Spiders

[Hawke]

You can also throw spidermines at some1, wich does need prediction and usually results in an instant death. This is also very effective against manta guys who are capable of outflying every avrilmissle, you only need to throw 1 spider at it's front and ...by by manta.

Nobody seriously uses Mines for direct hits. I mean, if a manta's going to avoid every AVRiL you shoot at it, you're better off using your shock rifle than trying to get a random lucky mine hit on its nose.

[»madMar†y»]

Nobody seriously uses Mines for direct hits. I mean, if a manta's going to avoid every AVRiL you shoot at it, you're better off using your shock rifle than trying to get a random lucky mine hit on its nose.

Why not, if seen it quite often... Lately there was this guy who desperatly wanted to kill me with his manta and every avril attemt seemed to fail with him and yes normally you use the shockrifle as a nice alternative, but he was constantly in a short range around me so I also couldn't get an effective shockblast. As a last attemt I just stood still and waited for him to pancake me, but at the last second I threw a spider on his cockpit and that didn't have much to do with luck and you also don't need to aim very well for this.

[Trailboss3]

Would a spider with 2 nades stuck to it be an instant kill for full armor and health?

[Magwa]

Oh yeah trail more than enough

edit full armour and 199 health sorry i do not know but a load of goo will do it..

[Jake-SF]

Nobody seriously uses Mines for direct hits. I mean, if a manta's going to avoid every AVRiL you shoot at it, you're better off using your shock rifle than trying to get a random lucky mine hit on its nose.

I understand how you dislike the mine and all, but your getting heavy here : you always try to destroy every arguments when it comes to the mines, its getting a bit annoying, sorry.

Spider mines have use and different abilites that can be used, although some of those are pretty lame, you got that point since your first post in the topic. But they can be used and be effective - no need to get against these simply because you want them out and hate them.

[Hawke]

I understand how you dislike the mine and all, but your getting heavy here : you always try to destroy every arguments when it comes to the mines, its getting a bit annoying, sorry.

Spider mines have use and different abilites that can be used, although some of those are pretty lame, you got that point since your first post in the topic. But they can be used and be effective - no need to get against these simply because you want them out and hate them.

So is there an argument buried somewhere in this post or do you just feel like typing?

[Magwa]

well i am always more than ready...i use spiders in close combat especially against LPB's i throw them behind and to the sides it distracts them just long enough for me to kill them. When i have the flag in VCTF and i am hoofing it i lay them as i run in strategic places to ambush a over zealous attacker,i will put one on the flag with 3 grenades sticking to it ,and if possible hide and detonate when a unsuspecting person try's to grab my flag.I will put them on a enemy vehicle as i sneak into their base and explode them as they get in.I do not use them on poartals..and i still say there are to many of them but there are tons of good uses for them.Hows that for a argument

[Wail of Suicide]

If mines are to be kept, set mines to attack vehicles only.

[Xyx]

A player can hit you with mines from anywhere on the map, without knowing where you were.

Which kinda is the point of mines. That's their niche, their beauty, a weapon that for once does not require you to be on guard. The game needs stuff like that for (contrary to the sarcasm in some signatures) added strategic depth.

That spidermines are also crutches for unskilled players is a whole other point of debate.

[MrScruff23]

[IMG]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/Harsh_but_Fair/M_Logo3.jpg[/IMG]www.myspace.com/munchedtheband

[9ades]

I don't mind spiders much, hell I'll spam em around myself and I consider myself somewhat skilled.

A bit of a pain when you're attacking nodes and there's a whole swarm of them in addition to the other enemies.

Spiders are yet another reason to just fight from afar with hitscan.

[Oddside]

The first game I specced after replying in this thread.

All what people were doing: Placing Spidermines into Teleport exits... ...I mean, shield camping the portal with it's autofire is bad enough. With them dumb Spidermines they can camp the teleporters and go back to battle themselves.

Baaaaad design.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the whole point of the spiders? You place them somewhere that needs a measure of protection & then go off into the main battle. Placing them at teleporters is fine, you place 8 spiders, go somewhere else, one person goes through gets blown up and the spiders are no more, where's the problem? Even the 'worst' case is only 8 frags from such tactics. The only time this is bad is if the player places the mines & hangs around waiting to place more while doing nothing else. But that is a player problem not a weapon problem.

...Because every single method listed above requires an active player predicting exactly where his opponent will be at a given time due to information he has recieved by either seeing or hearing his opponent.

That's not entirely correct, quite often skymines are used in much the same way as spider mines, to make a choke point in the map impassable, it also makes it impossible to see or hear any opponent in the direction of fire. This requires zero prior knowledge of where the enemy is. I've also seen quite a few players fire off a random shot across a corner, just in case someone is waiting for them, most of the time no-one is there but occasionally someone is & that random shot did it's job.

The only problem I have with the spiders is that too many of them cause 'lag.' If someone is good enough to dislike being killed by a 'skill-less' AI, then they are good enough to avoid being killed by a 'skill-less' AI, in my opinion of course.

[fuegerstef]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the whole point of the spiders? You place them somewhere that needs a measure of protection & then go off into the main battle. Placing them at teleporters is fine, you place 8 spiders, go somewhere else, one person goes through gets blown up and the spiders are no more, where's the problem? Even the 'worst' case is only 8 frags from such tactics. The only time this is bad is if the player places the mines & hangs around waiting to place more while doing nothing else. But that is a player problem not a weapon problem.

Ok, I have a different idea of a fun MP game then.

I am glad that there are so many demoservers for you out there. On servers with higher average skills they are no problem anyways. Either the maps don't have them in (even the retail maps got changed) or people won't use them (for a good player they are a waste of time. But that makes it a whole different game than on demoservers. And a better one IMHO)

Too bad that these annoying Mines keeps the good players away from public/mine-spam servers and pushes them back into their passworded clan servers. Not good for a healthy game-community.
Another reason you almost only find demoservers filled.

If someone is good enough to dislike being killed by a 'skill-less' AI, then they are good enough to avoid being killed by a 'skill-less' AI, in my opinion of course.

As said several times in this thread: The problem isn't being killed by them. (except for the teleporting stuff)
You know why portal-shielding is banned even on some demoservers? Probably not! But with portal-shielding the shielding player is bound; with mines he isn't.


ALSO:
These mines keep new players from becoming useful. Often they do stuff like placing 8 mines and then letting them walk 50 yards towards the node to attack it . Just to be blown to pieces before the mines even come close to the node.(that's only one example, there are far more things they TRY with mines)
Take their mines away from them and they need to learn to attack a node in a useful way. With mines they will do their hopeless stuff over and over again.... ...with little to no success, hurting the team and the overall game.
Trust me. I am playing this game from day one of the first demo until now, where I play on the same servers as some of the top ONS players in the world. Additionally I admin two ONS demoservers, so I know the differences between the gamestyles.
Just make the other weapons so that the new players can get a frag with them and they have fun too without ruining the game and making their team lose.

[Oddside]

Ok, I have a different idea of a fun MP game then.

I am glad that there are so many demoservers for you out there. On servers with higher average skills they are no problem anyways.

So where's the problem?

Either the maps don't have them in (even the retail maps got changed) or people won't use them (for a good player they are a waste of time. But that makes it a whole different game than on demoservers. And a better one IMHO)

Not all maps have them removed. So you are saying that if you're a 'good' player, it's beneath you to lay mines at a node? If so, that's ridiculous.

Too bad that these annoying Mines keeps the good players away from public/mine-spam servers and pushes them back into their passworded clan servers. Not good for a healthy game-community.
Another reason you almost only find demoservers filled.

So the good players who have no problem in dealing with the mines don't play on servers that have them...why? Again, that's not a problem with the weapon.

As said several times in this thread: The problem isn't being killed by them. (except for the teleporting stuff)
You know why portal-shielding is banned even on some demoservers? Probably not! But with portal-shielding the shielding player is bound; with mines he isn't.

I just re-read the thread, & no one actually states a reason why they should be removed, the only thing that comes across is that they take zero skill to use & therefore should be removed. Which, by the way, is a very poor reason.

So again, what is the problem?

ALSO:
These mines keep new players from becoming useful. Often they do stuff like placing 8 mines and then letting them walk 50 yards towards the node to attack it . Just to be blown to pieces before the mines even come close to the node.(that's only one example, there are far more things they TRY with mines)
Take their mines away from them and they need to learn to attack a node in a useful way. With mines they will do their hopeless stuff over and over again.... ...with little to no success, hurting the team and the overall game.
Trust me. I am playing this game from day one of the first demo until now, where I play on the same servers as some of the top ONS players in the world. Additionally I admin two ONS demoservers, so I know the differences between the gamestyles.
Just make the other weapons so that the new players can get a frag with them and they have fun too without ruining the game and making their team lose.

Beginners also walk/run in straight lines, drive vehicles off cliffs, stand still in order to do a combo, try to build nodes with every weapon but the link gun etc... maybe all these things should be removed? As for changing the other weapons so beginners can get frags with them, well that'll never work. For starters, hitscan weapons cannot be changed apart from fire rate & damage, projectile weapons can only have increased splash damage higher fire rate & more damage thus creating spam, something many 'good' players complain about.

[fuegerstef]

Not all maps have them removed. So you are saying that if you're a 'good' player, it's beneath you to lay mines at a node? If so, that's ridiculous.

You do not read carefully. Never said that.
It is not "beneath" a good player. It is useless in an environment with good players.

All they do is distract new players even more from a game where they could get useful to their team.


Oh, and there are problems with that. It divides the community into two extremes instead of keeping it closer together. On both sides you have less players. Less players => less filled servers => Losing interest in the game.
Things that also help with this issue will be reduced movement possibilites and stronger weapons.

So many players learn after one or two matches that there is absolutely no possibility of usefulness in charging nodes with a Manta. But they won't learn that with mines (at least my experience) because there is the possibilty of them killing a player or getting the node down by 2%. It encourages them to do that, maybe also because they think that this is their only chance against these crazy dodge-jumping objects that constantly hit them with that purple laser beam...