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    I still think still standing screens are irrelevant, as you'd see the player right away when he's jumping around and shooting.

    Comment


      well not sure where you get pixelated from but hey people standing still in this game happens all the time infact want to be left alone quit moving...Now if this was not a issue why is UT comp such a must on ladders??? and do not give me the reason the other features BS's were first and formost in both TTM and Utcomp.. the point is gentlemen that a person standing there can pop you in the head with a lg and you have no clue he is there ..But i will agree with Placebo i too think that scaling has alot to do with it ...all i am saying in regards to Ut2007 is i pray they make the game so you can see the players even in DM without a outside Mutator..if not it is going to be a sad day...Now so far you look at the pics of 2k7 and they have washed out colors and i will tell you right now the color on the red guy will not cut it with the busy backrounds of the map we are seeing..and malcom with the vehicles is the same color they are ....so keep your fingers crossed and hope all of this is just speculation...

      Comment


        Well if I was playing, and glanced to the side to see if an opponent was there, and if I saw what I took a screenshot of, then I wouldn't notice them. I wouldn't face that direction long enough to see them moving around, if I just glanced to my side.

        Comment


          Xyx to the rescue! I have identified the problems for you:
          1. Some skins offer better concealment than others.
          2. Some weapons are too effective at long range.
          3. Some players fail to grasp the concept of stealth.
          If any one of these were to be solved, the issue would cease to exist.

          Comment


            The guys carrying shock rifles in UT2007 are probably going to be easy to see at any distance.

            Comment


              OMFG, you really think the shock is that big?

              it was scaled up so we could see it

              Comment


                Originally posted by windigo
                OMFG, you really think the shock is that big?

                it was scaled up so we could see it
                Wouldnt suprise me Epic is kinda sloppy in that department...

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Fuzzlebunny
                  I still think still standing screens are irrelevant, as you'd see the player right away when he's jumping around and shooting.
                  I've seen this point mentioned in absolutely every discussion about the player brightness, and it's probably one of the most plausible yet completely irrelevant points. (I guess because it's so plausible it's also very persistent)
                  You're forgetting some things:
                  1. He's not the only person jumping and shooting. YOU are jumping and shooting. As a result, the whole screen also moves (including the background behind the enemy) and many things like flying rockets and shockbeams distract from the enemy rather than make him more visible. This isn't CoD where you can see a camouflaged enemy in a dark corner because you're sitting so still the entire screen looks like a photograph and you can easily pick off your enemy just because his movement sticks out.
                  2. In order to hit an enemy you need to be able to react quickly to his movements. The problem with bad visibility isn't that people hide and remain unseen: it's that you can never react as quickly to a badly visible enemy as you can to a visible enemy. So even if he gives away his general position by moving and firing, that doesn't make it any easier to hit him because just knowing there's someone out there isn't enough: you need his EXACT position at every moment to be able to hit accurately.
                  This is also why the (partial!) Invisibility combo is so powerful. Not because it makes you undetectable, but because it makes you incredibly hard to hit and delays recognition.
                  3. The fact that the enemy is constantly moving also means his visibility changes quickly. If he's in front of a piece of the wall that's exactly his colour and behind another piece of wall a fraction of a second later and the two alternate quickly, you get incomplete information on the enemy's position, which confuses your brain into thinking he moves in short bursts. (have a look at an example: http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_feet_lin/index.html)

                  At the end of the day, I have less trouble hitting someone with a stealthy skin if he hides in a corner trying not to attract attention than I would have if he moves quickly and spams overly bright shockrifle rounds.

                  In the shot Magwa posted, you'll notice the enemy eventually, but probably a second later than what would make sense.
                  Now I agree that that shot is a bit out of place because the enemy is also standing behind a horrendously overscaled health pickup, but there are plenty of maps and skins where visibility is a very real problem that effectively limits players to just spamming shots in each other's general direction, even in close range dogfights. (I find brightskins benefit the splash weapons as much as the hitscan weapons on small maps; obviously they benefit hitscan more at long range because splash weapons are useless at that range anyway)

                  Anyway, if you can take screenshots of enemies that should be visible but aren't, you can be sure it'll be worse in-game. I mean with screenshots, the enemy may not be moving but you have all the time in the world to look for him. In-game, you need to react to the enemy in a split second so even if he was in fact visible in a screenshot you could still be dead in-game. If he's not visible at all in a screenshot(despite being easily in LOS), there's something wrong with the game IMO.

                  Originally posted by windigo
                  OMFG, you really think the shock is that big?

                  it was scaled up so we could see it
                  Erm... right. Don't you think that's very far-fetched? (much, much more far fetched than the idea that what we see in screenshots is actually what the game looked like at the moment the screenshot was taken)
                  I mean, you should remember how big the weapons were in UT2k3. Epic sometimes loses track of scale, BADLY.
                  I have faith they already fixed the scale though.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by [EH]Xenocide
                    I think these are better, the player isn't as small and far away. (and isn't behind a health pack)



                    Somewhere behind that giant noobHUD of yours?

                    Comment


                      Boksha nailed it.

                      I think personally that UT2007 should have the option to force brightskins clientside anywhere. That way people that find it usefull can keep it on. And otherones don't need to use it, maybe it could come in the form of a slider that controls player brightness/contrast/saturation. A fairly simple but ideal solution IMO.

                      I also think people underestimate the usefullness of the brightnessbar, in UT2003 my screen was fairly bright, maybe a little bit washed out even but I could pick out 99% of the players problemlessly. Now my screen is generally darker and more contrasty, nicer visuals but "darkskin" players definatly stand out less.
                      The brighter standard skins Epic included however are still very visible.

                      @Xeno, is it an invisible Matrixesque skin near the big girder on the left? I see a silhouette there.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Boksha
                        I've seen this point mentioned in absolutely every discussion about the player brightness, and it's probably one of the most plausible yet completely irrelevant points. (I guess because it's so plausible it's also very persistent)
                        You're forgetting some things:
                        1. He's not the only person jumping and shooting. YOU are jumping and shooting. As a result, the whole screen also moves (including the background behind the enemy) and many things like flying rockets and shockbeams distract from the enemy rather than make him more visible. This isn't CoD where you can see a camouflaged enemy in a dark corner because you're sitting so still the entire screen looks like a photograph and you can easily pick off your enemy just because his movement sticks out.
                        2. In order to hit an enemy you need to be able to react quickly to his movements. The problem with bad visibility isn't that people hide and remain unseen: it's that you can never react as quickly to a badly visible enemy as you can to a visible enemy. So even if he gives away his general position by moving and firing, that doesn't make it any easier to hit him because just knowing there's someone out there isn't enough: you need his EXACT position at every moment to be able to hit accurately.
                        This is also why the (partial!) Invisibility combo is so powerful. Not because it makes you undetectable, but because it makes you incredibly hard to hit and delays recognition.
                        3. The fact that the enemy is constantly moving also means his visibility changes quickly. If he's in front of a piece of the wall that's exactly his colour and behind another piece of wall a fraction of a second later and the two alternate quickly, you get incomplete information on the enemy's position, which confuses your brain into thinking he moves in short bursts. (have a look at an example: http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_feet_lin/index.html)

                        At the end of the day, I have less trouble hitting someone with a stealthy skin if he hides in a corner trying not to attract attention than I would have if he moves quickly and spams overly bright shockrifle rounds.

                        In the shot Magwa posted, you'll notice the enemy eventually, but probably a second later than what would make sense.
                        Now I agree that that shot is a bit out of place because the enemy is also standing behind a horrendously overscaled health pickup, but there are plenty of maps and skins where visibility is a very real problem that effectively limits players to just spamming shots in each other's general direction, even in close range dogfights. (I find brightskins benefit the splash weapons as much as the hitscan weapons on small maps; obviously they benefit hitscan more at long range because splash weapons are useless at that range anyway)

                        Anyway, if you can take screenshots of enemies that should be visible but aren't, you can be sure it'll be worse in-game. I mean with screenshots, the enemy may not be moving but you have all the time in the world to look for him. In-game, you need to react to the enemy in a split second so even if he was in fact visible in a screenshot you could still be dead in-game. If he's not visible at all in a screenshot(despite being easily in LOS), there's something wrong with the game IMO.
                        you got it :up:

                        Comment


                          Agin i have to say Boksha has said in a way everyone can understand what i was trying to say,sadly i lack the skills...anyway lets hope for a much better game next time around..

                          Comment


                            You can make any argument you want about why it's hard to see players, but the simple fact of the matter is:

                            They can be seen. Always.

                            The real grudge I have against brightskin purists is that they want the game handed to them and the honorable skills of stealth and sight removed from the game. If you promote brightskins, you may not see yourself to be doing this, but you apparently can't see very well in the first place. Your poor detection of players amongst the scenery and your inability to use the environment to your own visually-tactical advantage is entirely your own fault because both of these things are more than possible. By promoting brightskins you are trying to have the game cover your weakness for you. What's worse, you are eliminating the advantages to those who are skillful in using cover, the lighting, and the enviroment to seclude themselves and move about stealthily, as well as those who are good at spotting them. Stealth is a skill. Enemy detection is a skill. Brightskins remove both skills from the game, making it easier for those who don't possess them. I can't view this as anything aside from an attempt to take from those of greater skill and give to those of lesser skill... which in imo is a cowardly and self-centered way to improve your own game at the costs of others. No offense intended to anybody but that is technically what promoting brightskins is doing.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by AL777
                              You can make any argument you want about why it's hard to see players, but the simple fact of the matter is:

                              They can be seen. Always.

                              The real grudge I have against brightskin purists is that they want the game handed to them and the honorable skills of stealth and sight removed from the game. If you promote brightskins, you may not see yourself to be doing this, but you apparently can't see very well in the first place. Your poor detection of players amongst the scenery and your inability to use the environment to your own visually-tactical advantage is entirely your own fault because both of these things are more than possible. By promoting brightskins you are trying to have the game cover your weakness for you. What's worse, you are eliminating the advantages to those who are skillful in using cover, the lighting, and the enviroment to seclude themselves and move about stealthily, as well as those who are good at spotting them. Stealth is a skill. Enemy detection is a skill. Brightskins remove both skills from the game, making it easier for those who don't possess them. I can't view this as anything aside from an attempt to take from those of greater skill and give to those of lesser skill... which in imo is a cowardly and self-centered way to improve your own game at the costs of others. No offense intended to anybody but that is technically what promoting brightskins is doing.
                              Ermm no. Stealth and hiding is not a skill required for this type of game (and should not be). Go play Splinter Cell or something, that's where you're "skill" ideas belong (Splinter Cell owns, but that doesn't mean UT should be like that). Hiding in a corner, taking pot shots, IS MORE COWARDLY than using brightskins (which btw isn't cowardly at all). It's about how fast you react and how good you can frag. There is better reaction when you see something very vivid for you to shoot. It also equalizes the playing field.

                              You obviously have no idea what you're saying, if brightskins takes from those of greater skill, and gives it to the lesser skilled....then why was brightskins made for competition? Why do 99% of greater skilled players agree with brightskins? And why is it that 99% of greater skilled players would disagree with your post?

                              "HAY GUYZ LETS TURN THIS GAME INTO 'OMG WHO CAN HIDE AND DETECT ENEMIES THE BEST???'"...............

                              Your idea of UT skill is totally flawed.

                              Comment


                                *Sigh...

                                AL777: If you never have a problem seeing a stock Matrix in the corner of Grendelkeep or the ramp on Compressed... GREAT. You are in the minority of people with super-human vision.
                                For the sad rest of us who play UT with a cane and a guide dog, there are times when we just can't see THAT skin at all, or other models very well. Not only is this inconsistent, but it also isn't the game I signed up for.

                                Addressing the issue of brightskins:

                                Unreal Tournament is NOT THIEF.

                                This game is not about hiding in the shadows, sneaking up on your enemy, or blending into the background... There are like 23413345652 other FPS's out there that do that, and more power to them.

                                UT has always been about fast and furious, in your face combat. Visibility was never a problem in the UT99 stock maps, and most of the fans of the series (myself included) carried that expectation over to UT2k*...

                                Having visible opponents has nothing to do with supporting your own weakness; rather, it is so all players can focus on pure fragging skill rather then play squint & guess if that is an enemy.

                                Edit: LOL Zero beating me to the punch....

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