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    #16
    Originally posted by Boksha
    I'd agree with you, but a clan of people with wildly different skills won't last either.

    That depends in my experience, it depends if the high level people are elitist twats who blame their teammates for losses, it depends whether the top guys actually allow the less good guys to play, etc. Ive been in some very mixed clans but they have worked because the top guys are happy to lose.

    I agree that such setups are few and far between because the top elitist guys never hang around for long and like to join up with a team of like minded people - such teams are often the least pleasent to play against and omg when they lose... :cry:

    I will repeat my old mantra; the best games are those with two mixed ability teams that are evenly matched.

    I reckon the best way to start a clan is on a new server at the release of a new game. Find a load of new players who are regulars and enjoy playing with each other, as you get to know each other the team forms naturally.

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      #17
      I did not mean everybody in the clan needs to be Fatal1ty. (how did that idea creep into your head anyway? What I said doesn't even REMOTELY sound like that)
      It's called hyperbole, and I was only using it to drive in my point that I would rather have a best friend than a gaming god. It didn't sound anything like what you said because it wasn't about anything you said.

      And a clan shouldn't be about clanwars? Then what's the difference between having a clan and just generally hanging around with each other?
      What's the difference then between having a clan and having a group of skilled fraggers?

      Sure on the surface a clan is basically a gathering of friends, but a clan is built on much more than just that. It requires commitment, trust, reliability, and cooperation to keep a clan alive and well. I assume the actual answer to yuor question would be that your average friends can pop on and say hi anytime, but a clan is based on and thrives due to much deeper social establishments and engagements.

      The question was how to found a clan that stays alive.
      "If you want a successful, long-lasting clan..."

      While friendship is definitly an essential part of keeping a gaming clan alive, being good mates alone won't be enough.
      I've been leading the same clan over 4 different games for 4 years now, all while basing it entirely on social virtues and having players of wildly different skill levels. If you want to convince somebody that friendship alone can't keep a clan alive, sorry, I'm the wrong one to talk to.

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        #18
        Originally posted by Boksha
        Having different styles is NOT the same thing as different skill levels.
        Ah right, I misunderstood when you said "wildly different skills won't last either", I didnt realise you meant SKILL LEVELS, I thought you meant how they play.
        I beleive AL777 thought the same as me...

        Just the way it was worded.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by AL777
          It's called hyperbole, and I was only using it to drive in my point that I would rather have a best friend than a gaming god. It didn't sound anything like what you said because it wasn't about anything you said.
          As far as I know, a hyperbole's pushing someone's point to extremes, which is already a questionable path in a discussion, because many valid arguments break apart when taken to extremes. My point wasn't that you need good players for a clan, but players of approximately the same skill level if you want an active clan (i.e. a clan that partakes in organised matches against other organised clans, not a group of friends that play at regular intervals)

          Originally posted by AL777
          What's the difference then between having a clan and having a group of skilled fraggers?

          Sure on the surface a clan is basically a gathering of friends, but a clan is built on much more than just that. It requires commitment, trust, reliability, and cooperation to keep a clan alive and well. I assume the actual answer to yuor question would be that your average friends can pop on and say hi anytime, but a clan is based on and thrives due to much deeper social establishments and engagements.
          Engagement in what? Cooperation to achieve what? Commitment, trust and reliability sound like things that would suit a regular friendship. You still haven't said anything a clan does that a normal tight group of friends doesn't. I play a lot of MOHAA and COD with my housemates, and when we do we even use a "clantag". That doesn't make us a clan, and certainly not an active UT2k4 clan.

          Originally posted by AL777
          "If you want a successful, long-lasting clan..."
          I've been leading the same clan over 4 different games for 4 years now, all while basing it entirely on social virtues and having players of wildly different skill levels. If you want to convince somebody that friendship alone can't keep a clan alive, sorry, I'm the wrong one to talk to.
          Sorry, but what you're talking about doesn't sound like a clan at all. It sounds like a group of friends that decided on a name to call themselves and talk to/play with each other at regular intervals.

          But I'm rambling. The question isn't even what the word "clan" means. That's trivial. Answer: the meaning can differ from person to person (and even from conversation to conversation. i.e. if we're talking about family disuputes in medieval times, the word "clan" takes a whole different meaning). The question is what you want to achieve. If your question is "how do I keep a 50+ players clan that doesn't partake in any regular clan activities alive" (i.e. the site's still there and most players regularly see each other), then by all means go on giving tips on keeping a group of people together. Me, I'm more interested in actually keeping a group of friends actually playing the game against other clans and practicing in an organised way so that the overall skill level improves.

          Originally posted by IRN_DOG
          Just the way it was worded.
          Ludwig Wittgenstein thought that all philosophical discussions up to his time failed because of vague usage of language. Disambiguate the language and all questions are answered. Of course, later on he realised that not only would there still be plenty of questions left even if people could communicate their thoughts perfectly, but language by itself will always remain vague by definition. Of course, I still could have worded what I said a lot better.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Boksha
            Ludwig Wittgenstein thought that all philosophical discussions up to his time failed because of vague usage of language. Disambiguate the language and all questions are answered. Of course, later on he realised that not only would there still be plenty of questions left even if people could communicate their thoughts perfectly, but language by itself will always remain vague by definition. Of course, I still could have worded what I said a lot better.
            2 Points:

            1) Ludwig Wittgenstein probably made his points quite clear and easy to understand, whereas 3 people including myself thought you meant something different.

            2) Ludwig Wittgenstein has never played UT or has anything to do with it. Not unless youve played the Ludwig Wittgenstein chat mutator

            Comment


              #21
              And the Boksha/AL777 quote/response wars have begun again...

              As far as I know, a hyperbole's pushing someone's point to extremes
              Figuratively.

              The question isn't even what the word "clan" means.
              Well, then just for giggles, the word "clan" means a family or families under a common head.

              Engagement in what? Cooperation to achieve what? Commitment, trust and reliability sound like things that would suit a regular friendship. You still haven't said anything a clan does that a normal tight group of friends doesn't.
              Normal and tight are almost complete opposites and are also the two essentials to understanding my stance on clans. Normal friends only go so far for you. Exceptionally close friends go that much further. It's the average shmo that makes a good friend. It's the devoted crony that makes a clan.

              And to answer your questions:
              -Engagement in: whatever we like. Last I checked there was no rule limiting clans to clan wars and secret candlelight rituals.
              -Cooperation to achieve: the continuation of the clan and of the close friendships. It is obviously a much more detailed system than that, but I'm not writing a novel.
              -And yes, commitment, trust, and reliability are nothing different from a typical friendship, yet as I already stated, a clan requires a much heavier dose of all three

              --------------------------------------------

              And in response to virtually everything I didn't quote seeing as my response to all of it is the same:

              Saying that clans must partake in clanwars in order to truly even be clans is a pitifully weak, opinionated, narrow, stereotypical, and superficial statement. "Clan" is an exceptionally generic word that obviously didn't even originate in gaming, so giving it a personalized definition so overly specific is stepping out on a limb from the branch of reality.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by IRN_DOG
                1) Ludwig Wittgenstein probably made his points quite clear and easy to understand, whereas 3 people including myself thought you meant something different.
                Actually after he figured out you couldn't solve all problems by setting the language in stone, his works became more and more jumbled.
                Anyway, I know he doesn't have much to do with UT. The reason I brought him up is because I wanted to make clear that problems caused by misunderstandings aren't really interesting because they're bound to happen. For example AL777 were talking past each other because we were really answering a different question (AL777: "how to make a group of players stick together in an organised way", me: "how to keep a group of players that all want to play competetively partaking in organised matches/leagues"), even though both questions can be worded exactly the same ("How to keep a clan alive") and both questions are equally valid in those wordings.
                Of course, even once it's clear what we're talking about, there can be plenty of differences of opinion.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Wotchoo talkin' 'bout Willis?

                  In that case wouldn't his works become messed up in translation from one language to another? This is english to english

                  Last time i checked, your english is pretty much impeccable (I'd take that as a compliment ).

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by AL777
                    The one piece of advice I'll give you is not to form clans based on skill. If you want a successful, long-lasting clan, find friends, not fraggers.

                    hit the nail on the head!!! the one and only advice you'll ever need in online gaming. if you surround your self with good and honest friends, you can pretty much achieve anything ya'll like.i've been with the same friends/clan since the mid 90's. we've played many different games, hosted few lan parties, and it's always been a blast. the point im trying to make is...with good friends it's always about FUN,win or lose. goodluck in your journey!!

                    Comment


                      #25
                      The most difficult issue is deciding what kind of clan you want to be. If you just want to be a "community" based clan, i.e. a close group of friends perhaps larger than most clans with people varying quite a lot in skill level then I would say it is easier, because you need less common grounds.

                      If you want to build a successful, long-lasting clan to play competitively then it is far more difficult. Friendship, trust, co-operation, like-minded thinking and so on are an integral part of any clan, but to be competitive you need skill as well. Having a competitive clan with differing skill levels can lead to disputes or petty dislikes about some players behind their backs for example (I don't want to play with them, they're not good enough/it's frustrating or annoying if we lose). I know I for one wouldn't want to be the best player in my team by miles, and I also wouldn't want to feel I was letting everyone down and being the worst. Additionally if you have a clan of people with pretty much equal skill then you will not stay together for long if you can't get along with each other (player 'A' leaves clan 'A' who were rather successful but instead joins clan 'B' who he gets along with better). I have experienced all of the above at some point, even if I was only thinking it.

                      Leadership is another issue as well. I for one don't like having a defined clan 'hierarchy', in that one person does all the work and everyone else just plays. As you get to know and trust each other better, and you know you can be sure, then share the responsibility. Knowing you have a solid core of people playing with you can really lighten the load when it comes to clan responsibilities. Though one person will often do more work than everyone else (certainly hugglz for us) try to get other people interested too. Maybe it could help you think beyond the game, and help you relax too. Some people have said that it's not as fun being in a skilled clan. I definitely beg to disagree, I actually say it's more fun, because we all have a laugh with each other and win a decent number of matches to boot. Taking it too seriously will just get you stressed and that's not what gaming is about. Please note that I should really follow the advice in the preceding sentence more carefully.

                      To have the most success you should have a clan of people at a similar skill level that you think you may get to like or are beginning to like. Get on teamspeak or ventrilo with them, talk with each other, play more regularly and get used to each other, both your ingame styles and as people. Luckily in my current clan, divine, we are all of pretty much equal skill (and even though some people may be better or worse than others, we don't make an issue out of it, and treat each other as equals). The most important thing though is that we get on incredibly well together as friends and I will probably stay in touch with them long after UT2004, and maybe UT2007 until life dictates I leave the online scene ;P Hey, I didn't even fit in that well at first, but I just left myself some time to let the lube moisten my asscrack and now I'm as gay as the rest of them.

                      To finish I would like to enlighten you with one of TG|DeadHead's immortal quotes, "A clan that sleeps together, stays together." :up:

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Harkz0r
                        "A clan that sleeps together, stays together." :up:
                        That sounds really gay :bulb:

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