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    The Great Debate

    Okay it's not that great, but I wanted to pull it out of the aggression survey thread so it wouldn't get closed.

    Originally posted by Xaero*nz

    The purpose of any game is to win. If you don't use every legal means available to achieve that goal then you have failed.
    ??? its also possible to win without using what most people would define as cheap tactics... so you havent 'failed'.

    Some people (including myself) just pretty much play to have fun. It's nice to win sometimes, but basically I play how I like to play and if I get out-smarted then so be it.
    Well you're certainly not arguing a very 'fun' point of view... people camping outside your base in torlan or getting headshotted constantly by people camping at the top of the tower on face (things that require very little skill) certainly isnt fun. If tactics like this were widespread and everyone did them, the game wouldnt be very fun at all...

    Professional sports teams do indeed think in a ''absolutely anything to win, even if its a complete exploitation and will be frowned upon' kind of way'. And you admitted yourself - it was perfectly legal. The rules for most professional sports have evolved to prevent things like you described from happening. Cricket has been around forever. I can't believe that no one has used this strategy before. Congrats to the Aussies for their ingenuity.
    Is UT a professional sport? Not at public server level. Its funny that the top players in the world in 'professional' ut competitions dont seem to use these 'tactics', they also consider them 'cheap'.. a player hiding in a map (so as not to get fragged and waste time) at any professional competition will be VERY frowned upon and told to stop, even if this is within the rules.

    Heh, assume nothing. You are simply another UT player trying to force your own concept of the way the game should be played upon everyone else.

    Cheats (like aimbots) and exploiting map glitches (like hiding a flag in a wall or finding a hole that you can shoot from but cannot be hit from) suck and need to be fixed. But if someone enjoys sniping from a tower or camping a vehicle then good for them. It's probably the only thing they know how to do, and if you can't come up with a counter measure to neutralize them then they have bettered you.
    thats the thing, they havent 'bettered' me. they are merely using a little amount of skill to exploit an element of the gameplay thats allows this to be effective. They havent 'out smarted' me because there are no possible counter methods. In this way it is exactly the same as map exploitation or aimbotting.

    little amount of skill + exploitative hole in gameplay/system/map = effective. Brain power has nothing to do with the equation.

    If a player realises im coming round a corner and plants a combo or flak ball right on that spot - THEN they have outsmarted me, this isnt cheap.

    This elitist 'play by my rules or you suck' mentality carries no weight in the real world. There are always other servers to play on. Or run your own server and set your own rules.
    If anything I'd say these 'rules' (ie no 'cheap' tactics) are set by the value of decency... if someone goes outside these, they are free to do so, but I beleive doing so is also going outside the realm of decency as well... I don't tend to play on servers with people who use such tactics excessively...
    Now then. First of all you used an incident from a professional sporting event between two rival contries as an example of cheap tactics when you were expressing your feelings about cheap tactics used on public UT servers. You can't really compare the two. One involves professional, paid athletes. Their job is to win. Their ability to adapt to a given situation and win is what got them on the team in the first place. The specific situation you described of the bowler rolling the ball so it could not be hit has parallels in many professional games. In baseball it is common to see a pitcher deliberately pitch the ball far outside of the strike zone so a good batter cannot hit it and possibly allow players on base to score. In American football it is common to see the offensive team simply fall on top of the ball to maintain control when the clock has almost run out. There are similar tactics in basketball, soccer (your football), hockey, etc. Timeouts are often used near the end of games in an attempt to stop the opposing team's momentum and break their concentration. THESE ARE ACCEPTABLE TACTICS. If you don't us them then you won't be going home on the happy bus.

    I never said it was fun to play people that camp and spam and snipe. I'm simply saying they are legitimate tactics and shouldn't be considered cheap. And if you hadn't noticed - many people do in fact use those tactics on public servers and it is in fact rather widespread. Most of the public servers are not very fun to play on with the exception of those that are closely admined and have set rules about what tactics are allowed.

    No, UT is not a professional sport at the public server level. You were the one that used professional sports as an example, so why are you criticizing me for using the same type of example? Cheap tactic! I doubt that a professional UT competition would be stopped if everyone were playing by the rules whether they were doing something 'frowned upon' or not. If it is legal, then it's legal. Besides, if someone is hiding somewhere he's probably not doing his team a whole lotta good.

    I never said using annoying tactics took any intelligence, but if you can't come up with a way to counter their tactics then you have been bettered. There are always ways to counter. It may be annoying having to deal with it, but I'm sorry - sniping and camping are NOT "exactly the same as map exploitation or aimbotting".

    It's pointless to use words like 'decency', 'fairplay', or 'honor' when referring to public servers. Asshats play on public servers. There are lots of asshats playing on public servers. That being said, and as I've already stated, there are some good public clan-run servers out there that are properly admined and mostly asshat-free. Find one of those to play on. Or start playing in pugs. Or join a clan that has the same values as you do and play privately with them.

    I don't use the tactics you are talking about and I don't like playing against people that use them. It gets very tiring playing 'gib the sniper' all the time. So I found a great server that was fun to play on and was closely watched, and then I joined the clan that ran it.

    And I lived happily ever after.

    The End. :noob:

    #2
    :up:

    Comment


      #3
      are u saying u hate cheaters cus i coudnt be bothered to read you whole post

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by haj01
        are u saying u hate cheaters cus i coudnt be bothered to read you whole post
        +1 and also, the point of any game is to win, but also to have fun .....

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by haj01
          are u saying u hate cheaters cus i coudnt be bothered to read you whole post
          No, I was saying that the firing rate for the sniper rifle was too slow and should be closer to that of the minigun.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by badger_fruit
            +1 and also, the point of any game is to win, but also to have fun .....
            i agree to where usay but also have fun. because i hate botters !they dont let u enjoy the game and once i saw this big cheater who got the flag and jumped through the wall! i was like wtf? and all of a sudden he had scored a point for capturing the flag but he cheated!

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Psycho Dad
              No, I was saying that the firing rate for the sniper rifle was too slow and should be closer to that of the minigun.
              ROFL yeah whatever!

              Can you imagine it; automatic sniper rifile would pwn but be VERY unfair; in reality it takes a few moments to re-load and what have you.

              Worst post ever.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: The Great Debate

                Originally posted by Psycho Dad
                ...I doubt that a professional UT competition would be stopped if everyone were playing by the rules whether they were doing something 'frowned upon' or not. If it is legal, then it's legal....
                Not quite 'stopped', but close...

                Compliments of the completely retarded CPL:

                In one-versus-one deathmatch competitions, the Cyberathlete Professional League (CPL) expects all players to remain competitive and engaged in combat throughout the entire match. Stalling and/or hiding in an effort to keep your opponent from finding you or to stall game play, is unprofessional and not acceptable during tournament matches.
                .

                So in other words... they just changed the rules: Hide at the end of a match, get DQ'd.

                At least the CPL is staying consistent with stupid decision making (PK over UT, etc...)

                Comment


                  #9
                  One guy's cheap tactic is another guy's indispensable strategy. I refer you to the powerup timing debate.

                  And the bit about the automatic sniper rifle is what they call 'sarcasm' I believe, of some sort.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Psycho Dad
                    No, I was saying that the firing rate for the sniper rifle was too slow and should be closer to that of the minigun.
                    :haha: :haha: :haha:

                    Nicely trolled, Dad, well done. :up:

                    Anyway, personally I'm a big believer in good sportsmanship and fair play. I know that's unenforceable -- which, really if you think about it, is kind of the beauty of it -- and it's really kind of dependent on concensus and context. But I also think that a kind of blanket amorality about such things (especially where one's living isn't concerned) goes into the not- such- a- good- thing box.

                    That said, in vanilla UT there are really not many cheap shots to be pulled off... I know I'm guilty of a spidermine rant or two, but I also know that's a game- design issue colliding with personal taste more than anything. Spawncamping isn't even really an issue, since there are few if any inescapable spawn areas and the rules governing where you spawn are pretty well laid out.

                    For what little is left, IMO a team that's beating the pants off of their adversaries would, in a perfect world, at least lay off the low blows and clobber the other guys on the up- and- up... if only for politeness' sake. On the other hand, from a team that's losing badly and desperate to put points on the board, some shennanigans here and there I can live with.

                    And like you said, with pro sports or in a competitive settting it's a bit of a different story... although I gotta admit I was unaware of that ruling from CPL.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      You made some good points and I agree with you.

                      I can usually be found on top of a hill with the Hellbender Turrent Gun. What's wrong with that? How about the "sniper rifle" or "lighting gun". Do you really expect me to run down to where you are at and use those weapons? No, I'm going to be in a spot where I can snipe you.

                      Fortunately for you these weapons tend to give away my position. And, if you are too much the noob to come kill me then all the better for people to try sniper tactics.


                      When I get down on your level you will see a face full of flak.


                      <FLAK MONKEY>

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Re: The Great Debate

                        Originally posted by BeerNut
                        Not quite 'stopped', but close...

                        Compliments of the completely retarded CPL:

                        .

                        So in other words... they just changed the rules: Hide at the end of a match, get DQ'd.

                        At least the CPL is staying consistent with stupid decision making (PK over UT, etc...)
                        I know nearly nothing about the CPL other than the fact that they dropped UT for PK. I understand very well what a total sham that was, because I was a beta-tester for PK multiplayer. By the way, have they been able to get PK multiplayer to work yet?

                        Anyway - are you saying that it's bad not to be able to hide or stall in a CPL match, or that CPL took too long to make the rule? I don't play competitively (understatement of the year) so I don't know what is considered acceptable or not. Either way it seems like the rule is way too subjective. Exactly at what point does a player cross the line? It seems far too open to individual interpretation by whomever (whoever?) referees the match.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Re: Re: The Great Debate

                          Originally posted by Psycho Dad
                          Exactly at what point does a player cross the line?
                          I thought about that... it might not be too bad if they had a shot clock, like in basketball. Lose a point, say, if you go longer than x amount of time before shooting at your opponent.

                          That's probably not the best way to play the game, but I can kind of understand it if one of CPL's goals is to make money from paid spectators... hide and seek UT is probably pretty dull to watch.

                          Although I gotta say I find their description of the tactic as "unprofessional" to be pretty high up there on the scale of BS drivel. Sounds like something your boss at McDonald's would say to you if you came into work with your hair dyed blue or something.

                          "Cyberathlete Professional League." Pffffft. The more I hear about it the more it sounds like some insanely stupid nonsense cooked up by a bunch of redneck @$$holes from Florida. :haha:

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Re: Re: The Great Debate

                            Originally posted by Psycho Dad
                            Anyway - are you saying that it's bad not to be able to hide or stall in a CPL match, or that CPL took too long to make the rule? I don't play competitively (understatement of the year) so I don't know what is considered acceptable or not. Either way it seems like the rule is way too subjective. Exactly at what point does a player cross the line? It seems far too open to individual interpretation by whomever (whoever?) referees the match.
                            Exactly... You nailed it.

                            Here's the backdrop:
                            Vo0 defeated fatal1ty in the latest PK finals match. For the last AT LEAST 90 seconds of the match, Vo0 hid on the roof of a building that you are not supposed to be able to gain access to. Since the hiding that ended the match was not exactly popular with specs or sponsors, they changed the rules that you can no longer hide... A subjective pile of **** if you ask me... pretty much lets a CPL ref 'decide' a match at will.

                            The funny part is, Fat is the KING of hiding at the end of matches to avoid getting fragged... But as soon as the tactic smokes the CPL's golden boy, they change the rules... nice.

                            Anyways, I guess all I'm trying to say is that the CPL is bunch of dumbasses... First they pick a game that is intrisically FLAWED for competitive play, and then change the way players behave in-game to compensate for their initial crappy decision.

                            I guess the relevance to this thread is that 'cheap' play can have rule-changing effects on tournaments.

                            /rant

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I'd like to add that other players' behavior have had much more of an impact on whether a game is enjoyable for me or not. I can deal with the sniping, camping and spamming (although I play instagib mostly so spamming is pointless and even self-defeating because it gives away your position).

                              My biggest problem, and my only problem really, is with the people who deliberately play/behave in a manner for the explicit purpose of ruining the match for either a specific person or for everyone in general.

                              For instance, when I first started getting interested in instagib after playing several of the different game types I started out on the low grav servers. It was a fun, fast-paced, insane fragfest. Then I started to specialize even more and became interested in iCTF because I liked the team aspect and the fact that there was a specific goal (although LG iCTF tends to be somewhat chaotic and often turns into iTDM or even iDM).

                              This is where the problems started for me. Nearly every night I'd run into an asshat on my own team that would start shooting at his own team members and knocking them off platforms into space. Very easy to do in LG. WTF? One time I even had someone follow me to another server and specifically target me for this through several games. I have no idea why, because I rarely speak during a match except to say GG at the end. Once I switched to RG iCTF this was no longer a problem, so that's what I stuck with.

                              But there were still the asshats that seemed to be on the servers simply to vent their anger on everyone else and either talk smack or be incredibly offensive, and generally disrupt and ruin the game.

                              If you ask me, sniping and camping are trivial compared to the haters and the trouble-makers. And I think these are the people that have hurt the community the most. These are the people that the newbies encounter first, because these asshats are banned from the more competitive and well-admined servers. You have to have a pretty thick skin to break through the **** and find the good people when first starting out in this game. Unless of course you're an asshat by nature, then you'll fit right in right away.

                              I feel better now - just had to get that off my chest.

                              Comment

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