Map Piracy [Resolved-*Lock me*]

[Boksha]

RMFOO pretty much said what I think of it.
Opening maps/mods to see how they done things and learn how to do fancy stuff yourself: GOOOD.
Editing/reproducing mods without the original authors consent: BAAAD.

[legacy-Capt.fuegerstef]

The Sun was one of the first things man has given a name. It was unique then, cause people didn't know how the universe was like.
Stars were something different in that time.

[legacy-blh]

Originally posted by RFMOO
While it sounds all nice and rosy to say that all the work done by mappers and modders should be instantly and freely available source material for all others, like we are all one big happy commune or something, I don't think it is realistic.

It's perfectly realistic if Epic and cohorts have had the good sense to declare anything created out of the soil of their demense to be quote unquote open source, which God willing they have and long ago.

Because there's an infinite supply of peasants willing to pick up your hoe when you throw it down in disgust.

Don't like it? Get a job.

[Discord]

Originally posted by Angel_Mapper
But like you said, putting your work out to the community is good advertising as a lot of devs hang out here, and not just from Epic. As for the gameplay, it wouldn't need to be all that great if you're just looking to get noticed by companies to be an artist (for example, you'd hire Angelheart even though his maps don't play well).

Right... but there's only one Angelheart, yeah?

Now. How to get this all condensed properly.

As things currently stand, if an artist wants to get the kind of exposure that comes from a community release, he/ she generates the art and then goes through the tedium (I'm sure plenty of you feel that way) of generating a map to showcase it... this despite the fact (as assumed) that the artist is mainly interested in making art and really CBA with design issues.

So, the artist makes the art map, it gets ooohed and aaaahed for about 2 weeks offline, and then drops off the face of the Earth because it isn't really preferred for online play.

Then on the other hand, you've got the layout genius who's functionally colorblind... this guy makes great playing maps that look so- so at best. These maps are adored by competitors but never make it on the pub scene because they aren't pretty enough... meanwhile people get bored because of mediocre gameplay.

And it all HAS to be this way because of the system- wide obsession with some kind of playground version of DRM. If you made it, you and only you should use it... even if you can't necessarily put it to its best use.


Now, here's the radical vision of how things could be.

IMO artists should make art, and designers should design, and neither should have to suffer through the disliked part of the job (and thereby subject the community to the hardcore tease of half- finished work). Here's how that happens:

Artists don't make maps. Instead, artists make themes. There are a few popular (read: overused) themes currently extant in UE2: Egyptian/ desert, "big trees everywhere", UT industrial rehash, urban. Probably a few more.

Now what if, instead of wasting time making showcase maps, artists instead generated fully- developed "theme packs" which included a full array of textures, deco meshes, walkways, small buildings maybe, and possibly even ambient sounds (inclination, ability and equipment permitting). Once the artist felt the theme was complete, he/ she could release it under the blanket "I don't GAF what you do with this" license and move on to the next project. That way, the artist wouldn't have to do anything but art and would quickly build up a much fuller portfolio... along with the initial splash of a public release.

Then, as the theme gets tossed around the community you'll probably see a whole slew of beginners' maps, but... if the theme was cool and well- executed you'd probably see some layout geniuses who wanted to take a crack at developing it.

And of course, if you were sure you had a winner on your hands, you could always shop it directly to a talented mapper and forego the general release.

The end result, in all likelihood, would be a wider array of custom maps that both looked good and played good and thus achieved broader popularity... this would be good for the players, good for the artists, good for the designers, good for the game as a whole. In other words, good for the community. Further, it would allow creative types to focus more fully on their chosen concentration, it would optimise system- wide productivity (in terms of quantity, quality and overall "fahrvergnugen") and everybody would get loads of CV material out of it.

Dunno 'bout you, but it sounds like a win- win to me.

The open source movement has understood this for years. It was a boat that the UT crowd missed with UE2 and one that they'll proabably wish they were on come UE3 and the rise of the normalmap monster. All you have to do to achieve this is to realize which of your "digital rights" are helping you, and which ones you're tripping over.

[Angel_Mapper]

In an ideal world yes, but if it were going to happen it would be happening now. As it is very few artists operate that way (at least in the Unreal engine). Making a bunch of static meshes is meh compared to being able to use those to create your own world to put them in. I know for me at least, it would bug me that other people were getting credit for use of the meshes (different from credit for making them).

Plus you have to realize that not all mappers are in it to make a portfolio, so just making static meshes would be very boring.

[Boksha]

Not to mention that unless you place your static meshes in the design phase, placing non-custom (not specifically made for your map) static meshes is a real pain.
I agree the "Theme" approach probably isn't going to work.

[legacy-dinwitty]

Originally posted by -=¤willhaven¤=-
When your map is final and ready for release, delete all the BSP brushes and save the map for upload somewhere. Makes map piracy much harder.

doing a full rebuild, then deleting the brushes without a rebuild, the map still works?

I think if anyone makes a map and releases it to the world, make sure you are fully credited in the map.

You've done your work and others may anjoy your work play the map and enjoy.

Should someone snag architecture and stuff and make a new map, well, they took one idea and popped it to another map idea and made a new map out of it.

They should credit the original map maker(s) and maybe reference their work.
It is just having decency in the mappage world but its not always there.
Theres plenty of Face variations and Deck 16, and even fixed problems in those maps.

I always try to put credit where due in my work, if some piece of work is found and the resource cant be recalled or found, I try to note that.

Just remember someone snagging mappage won't have the full mapping skilz, but their working the editor, and Ued is always a learning experience.

Just remember you post up a map, its a sharing experience.

Point is I have a notice in my references, you may copy and use the map whatever, but if you place it for sale in some form, well, shoot me some money, I worked hard on it....8-D

[Discord]

@ Angel_Mapper & Boksha:

:haha: !

That's perfect, it's two schools of "mapping" nicely summarized.

Eye- candy: "That wouldn't satisfy my artistic needs."

Competition: "That'd be a pain in the ***."


And then, somewhere between the two poles you have a third possibility: trying to create a complete environment without structure could be pretty interesting, while a good sense of geomorphic design could well make such an approach meet more needs than you might expect -- probably not all, but enough to lighten the load significantly.

I think the idea at least bears investigation, and (he said lazily) if nobody else tries it out I might make my own lame attempt some time. I can at least work with PS, and some simple meshes aren't outside my scope...


Anyway, it's pretty clear there's a difference of opinion on the rights and wrongs of ripping. Some creators care, some don't. Try to remember, that makes it kind of confusing for the average lunkhead, so don't get too bent out of shape about it. It might be irritating and rude, but it's rarely evil- intentioned and I doubt it causes much in the way of substantial harm.

[Imaginos]

Stealing someone's work isn't right - it's that simple. Look all you want. Borrow with permission. Sadly, some people have no couth and think it's perfectly acceptable to help themselves to other people's work.. I'd compare it to lego mapping-- plugging in whatever they steal from elsewhere.

Another thing that should be simple:

your != you're

And ffs, stop with what DrSin said.. if the actual meaning is lost on you, arguing about the words won't help.

[legacy-blh]

The attraction of a set of tools like this as provided by Epic is that it allows amateurs to express themselves, maybe even develop some talent, for the reward of maybe seeing their work get used in the so called community.

That's what this is, amateur hour. If you want to, you can bellyache and agitate for your "rights" as regards what you do with the stuff Epic sold you, but for one thing I'd be surprised if this eventuality hasn't been forseen and planned for (and if it wasn't, it should have been), and for another, there's no way you're going to get any real popular participation in these forms if you start trying to hogtie everybody that has an ounce of interest in them with a whole lot of legal red tape about what they're allowed to do. Which would destroy the whole point of Epic making the tools available in the first place.

If you want rights for your content, get a real job. Commercial art has got to be one of the biggest industries in the universe by now. There sure as hell is enough of it anyway. Go work making that stuff and find out how swell real artists get treated, whatever rights they have.

[Angel_Mapper]

Yes, because a one minute email to the person to ask permission to use their stuff is SOOOO difficult.

[legacy-Toonces T. Cat]

The Real Deal On Copyrights and Intellectual Property...

Yikes!!! I don't think I've seen this much misinformation in a thread...Ever!

Here is the end-all and be-all of copyrights and intellectual property rights in the U.S. summed up in one word...LAWYERS

Right or wrong, if you don't have a certified great white shark of an attorney to work your case...who also happens to specialize in the area...you won't have an icecube's chance in Hell of getting any satisfaction. These guys are money driven and you will not find them hanging around in the local ACLU or legal aid office.

How do I know this? Well, for those of you that don't know me, I am considerably older than most of you and I happen to work at a fairly large University that is a component of a gigantic University System. We employee 53 full-time attorneys in our System Office of General Counsel and a large number of them specialize in the above fields along with patent law. When any employee creates anything on the University's equipment and clock, the school shares the ownership with the creator. All the details are worked out in writing with the lawyers. Now, of course, this means the school gets part of the money. It also means that if anyone is stupid enough to plagiarize your material they will not be dealing with you alone, but also with the all legal forces of Hell.

Without that sort of protection, you are basically screwed if someone takes your stuff unless you are Bill Gates and can buy your own lawyer. No, it doesn't make it right. It's just how it is in real life. Your only real recourse is to do exactly what you have done here by exposing the nasty little ***** for the thief that he is...or if you know where he lives I suppose you could go stick an icepick in his tires...

The bottom-line is that you have every right to be angry. Just don't look for any other form of satisfaction or recourse as it's not gonna happen for you...Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

-Toonces

[Angel_Mapper]

Re: The Real Deal On Copyrights and Intellectual Property...

Originally posted by Toonces T. Cat
The bottom-line is that you have every right to be angry. Just don't look for any other form of satisfaction or recourse as it's not gonna happen for you...Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Most map hosting sites will remove maps with ripped content.

[legacy-Toonces T. Cat]

Re: Re: The Real Deal On Copyrights and Intellectual Property...

Originally posted by Angel_Mapper
Most map hosting sites will remove maps with ripped content.

Hey Rachel!

Yes, of course, you are correct about that. Any way you can think of to publically flog the perp on-line is fair game as far as I'm concerned.

I remember how we all reacted when some idiot was selling our levels on eBay...:haha:

-Toonces

[legacy-Justy]

The IALOL (International Association of Laughing Out Loud) has granted this thread a level rating of 9.0.