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    #16
    Originally posted by Princess_Frosty
    dont bother opening your mouth on the server it will acomplish nothing.
    But what if I define that as "fun?"

    Or are you going to be some kind of elitist poopy- pants and tell me that what I'm doing is "lame?"

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by Discord
      But what if I define that as "fun?"

      Or are you going to be some kind of elitist poopy- pants and tell me that what I'm doing is "lame?"
      Well you have a point, but on the other hand most server admins rely on feedback from the regulars to help determine what is acceptable and what is not. Every server admin wants to keep as many people happy as possible so the server becomes as popular as possible. The goal for nearly anyone that runs a server is to have it filled as much as possible.

      So yeah, basically if the majority of the players on a server decide that what you are doing is lame then that's probably not the right server for you to play on. But there's a place for everyone. At the other extreme there are servers who have admins that love running pure sniper servers (or whatever). I think just about everyone can find a server that suits their tastes.

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Psycho Dad
        Well you have a point, but on the other hand
        Awww, you cut off my punchline. Lame. :sour:



        But yeah, you're right... it's consensus that determines the thing.

        Like I said, UT in its unadulterated state is pretty well designed and there's not much opportunity for real griefing. The rest is down to personal preference, which varies pretty widely from place to place... the sniper servers you mentioned being a great example. The house rules on those things are intricate and sometimes pretty bizarre.

        Still though, this leans in the direction of saying that Do What Thou Wilt shall NOT be the whole of the law. Just about anything you can do in UT is considered "lame" somewhere, be it sniping, camping, not camping, spamming, what have you... and the mores are totally different from server to server.

        When it comes down to it, the thing that gets you around in UT is the same thing that gets you around in real life... have at least something of a care for the sensibilities of others and you'll do just fine. And that's why there's "the Great Debate," as you put it. The question of what's "lame" and what isn't is constantly being brought up in an effort to reach the consensus that makes sense out of the whole mess. Seems like a perfectly natural and wholly democratic process to me, despite the fact that it sometimes gets a little heated.

        Comment


          #19
          I used an example of professional UT players to show that at a high level of competition, the players dont need to use these tactics to win, they are above it.

          Yes, every legal tactic is 'legitimate', but i beleive that when people play in a 'cheap' way, they are 'cheap'. Thats all. Yes, there is nothing anyone can do about it, but going back to your first post in the other thread, i think it is perfectly legitimate to get a little ****** when people use these 'tactics' and make the game ****, you can call them 'cheap' because thats how they are playing...

          Comment


            #20
            Screw the CPL, and screw the "professional" game players. Unlike real sports, the only people that care about "professional" gamers are people that want to become "professonal" gamers because their idols have l33t names like Fatal1ty instead of real names and win (relatively) large amounts of money for sitting in front of a computer for a weekend instead of doing anything physical. TechTV and G4 merged because neither network had the viewership to stand on it's own. Yeah, people are lining up to watch other people play games alright.

            But then, this is akin to the argument that comes up around here before each version of UT, and I expect 2007 will be no different - "professional" vs. casual players and the features list of the upcoming game. Who has more credibility? Shouldn't the "pros" get to dictate what goes in the game, since they're more important than the little people?

            So yeah, screw the CPL. These people are wusses for changing the rules like that - hey, if you're going to try to ruin gaming for a generation of players, you might as well stick to the rules you set out with.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Xaero*nz
              I used an example of professional UT players to show that at a high level of competition, the players dont need to use these tactics to win, they are above it.

              Yes, every legal tactic is 'legitimate', but i beleive that when people play in a 'cheap' way, they are 'cheap'. Thats all. Yes, there is nothing anyone can do about it, but going back to your first post in the other thread, i think it is perfectly legitimate to get a little ****** when people use these 'tactics' and make the game ****, you can call them 'cheap' because thats how they are playing...
              No they are not above it. If the tactics you consider "cheap" work, and they are legal, then they will use them. But generally at a professional level these tactics are useless except in a few isolated cases. Go back and read BeerNut's thread about the match between Vo0 and fatal1ty. These two are at the highest level of professional gaming.

              I'm not saying that you don't have a right to get ****** about how someone is playing. I'm saying that you do not have a right to tell other people how to play. As I've said several times now, if you don't like the way people are playing then find another server, run your own server, or find a clan that suits you.

              You simply cannot play on the general public servers and expect people to play the way you want them to. Ain't gonna happen. And it shouldn't happen. You do not dictate the ethics or morality or mindset of the game. Dude, get over it. Is this your first online gaming experience? Things are pretty much the same in any online game you play. Sometimes it can be aggravating, I agree, but you can either choose to continue to bang your head against the wall, quit the game, adapt to the gameplay in the general public servers, or find people/servers that suit you.

              *****ing about it, especially on these forums, will accomplish nothing. Trust me.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Psycho Dad
                I'm saying that you do not have a right to tell other people how to play.



                if you don't like the way people are playing then find another server, run your own server, or find a clan that suits you.


                *****ing about it, especially on these forums, will accomplish nothing.

                Uh... yeah.

                Either everything is permitted and nothing is true, or not. Looks to me like you're trying to have it both ways.

                And that's just where it goes, every time... it's all staunch relativism until you get irritated yourself.

                "Some people just don't love their fellow man. And I HATE people like that!" -- Tom Lehrer




                To elaborate a bit, if nothing that is possible ingame is lame, then being of the opinion (and stating as much) that some things are lame is equally NOT lame... after all, it's certainly possible ingame to do so.

                And if it's not lame to advocate that opinion, why ***** about it on these forums, since it obviously won't do a lick of good to anyone? Eh?

                Indeed, if you're truly of the opinion that nothing is lame, then this whole discussion must be of zero interest to you since the whole issue is decided by a carte blanche thumbs- up.

                If, on the other hand, you're arguing the lameness of a given position, then your argument is de facto in favor of a standard of lameness, which can only be determined by ongoing dialogue on the subject.

                This is the disadvantage at which the "no lamers" put themselves. Nothing is in essence the same as everything, and thus the position that nothing is lame (and thus by extention everything is not lame) is absolutist in nature. By contrast, the position that some things are lame and others are not allows for shades of meaning -- it's much easier to defend.

                In short, in order to make a succesful apology for your position, you're forced to concede that your opponents in the argument have as valid a position as anyone else's including your own. If you can do that with a straight face, then you're a better man than you appear to be.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Psycho Dad
                  No they are not above it. If the tactics you consider "cheap" work, and they are legal, then they will use them. But generally at a professional level these tactics are useless except in a few isolated cases. Go back and read BeerNut's thread about the match between Vo0 and fatal1ty. These two are at the highest level of professional gaming.

                  I'm not saying that you don't have a right to get ****** about how someone is playing. I'm saying that you do not have a right to tell other people how to play. As I've said several times now, if you don't like the way people are playing then find another server, run your own server, or find a clan that suits you.

                  You simply cannot play on the general public servers and expect people to play the way you want them to. Ain't gonna happen. And it shouldn't happen. You do not dictate the ethics or morality or mindset of the game. Dude, get over it. Is this your first online gaming experience? Things are pretty much the same in any online game you play. Sometimes it can be aggravating, I agree, but you can either choose to continue to bang your head against the wall, quit the game, adapt to the gameplay in the general public servers, or find people/servers that suit you.

                  *****ing about it, especially on these forums, will accomplish nothing. Trust me.
                  1: i never TOLD anyone how to play, i (and so many other players) just deem certain tactics 'cheap'. if people want to use them, i cant stop them, but that doesnt change anything.
                  2: as i said, i dont play on servers where this happens excessively.
                  3: No, i realise this happens all over the gaming world. In counter strike source for example, in a mod called zombie hunt, people will sit on top of boxes that are impossible to climb for the zombies (bots) who only have knives. They do this to get top server rankings. Legal? yes Effective? yes Cheap? yes! Its their choice whether they want to do this, but how stink is it to use a tactic that has no counter measure? i mean seriously...
                  4: I never "*****ed" about it, i only expressed my view in the other thread that some tactics are indeed 'cheap', whether my opinion will change anything or not (which of course it wont).

                  Comment


                    #24
                    It's all part of the game. If there is a sniper or camper, find him. Take him out.
                    I dont 'pass' or 'fail' games no matter how I play. They 'pass' or 'fail' me depending how much fun they are. If someone does not like the way I play they don't have to play with me. If I don't like the way someone plays I don't have to play with them.

                    I guess there will always be people just trying to ruin someone elses fun bcuz we are on the net and can't slap them in the face.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Discord
                      Uh... yeah.

                      Either everything is permitted and nothing is true, or not. Looks to me like you're trying to have it both ways.

                      And that's just where it goes, every time... it's all staunch relativism until you get irritated yourself.

                      "Some people just don't love their fellow man. And I HATE people like that!" -- Tom Lehrer




                      To elaborate a bit, if nothing that is possible ingame is lame, then being of the opinion (and stating as much) that some things are lame is equally NOT lame... after all, it's certainly possible ingame to do so.

                      And if it's not lame to advocate that opinion, why ***** about it on these forums, since it obviously won't do a lick of good to anyone? Eh?

                      Indeed, if you're truly of the opinion that nothing is lame, then this whole discussion must be of zero interest to you since the whole issue is decided by a carte blanche thumbs- up.

                      If, on the other hand, you're arguing the lameness of a given position, then your argument is de facto in favor of a standard of lameness, which can only be determined by ongoing dialogue on the subject.

                      This is the disadvantage at which the "no lamers" put themselves. Nothing is in essence the same as everything, and thus the position that nothing is lame (and thus by extention everything is not lame) is absolutist in nature. By contrast, the position that some things are lame and others are not allows for shades of meaning -- it's much easier to defend.

                      In short, in order to make a succesful apology for your position, you're forced to concede that your opponents in the argument have as valid a position as anyone else's including your own. If you can do that with a straight face, then you're a better man than you appear to be.
                      Try to stay anchored to reality dude. Try to grasp the concepts of "frame of reference" and "situational reality". I never said NOTHING is lame. I said there are no cheap tactics in the game apart from cheating using aimbots or map glitches. IN GAME, he wants people to play the way he wants people to play. That's not going to happen unless he either runs his own server, finds a server where people play the way he wants them to play, or finds a clan that shares his views and plays the way he wants to play.

                      *****ing about his grievences here, on these forums, will make no difference. I'm not trying to express some universal truth. I'm just saying he has no right to expect people to play UT2K4 the way he wants them to. Basically he needs to mellow out and be more adaptable to situations that he cannot control.

                      I apologize for nothing I have said.

                      You ate some sort of mushroom before you posted that, didn't you?

                      Comment


                        #26
                        in the Great Debate between Psycho Dad & Xaero*nz I declare the winner to be....

                        Discord!

                        congratulations to you and the family

                        (you only get it cause I had to read your post three times before I *kinda* got it)

                        PD? are you a real dad m8?

                        Xaero? I hope the Kiwies kicks a$$ m8 - the lions are going DOWN

                        until the tri-nations!!

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Xaero*nz
                          1: i never TOLD anyone how to play, i (and so many other players) just deem certain tactics 'cheap'. if people want to use them, i cant stop them, but that doesnt change anything.
                          2: as i said, i dont play on servers where this happens excessively.
                          3: No, i realise this happens all over the gaming world. In counter strike source for example, in a mod called zombie hunt, people will sit on top of boxes that are impossible to climb for the zombies (bots) who only have knives. They do this to get top server rankings. Legal? yes Effective? yes Cheap? yes! Its their choice whether they want to do this, but how stink is it to use a tactic that has no counter measure? i mean seriously...
                          4: I never "*****ed" about it, i only expressed my view in the other thread that some tactics are indeed 'cheap', whether my opinion will change anything or not (which of course it wont).
                          1. It simpy comes down to what YOUR PERSONAL DEFINITION of cheap is. Recognize the fact that this is YOUR opinion and allow for the fact that others may not share your opinion. You said that common decency dictates that people should not use cheap tactics. Therefore you are not only expressing an opinion about a specific tactic, you are passing judgement on people who use these tactics.

                          2. So what's the problem?

                          3. Again, you insist that there is no counter-measure. Lets stick with UT2K4. Give me a specific example of a tactic against which there is no counter measure (aside from the previously established definition of cheating - aimbots and map glitches).

                          4. Okay you didn't ***** about anything. You whined. The definition of whining, as I understand it, is to complain about a situation that you have no control over and can offer no solution for.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by cyghost
                            in the Great Debate between Psycho Dad & Xaero*nz I declare the winner to be....

                            Discord!

                            congratulations to you and the family

                            (you only get it cause I had to read your post three times before I *kinda* got it)

                            PD? are you a real dad m8?

                            Xaero? I hope the Kiwies kicks a$$ m8 - the lions are going DOWN

                            until the tri-nations!!
                            No fair! I didn't have any mushrooms to help me.

                            Yes, I am a real dad. Some people also consider me somewhat psychotic, but we won't pursue that here. :weird:

                            I dunno what the rest of your post means.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              *Discord looses prize during DRUG test*

                              using banned substance(s) to enhance brain power and making a post *no one* can fully comprehend our Discord's prize has been reposessed - its up for grabs again.. the ut community is shocked by these turn of events - stay glued to your monitors as we bring you more exciting developments hourly

                              *************************************************

                              btw I believe as PD does that *nothing* in UT2k4 is cheap - there are annoying things but no *cheap* tactics

                              throwing that ball underhanded *was* cheap in most ppls minds - including the Ausies I have spoken to - they take the win tho

                              as to how these two examples are different ie cheap tactics in UT and the cheap cricket shot - I have no idea

                              I need some mind altering substances of my own to answer that one

                              have fun may - we debate on forever

                              Comment


                                #30
                                I didn't feel like reading the whole thread but i will say one thing

                                People who complain about camping / spawn rapeing or anything else are just being a baby, if you can't counter it then tough ****, learn how to use the shield gun

                                Comment

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