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Not sure about this fuss about DM and CTF being worse in UT2004.

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    Not sure about this fuss about DM and CTF being worse in UT2004.

    Please enlighten me. I have seen so many posts/threads saying how DM and CTF should not be neglected in UT2007, and that classic UT CTF and DM still rocks over UT2004.

    Why is this said? I'm not a hardcore player; but I find it hard to believe that nuances of damage can change the experience in its entirety. Is it the (perceived?) inferior quality of UT2004 DM maps?

    Do pardon my ignorance, btw.

    #2
    One of the problems people have with UT2k4 DM is that it just takes too **** long to kill someone. The result is that walking around with little health is both more frustrating (in UT you're usually dead with one blow anyway, so having little health isn't a big deal unless someone miniguns you) and more frequent (since you usually don't die with a single blow in UT2k4, you'll be plain damaged more often) and similarly killstealing (not necessarily on purpose) is more frequent as well. What's more, weaker weapons make powerups much more important (in UT2k4, the double damage allows you to kill enemies MUCH quicker, in UT the triple damage just allowed you to kill armoured enemies much quicker and aim a bit more carelessly against unarmoured opponents; in UT, the 100a allows you to survive maybe one or two more fights, in UT2k4 the 100a allows you live pretty much indefinitly if you play carefully and time it when it respawns)
    All in all the game is just slower. Not in movement, but in general game pace.

    In CTF, the slower killing and faster player movement pretty much ruined the balance between attack and defense. Because it was too easy for a flagcarrier to just run away from his pursuers (as opposed to killing them or relying on his teammates to kill them) the maps had to become longer to allow defenders to catch and actually kill FCs. (if this isn't done, the usual state of the game would be for both teams to have their enemy's flag in-base, as opposed to their own) The longer maps and longer chases after the FC however made the game much slower, with less flagcaps per minute on average and as such many teams concentrated more on their defense than on their attack (also because with the fast movement of the FC it becomes very hard AND less necessary to cover him) which furthered how slow the game was.

    And I wouldn't call the changes from UT to UT2k4 nuance changes. I'd say the average time to kill someone from the moment you see him has easily doubled. This is particulary true in CTF where FCs can use the shieldgun to block attacks, and all other players can translocate away from your shots more easily.
    Note that the extra time it takes to kill someone is mostly noticable in the lower regions of play, where people have trouble predicting dodgejumps and dodgejumps are also more frequent. (in the higher skill regions of play, dodgejumps are easily predicted and probably for that reason, less frequent; and since most weapons can still kill an unarmoured opponent in one blow, the fights at a higher level of play also don't take that much longer than in UT)

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Boksha
      One of the problems people have with UT2k4 DM is that it just takes too **** long to kill someone. The result is that walking around with little health is both more frustrating (in UT you're usually dead with one blow anyway, so having little health isn't a big deal unless someone miniguns you) and more frequent (since you usually don't die with a single blow in UT2k4, you'll be plain damaged more often) and similarly killstealing (not necessarily on purpose) is more frequent as well. What's more, weaker weapons make powerups much more important (in UT2k4, the double damage allows you to kill enemies MUCH quicker, in UT the triple damage just allowed you to kill armoured enemies much quicker and aim a bit more carelessly against unarmoured opponents; in UT, the 100a allows you to survive maybe one or two more fights, in UT2k4 the 100a allows you live pretty much indefinitly if you play carefully and time it when it respawns)
      All in all the game is just slower. Not in movement, but in general game pace.

      In CTF, the slower killing and faster player movement pretty much ruined the balance between attack and defense. Because it was too easy for a flagcarrier to just run away from his pursuers (as opposed to killing them or relying on his teammates to kill them) the maps had to become longer to allow defenders to catch and actually kill FCs. (if this isn't done, the usual state of the game would be for both teams to have their enemy's flag in-base, as opposed to their own) The longer maps and longer chases after the FC however made the game much slower, with less flagcaps per minute on average and as such many teams concentrated more on their defense than on their attack (also because with the fast movement of the FC it becomes very hard AND less necessary to cover him) which furthered how slow the game was.

      And I wouldn't call the changes from UT to UT2k4 nuance changes. I'd say the average time to kill someone from the moment you see him has easily doubled. This is particulary true in CTF where FCs can use the shieldgun to block attacks, and all other players can translocate away from your shots more easily.
      I just reinstalled UT last night & played a few games and Boksha once again has hit on the nail. 2 shots w/flak to kill someone with a shield belt is pretty fun. It's a lot more frustrating in UT2k4 to try and get frags in TDM and 1v1 which is why their popularity flagged a fair amount over time.

      Comment


        #4
        IMO they made it more balanced. People who complain are just noobs

        for CTF the xlocator is faster, actually giving defense an edge.

        and for DM this makes games closer, making them more exciting.:up:

        Comment


          #5
          I think that DM/TDM is better in 2K4, but I am sure I am in the minority. The only gametype I feel UT99 does better is iCTF. I like iCTF in 2K* but the x-loc and dodge jumps do make it a very different experience for better or worse.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by da ghost
            IMO they made it more balanced. People who complain are just noobs

            for CTF the xlocator is faster, actually giving defense an edge.

            and for DM this makes games closer, making them more exciting.:up:
            Balanced is a state of perception, one that most gamers don't share with you as evidenced by low online attendance.

            I don't have an argument with the UT2004 trans, although it being nerfed (recharge) pretty much killed the gametype as we knew it in UT99.

            You play DM with an xloc?

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by nightstormer
              You play DM with an xloc?
              I gotta say 2K3 DM should always be played with the xloc!! Telefrag 4TW!!

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by da ghost
                IMO they made it more balanced. People who complain are just noobs
                I'd hardly call Boksha a noob.

                I do agree with him that the merciless nature of UT isn't quite in UT2k4. UT2k4 is also more arcade-like, models appear smaller, and maps have to be freakin huge since the 2k movement system practically requires players to fly across maps. So you get combat that's basically far removed from the visceral style of the original UT.

                One more thing, the UT Amp actually did four times as much damage. The Quad Damage in Q3A actually did three times as much damage. We often had a few jokes at the expense of the Quad for that.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Boksha
                  One of the problems people have with UT2k4 DM is that it just takes too **** long to kill someone. The result is that walking around with little health is both more frustrating (in UT you're usually dead with one blow anyway, so having little health isn't a big deal unless someone miniguns you) and more frequent (since you usually don't die with a single blow in UT2k4, you'll be plain damaged more often) and similarly killstealing (not necessarily on purpose) is more frequent as well. What's more, weaker weapons make powerups much more important...
                  Hence the reason for my Hardcore mutator... IMHO movement, powerups and weapon damage have a major effect on the funlevel of a game. I think the reason so many UT04 maps suck is not because of bad level design but because of gameplay design. Bad gameplay + descent map = not so much fun where as good gameplay + descent map = people having a great time and experiencing nastolgia in the future. As a matter of fact good gameplay plus a simple box shaped room with a few pillers and no textures could be fun.

                  One other thing that effects the fun level is the dieing sequence. In my mutator when you kill someone they burst into a bunch bloody chunks. I've noticed its funner killing people with this effect then it was with the rag dolls.


                  [EDIT]

                  Originally posted by Echohawk
                  I just reinstalled UT last night & played a few games and Boksha once again has hit on the nail. 2 shots w/flak to kill someone with a shield belt is pretty fun. It's a lot more frustrating in UT2k4 to try and get frags in TDM and 1v1 which is why their popularity flagged a fair amount over time.
                  Again the reson for my Hardcore Mutator (http://www.geocities.com/hcmutator/). I gotta advertise this think like crazy. But what I realy want is to get people involved in the design process by joining the email list, testing the mut, and giving advise.

                  [/EDIT

                  RD

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by da ghost
                    for CTF the xlocator is faster, actually giving defense an edge.
                    The sped up translocator might have given the defense an edge, however because players on foot (i.e. flag carriers) also move faster this is pretty much evened out. Then the translocator has a limited amount of charges (limits the amount of corners a chasing defender can round, meaning a defendable map needs to be as straight as possible) and the weaker weapons AND easier dodging of said weapons and the shieldgun to top it all off, and you quickly have a CTF that's more about supersonic flagcarriers that attack every time the 100a spawns, than about covering and solid teamwork. (and I didn't even mention adrenaline in all of this, since it's turned off for competetive CTF play)

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Boksha
                      ...in UT the triple damage...
                      Triple damage?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        In my opinion the games just have very different atmospheres, they are equally good in their own ways. (just keeping it simple)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          well put Boksha, but i feel like fast kills are more rewarding in UT2k4 because of weak weapons you need to rely on weapon switching and not weapon whoring. being accurate with every shot and killing a guy in 2-3 moves feels good to me because i had to actually think of what weapon to use and when.

                          but most average players cant do that well so they like UT better where its easier to kill with 6 rockets or 1 flak shot or a high speed sniper rifle.

                          ofcourse im talking about DM...i dont play CTF.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I don't get more satisfaction from kills in UT2k4 than I do in UT, because even though it's harder for you to damage your opponent, it's also harder for your opponent to damage you.
                            I do get a LOT more satisfaction from several kills in a row in UT than I do from one kill in UT2k4, and in DM you COULD actually kill 3 people in UT in the time you can now kill 1 person in UT2k4. The average amount of kills per minute wasn't 3 times higher of course (more like 1.5x higher) but still UT felt like it had more... rush behind it. UT2k4 just feels very dry. The weapon sounds also play an important role in that though.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by garcia_y_vega
                              I gotta say 2K3 DM should always be played with the xloc!! Telefrag 4TW!!
                              lol, I suppose to each his own. xloc ruins the mapflow in DM most of the time IMO, and makes certain areas accessible that otherwise you'd have to use special jumps, use certain paths, etc. to get to. But it is awful fun to telefrag someone running toward your base while you are zooming toward theirs in a CTF match!

                              Comment

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