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    Originally posted by AL777
    You can make any argument you want about why it's hard to see players, but the simple fact of the matter is:

    They can be seen. Always.
    The simple fact of the matter is you missed the point.
    Stealth as you describe it (making use of the environment to conceal yourself) exists in regular UT in only a select few maps and plays a fairly minor role. The ability to spot players is, from my experience, more or less the same between people and at any rate is not something that can be trained or improved on (besides completely messing up your graphics settings but IMO that's not a skill but a solution quite similar to brightskins... except that it applies only to yourself; kind of like clientside brightskins)
    As a result, not having properly visible skins does not add any extra dimension or skill to the game while still making the game a lot more random, more hardware/settings dependant, less enjoyable to play and less suitable for competetive play.

    Anyway, the bottomline is that if you don't want to be stuck with bright green blobs bouncing around like in UT2k4, it'd be very much in your advantage if Epic makes sure the skins out of the box are properly visible from the start.

    Comment


      I'm fine with the skins right now. In fact, a mutator i got forced the skins from UT2003 to look just like they were in UT2003. (For some people = Invisible.) I'm fine with my "darkskins", and i don't mind if some want brighter skins clientside. Same with forcing, i don't mind what settings they have, as long as i can still have mine. But if i'm forced to watch glowy brightskin a la UTcomp all day long, i'll start detonating stuff. That includes children and kittens.

      Nice change with a rant, gotta do this more often. :bulb:

      Comment


        Originally posted by AgentZero
        Ermm no. Stealth and hiding is not a skill required for this type of game (and should not be).
        Thankfully, you are not calling the shots. If Epic didn't want people hiding, they'd release the game with brightskins.

        Originally posted by AgentZero
        Hiding in a corner, taking pot shots, IS MORE COWARDLY
        You must be confusing common sense with lack of courage. Courage has nothing to do with playing a video game. What, you dare turn on some silly option? Go, you!

        Comment


          Well I dunno what to say.. It was just never really a problem for me.
          Of course matrix can stand still and hide in a dark corner, but it happens so rarely that I wouldn't by far call it a "problem". Chances are I saw him run in there, I obviously see where the shots are coming from, and if he's standing still it's not much of a problem to pick him off.

          Of course I have an easier time seeing players with brightskins, but I think they look so ugly that it takes away from the feeling of awesome looking characters running around blasting eachother. I'm sure a lot of people would prefer a character looking like the hitbox in a solid red and in nolit maps, but for me personally that's not a cool looking game any more. I'm not a competitive player and graphics do play a certain part in complimenting the gameplay.

          I'm all for more visible characters if they really are a problem, but I just don't want ut2k7 to have awesome modelled warriors with this new amazing parallax mapping technology, only with a 50% solid red overlay as default.

          The UC2 characters were decent enough, they had glowy bits and stripes on their armor, and most metal had a shiny reflective map. I can't remember any of their maps having dark bits either.

          I'm not gonna say the game is about stealth, but you have to admit there is a certain element of it in there. I've never heard anyone complaining over the tricks you can do to avoid setting off the sound cues in rankin. Isn't that kind of a stealth?
          But I agree, it shouldn't be about standing still in shadows and picking off passers by. But when was the last time you saw someone getting even a killing spree by doing it?

          Comment


            As I said, the problem isn't people standing still and being invisble, it's just that with the regular skins people pretty much just shoot randomly in maps like Grendelkeep and random is not really an option for competition.
            I'm all against a repeat of what happened in UT2k3 and UT2k4 (i.e. neon skins default for competition) which is why I REALLY hope Epic gets their stuff together when it comes to visibility. Because if they don't, I'm pretty sure there will be neon skins.

            Originally posted by Xyx
            Thankfully, you are not calling the shots. If Epic didn't want people hiding, they'd release the game with brightskins.
            They did, in fact, release a brightskins pack for UT2k3which is on by default in UT2k4. They're just not very consistent, so the skins that are new in UT2k4 are just as bad (if not worse) than the original UT2k3 skins.

            Comment


              Boksha, I think AL777 is referring to the "dayglow" version of the brightskins, not the Epic version.

              Of course, I can certainly understand the need for brightskins in competitions, UT2004 was not made for competitive gameplay.

              Anyhow, if any of you UTers can't see Matrix in Compressed or Grendelkeep. you truly are blind. I do not have the best vision, I never played video games until about 6 years ago, I never have had good hand-to-eye coordination, I am 44 years old, and I can see Matrix in every map I played.

              Btw, here is a quick and dirty vid I made to show my point. Even though Matrix goes black and does blend a bit with the map, you can it just fine whether it is moving or standing still.

              http://www.acliffhanger.com/ut2004/matrixtest.avi
              (you will need the XviD codec to play this, get it here...http://www.xvidmovies.com/codec/)

              Comment


                To clarify, I never said this game was about stealth. I did say, however, that an extent of it does indeed exist within the game, and brightskins completely destroys that extent... which is a cheap way to solve a problem that doesn't even exist.

                I have 80-90 vision and am near-sighted. I never wear glasses while playing, I have my brightness set to 80, and I can always see every skin all the time. This includes matrix in the corners of compressed. This means that the skins are always bright enough to see. Hence - there is no logical problem.

                Out of such, if the skins are always visible and always bright, brightskins is completely unnecessary, and the only effect it has is making enemy detection stupidly, stupidly easy... oh, and making the characters look like christmas lights.

                And besides... if you have so much trouble seeing dark skins that blend with their enviroments, can't you just increase brightness and contrast?

                Comment


                  Originally posted by AgentZero
                  Ermm no. Stealth and hiding is not a skill required for this type of game (and should not be). Go play Splinter Cell or something, that's where you're "skill" ideas belong (Splinter Cell owns, but that doesn't mean UT should be like that). Hiding in a corner, taking pot shots, IS MORE COWARDLY than using brightskins (which btw isn't cowardly at all). It's about how fast you react and how good you can frag. There is better reaction when you see something very vivid for you to shoot. It also equalizes the playing field.

                  You obviously have no idea what you're saying, if brightskins takes from those of greater skill, and gives it to the lesser skilled....then why was brightskins made for competition? Why do 99% of greater skilled players agree with brightskins? And why is it that 99% of greater skilled players would disagree with your post?

                  "HAY GUYZ LETS TURN THIS GAME INTO 'OMG WHO CAN HIDE AND DETECT ENEMIES THE BEST???'"...............

                  Your idea of UT skill is totally flawed.
                  Wait, should he be going to play SplinterCell instead of stock-settings UT2004? Why don't you go play Arkanoid or Brick-Out instead of neon-glow-UT2k4? Apparently people have different ideas of UT skill, and some require Neon overlays added by a mutator to play (making the shock-rifle stupidly effective at extreme range too).
                  I am not going to say I don't get frustrated by dudes running around in the Matrix skin pwning me before I can see them, but creating a mutator to remove that skin and abbaddon is much more appropriate than neon brightskins. The point is that if there is a problem with the stock visiblity, which I don't think there is (the matrix player in my example would just get owned by another matrix player and I would avoid both of them untill they stood against a bright wall except the matrix player in my example was using brightskins and I wasn't so he was shooting me from 200km with a shock-rifle :bored: ), it could have been solved some other way than neon-overlays, but people chose neon-overlays because of what AL77 said:
                  If you promote brightskins, you may not see yourself to be doing this, but you apparently can't see very well in the first place. Your poor detection of players amongst the scenery and your inability to use the environment to your own visually-tactical advantage is entirely your own fault because both of these things are more than possible. By promoting brightskins you are trying to have the game cover your weakness for you. What's worse, you are eliminating the advantages to those who are skillful in using cover, the lighting, and the enviroment to seclude themselves and move about stealthily, as well as those who are good at spotting them. Stealth is a skill. Enemy detection is a skill. Brightskins remove both skills from the game, making it easier for those who don't possess them. I can't view this as anything aside from an attempt to take from those of greater skill and give to those of lesser skill... which in imo is a cowardly and self-centered way to improve your own game at the costs of others.
                  I run UTComp on our DM/TDM server, but I don't use brightskins. I force Gorge, but only because brightskins have pushed the hitscan balance so far that I need some help too. I ain't happy about it. :down::sour:

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Xyx
                    Thankfully, you are not calling the shots. If Epic didn't want people hiding, they'd release the game with brightskins.
                    And Jeff Morris said to me on the Games Convention in Leipzig that they really try hard to improve on the visibility of the skins after I told him that the skins in the UT2007 presentation were almost as bright as UTComps (with lighting that affects the players though, of course).

                    So in his statement I read that they are aware of the fact that the skins in UT2k3/4 are hard to spot and that this needs to be better (IMPROVEMENT) for the next version.

                    But you people always only see the extreme ends of something: It is eiteher hard to spot and stealth or glowskins.

                    Did anybody of you ever consider that there is something in the middle of these two options???

                    Reading your posts: probably not.

                    Comment


                      Anyone play other games? Nobody else needs to have Brightskins, and I think it's silly to demand Epic put them in. I agree with Fuegerstef here that we need something in between Brightskins and faded, rusty skins that blend in too much with the scenery.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by fuegerstef
                        And Jeff Morris said to me on the Games Convention in Leipzig that they really try hard to improve on the visibility of the skins after I told him that the skins in the UT2007 presentation were almost as bright as UTComps (with lighting that affects the players though, of course).

                        So in his statement I read that they are aware of the fact that the skins in UT2k3/4 are hard to spot and that this needs to be better (IMPROVEMENT) for the next version.

                        But you people always only see the extreme ends of something: It is eiteher hard to spot and stealth or glowskins.

                        Did anybody of you ever consider that there is something in the middle of these two options???

                        Reading your posts: probably not.
                        no shades of grey

                        i deal with absolutes
                        :up:

                        Comment


                          Just to clarify: I don't WANT neon-glowskins in UT2k7... What I do want, is clearly visible players so there is no need to release a mutator that enhances visibility... I would say most of the people that play with brightskins (including Lotus), would agree with this.

                          Per Fueg's post: Epic has acknowledged that there ARE VISIBILITY ISSUES with the skins in stock UT2k4, and they are working to make sure that these are fixed for UT2k7...
                          ^^^ That is ALL I need to hear. As long as they recognize as there is a problem, and they are actively fixing it, the end result is headed in the right direction :up:

                          Comment


                            Yes but have you seen the demo.:bulb:

                            Comment


                              I will post my simple illustration here also.. It shows the differences between the skins the way they were in UT (top) 2k7 demo shots (mid) and 2k4 (bottom).. the way UT did it was fine and obviously the way to go, it is middle ground but also perfectly visible in mid range combat.. You will always always lose clarity with distance but that varies from map to map and is more indicative of clutter in the environments than anything. IMO what competitive players want shouldn't be "bright skins" exclusively but non-cluttered maps which is basically what UT provided as well. As the technology progresses and adds more detail, are we going to turn players into glowsticks just to keep the balance of visibility, or will the mappers finally smarten up and rethink their approach to adding "detail" to their environments? One more thing, health packs shouldn't be bright blue and protruding from the ground/spinning, as that color/movement is distracting and confusing from a distance. Smart design, people.. Smart design. That's the answer.

                              Comment


                                Sweet Bersy... In the map: DM-ForumBackGround, those will be perfect!


                                Comment

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