The Great Debate

[legacy-DoctorB]

I look at it this way. If you are going to play in a structured setting (league/tournament) then that setting is going to have rules you are expected to follow. If you can't do that then you can't expect to play or if you feel that enough people feel the same way you do then you all get together and lobby to change the rules.

If you are going to play where the only rule is no aimbotting then if the game allows a tactic it is OK — till he/she that runs the place changes the rules.

Rule changes? Happens all the time in all organizations in the real world. Live with it — or change the rules.

[Discord]

Originally posted by Psycho Dad
I apologize for nothing I have said.

You ate some sort of mushroom before you posted that, didn't you?

I'm not asking you to apologize, you haven't offended me, and nope... that was all Negra Modelo.

Surely you can see that at the same time that you're telling him he has no right to tell others how to play, you're in fact telling him how to play (ie, acceptingly).

You're also complaining on these forums about people complaining on these forums. :haha:

And if you concede that there are lame things ingame and it's all situational, well... then surely Xaero's vision of ingame sportsmanship is no less valid than anybody else's.


And for the rest of the no- lame crowd, try this on for size:

Cracking on people ingame and claiming that whatever they just did was lame is in fact an underhanded tactic in its own right. EG, if I can start arguing about that and get 1/2 of your team to play along, well that's just some easy chatfrags and an undefended base for my teammates to exploit now isn't it? And if I can get you rattled you may be more prone to make mistakes...

There. By your own definition of ingame rectitude you've nothing left to complain about.

[legacy-Psycho Dad]

My last post to you was tounge-in-cheek, but may have come out sounding more serious than I had intended. It was very late (or rather very early :bulb: ) and I probably should have made better use of smilies to indicate levity. I'm rather enjoying this thread, so no harm, no foul. :up:

If I've come across as trying to tell anyone how to play then it's probably due to the redundancy that often occurs in a prolonged debate. When the same opinions are expressed repeatedly in re-worded forms, then replies also tend to get re-worded. Semantics come into play and the focus of the debate can drift or broaden. I think that's likely what is happening here.

I don't think I have complained about anything so far except for the one post I made about in-game behavior. That was mostly a rant for my own benefit and wasn't targeted at anyone in particular. Some may consider bad behavior in a game to be a cheap tactic, but I don't think the social aspects of the game were meant to be within the scope of the initial debate.

I have not conceded that there are lame or cheap tactics in the game. I concede that there are tactics that I don't enjoy having to deal with, but I've also tried to make it clear that I consider these tactics (i.e. sniping and camping) to be legitimate, and not lame or cheap.

Is Xaero's vision of in-game sportsmanship valid? Well, that's debatable, isn't it?

[legacy-cyghost]

I get this last post! thx Discord and well said

some one calls me a cheat ingame and *immediately* I play worse

first cause I want to chat and tell the offender to grow up and get a clue and second because I don't play well when I am infuriated

go figure

and thx for explaining your post in a more user friendly mode

*Discord wins cup once more! proved it was a fake drug test. He was framed*

Internet Police called in to investigate matters further

**********

[legacy-Psycho Dad]

Hmmm, it appears that the scope of the debate has indeed broadened to include social behavior (i.e. trashtalking). This certainly muddies the waters.

/runs of to discuss new strategies with his crack debate team...



EDIT: And considering that my evening offerings are fueled by Bud Light, this may develop into a sub-debate about the intellectual enhancement qualities of domestic versus import beers (from an American stand point). The plot thickens...

[legacy-cyghost]

mine is fueled by whiskey..... which might be worse than mushrooms - Irish Whiskey

aaaaa to be old and able to drink

so social antics are considered *cheap* in our defintion? I certainly find it offensive and it detracts from the fun I get from playing the game

campers and spammers and whatnot don't spoil my fun - I enjoy getting em

but the abuse! maybe I should swich off all messages? Is that actually possible? (I have all talking sounds and death messages off..)

Thing is I *enjoy* chatting when not playing a serious game...

[Discord]

Originally posted by cyghost
so social antics are considered *cheap* in our defintion? I certainly find it offensive and it detracts from the fun I get from playing the game

I don't think we've really defined anything as cheap/ lame... I've just been trying to establish that the idea that something in the game might be definable as lame has some merit.

And you've really hit it with the comment about "detracting from the fun." After all, on pubs we're ostensibly playing just for fun. Indeed, the purpose of games is fun and relaxation is it not?

To me, the real question to be answered when asking if something is lame is, "does it make the game stop being fun?" And for reasonable people, that question has to be answered from the perspective of others as well as oneself. And context is important as well... what's fun in a clan match is way different a lot of times from what's fun on a pub.

And again, that's why these discussions happen on forums and I think it's good that they do. House rules/ ettiquette vary so much from server to server that it's hard to know what behavior is appropriate at times. When people ask, "is this lame?" they're trying to find out what they should accept/ expect in general terms and what they shouldn't... and that's just common courtesy. :up:

You'll never get hard and fast answers from these discussions, of course, but you'll at least get an indication of what you may or may not want to do a lot of, and what kinds of players hold which opinions... so in that sense it's far from useless to "complain" on a forum, since the replies will give you some clarity on the subject and you may even change peoples' minds if enough people find common ground on the subject.

The idea of "lame"ness is really just there to help people interact with eachother in a way that keeps everybody (or at least the majority) happy, having fun and coming back to keep playing the game. Naturally there are disagreements, but even those disagreements give minorities a chance to be heard and serve to at least notify people that not everybody enjoys the same things they do. Lameness is a quirky ingredient in the glue that holds the online community together. Additionally, it's a good barometer by which the game developers can judge what's working and what might need an alteration.

[legacy-NiTrOcALyPsE]

Whether it can be used or abused, I'll use it to my advantage, no matter the expense of the enemy.

Thou shalt only make me whole by stopping to complain about it.

[Discord]

Originally posted by NiTrOcALyPsE
Whether it can be used or abused, I'll use it to my advantage, no matter the expense of the enemy.

Thou shalt only make me whole by stopping to complain about it.

If you're going to do it no matter what anybody thinks, don't you think it's kind of hypocritical to expect people to stop complaining about it?

If you're going to ask me to "suck it up," I'm going to ask you to do the same. Bye now.

[legacy-Xaero*nz]

Originally posted by cyghost
in the Great Debate between Psycho Dad & Xaero*nz I declare the winner to be....

Discord!

congratulations to you and the family

(you only get it cause I had to read your post three times before I *kinda* got it)

PD? are you a real dad m8?

Xaero? I hope the Kiwies kicks a$$ m8 - the lions are going DOWN

until the tri-nations!!

dude the lions are going to get annihilated >_<

[legacy-Psycho Dad]

I think it comes down to a player's personal expectations and perception of proper gameplay. It's not a question of anyone's opinions being valid or not - an opinion can't really be labeled right or wrong. It's a personal belief. However it can be debated whether the opinion is reasonable or has any basis in reality or practicality.

My opinion is that camping, spamming and sniping fall within the boundaries of acceptable gameplay. I think it is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect people NOT to use these tactics if they find them effective or fun.

Trash talking is another matter and is not so black and white for me. I don't mind a little competitive banter to try to psych out your opponent. I consider that a reasonable (and often funny) tactic. But there are limits. When someone becomes abusive or disruptive then it's no longer a tactic, it's just someone being an asshat in the game. At what point is the line crossed? I dunno. I'll know when it has been crossed for me, but the line will vary from player to player.

[legacy-NiTrOcALyPsE]

Originally posted by Discord
...don't you think it's kind of hypocritical to expect people to stop complaining about it?

Originally posted by NiTrOcALyPsE
Thou shalt only make me whole by stopping to complain about it.

What?!

[legacy-Psycho Dad]

Originally posted by Discord
If you're going to do it no matter what anybody thinks, don't you think it's kind of hypocritical to expect people to stop complaining about it?

If you're going to ask me to "suck it up," I'm going to ask you to do the same. Bye now.

I think he meant it makes him happy when people complain about his tactics.

EDIT: Heh, we both posted at the same time.

[Crotale]

Aside from the aimbotters and map exploiters, I can tolerate almost anything else. The one thing I can't tolerate is spawn killing (spawn camping/killing). It's one thing to wait until a player has fully spawned, then home in on him. But some idiots love to just camp the spawn points for "free" frags. How on earth can anyone, especially an unskilled player on a pub, ever have any fun if they can't even engage anyone on the map if they keep getting spawn killed? Is it a legitimate tactic? I suppose. Is it a skill? I think not. What skill does it take to lob rockets or flak balls into a spawn point when you see a player re-spawn? How is a spawning player supposed to protect himself against this type of attack? Does any spawning player honestly feel that a Shieldgun Primary is going to protect him against a slew of rockets?

[Discord]

Originally posted by NiTrOcALyPsE
What?!

Srry, I tripped over your flowery grammatical stylings.