meant it as in "most people have seen Magma before so they'll know the other map's ripped".
                            Either way you're right it doesn't apply to beginning or average mappers.

                            Anyway, something that hasn't been mentioned before, when it comes to mapping, it might be a good idea for mappers to band together to form mappacks (this also makes it easier for artists and layout designers to work together). These packs generally get more publicity than single maps, which makes it a lot less attractive for idiots to rip parts of, and when someone does rip parts, you have a little more reach to get back at the person in question (due to the pack already being known)

                            Originally posted by Capt.fuegerstef
                            You only build the high poly mesh. The LowPoly Version and the the Bump/VD Maps are auto-generated (The latter can easily be combined witha plain material).
                            I doubt the low poly version will be autogenerated. Autogenerated low-detail models SUCK. (UT2k4's playermodel LOD models are a good example of this: Abaddon's low-poly version doesn't look anything like the original and lacks much more detail than it should. If that model was done by hand it probably would look better with less polygons)

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Capt.fuegerstef
                              You only build the high poly mesh. The LowPoly Version and the the Bump/VD Maps are auto-generated (The latter can easily be combined witha plain material).


                              EDIT:
                              And reading the rest of the post I see you have no clue about other things too. :bulb:
                              You have no clue my friend. Even 3Ds max let's you optimize and drastically lower polycount automatically and often the results are not that satisfactory and you have to go in and tweak by hand. Boksha also makes this point.

                              I've heard Epic mentioned something about autogenerating a lower poly version but it probably will have to be tweaked by hand afterwards and I have no clue if they are even using that tool extensively.

                              But after looking at your UT2004 maps I don't even know why I am even replying to your post

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                                I think it would be an even better idea if mappers who have problems with content protection went to work in regular jobs where such things are actual issues of import to people other than themselves and left the production of toys like these to amateurs the way Epic obviously intended.

                                Assuming, of course, that getting hired anywhere is an option for them.

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