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UDK K2 or (Kismet Squared (2))

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    #16
    Seems to me, some of you here are really saying that you wish you could find a programmer, but dammit, they are so expensive -- and curmudgeonly to boot!

    Word of entirely unsolicited advice:

    Before you let despair drag you into delusion about a magical fairydust Coder-B-Gone tool, you might try offering chocolate or meat with your pitch. In my experience, that goes a long way toward piquing interest and softening the chitinous shell of the talented programmer. I have yet to meet one who is not infinitely more receptive to your idea with a pan of brownies or a steak in front of them.

    Also, it helps if you don't talk about how much you wish they weren't necessary. I have observed that, like anyone, programmers find it much easier to be interested in what you do if you show reciprocal and sincere interest in learning about and respecting what they do. As an added bonus, that makes it so much easier to work with them, since you don't go asking for ridiculous things that make them sigh and wonder whether they will have to take you all the way back to "In the beginning..." before you stop asking for things that violate the laws of physics.

    That said, I'll be interested to see what K2 can do so that I know how much it will annoy Wyldhunt if I play with it.

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      #17
      Dont remember anyone saying they weren't necessary, K2 would just be great for those that work alone, and have some coding experience however are seriously very visual.

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        #18
        I would think that level-independant kismet would be useful for a number of high-level design elements. Say, constructing branching conversation trees. You could probably do that with one ConversationNode and a uscript->kismet call to an event in some kismet file held in your character's defaultproperties.

        And other stuff that's supposed to be attached to a character that can be in multiple maps, which you don't want to hard code.

        I imagine it would need a lot of game-specific nodes that depend on how you've set up your actors and stuff.

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          #19
          Originally posted by TheAgent View Post
          Dont remember anyone saying they weren't necessary, K2 would just be great for those that work alone, and have some coding experience however are seriously very visual.
          ... Well, serves me right for giving unsolicited advice.

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            #20
            Originally posted by Wyldhunt View Post
            No... It'll have to be limited. That, or it'll be just as hard to learn as Uscript.
            exactly
            but some people can work better with wiring boxes together than trying to write code.
            NI Reaktor can get unbelievably complex, but the way its done is managable.
            there is no code alternative, just the kismet style thing.
            this is a well known type of visual coding also present in bidule and max dsp amongst others. these are all sound software cos thats what i know about but im sure there are others as well.

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              #21
              Yeah wiring boxes is my thing! I used it in Maya, I used it in many other programs so this is really what works best for me. Whether you can make a whole game with K2 or just a little more than what you can do now with Kismet, it would still be very nice!

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                #22
                Originally posted by TheAgent View Post
                Found this on unreal wiki, its still unannounced and also not sure if its accurate.

                "Kismet 2[confirm] or K2 is a visual programming feature. K2 is not confirmed by Epic Games yet and is therefor pure speculation from the community. K2 first popped up in the recent UDK builds starting with the K2 modifiers such as K2Call found in various classes. There are as well many new classes with the K2 prefix that are very suspect to be related to a new upcoming visual programming feature for the UDK.

                By looking at the classes it's clear that this is designed for a visual programming feature for UDK, they can be found in UDK-2010-07 and UDK-2010-08 in the Engine folder of Development\Source. Some of these classes are named K2Node_Code, K2Node_ForLoop, K2Node_Func and K2Node_IfElse."

                Did you take a look at the "Discussion" page of that article?

                Seems like you are wrong with Kismet 2: http://forums.epicgames.com/showpost...7&postcount=49 - Crusha 15/9/10 14:50 UTC

                Interesting i've noticed it had some stuff related to AI as well but even then this still makes sense i guess. --Eliot 16:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

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                  #23
                  Well no i didnt read through it deeply enough : P, but thats some cool stuff.

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                    #24
                    I say keep coding as it is. Once the hurdle of understanding UScript is completed, UScript is insanely easy to use. It just takes research and practice, mostly research.

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                      #25
                      There'll never be a visual replacement for Unrealscript; it's just not practical. Complex game classes are quite simply far too vast and complex to be easily encompassed by a node based system - the material editor is an example of a node based system that generates HLSL and can handle quite a lot more than kismet can handle game logic; however it's by no means a reasonable replacement for writing shaders and has very strong limits.

                      If there is indeed a K2 (and evidence suggests there will be), I'm expecting it to be little more than a kismet extension; some much needed flow control statements (for loops as an example).

                      A 'custom script' node would also be handy.

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by ambershee View Post
                        A 'custom script' node would also be handy.
                        Time to create one.

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                          #27
                          The idea of having a replacement for code using kismet is a bit unrealistic, but I disagree with those who say it's useless.

                          I myself have tried to learn code ever since I was 16, back in UT1. I took classes, bought books, talked to friends: I could never seem to get code. I gave up on the idea of learning to code, instead I focused on art. For some reason my brain cannot think in lines of code: call it a mental handicap. Yet, when UT3 was being released: I was reading up on the new material editor, and how designers and artists were essentially "coding" with boxes and lines. For some reason my brain was able to understand this form of programming: before I had even picked up UT3, I read up on Hourences tutorials and tips posted on his website. When I finally got UT3 in my hands, I was able to 'code' awesome materials with crazy effects. When I picked up kismet, I was able to understand that too: It was far more limited than the mat-ed (in my opinion) but I could at least get it. Unfortunately, no matter how many tutorials I download (and I download many) I still do not have the capacity to make even the most basic of game because I don't have the ability to code.

                          Let me put it to you this way: If epic released an alternative to coding using unrealscript with kismet/material editor style visual programming: I would probably have a title for sale by now.

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                            #28
                            I know how you feel on that Kazeohin. I basically have the same problem.

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                              #29
                              You should not take UnrealScript as your first programming language. It has some concepts that are too hard when you start from 0, I'd say.

                              Try learning Java first. There are dozens of good tutorials out there, simply because it is far more spread as a "real" programming language and it's easy to get some working code in Java (and it's very strict when it comes to it's syntax, UnrealScript will go easier on you then). You can learn all the concepts about data types, classes, inheritance and OOP in general in Java.
                              IDEs like NetBeans are your friends because the extensive documentation for each class and it's functions is directly readable in the IntelliSense, making learning even easier.

                              And afterwards it's not that hard to get the UnrealScript's concept as well. Some things may even appear more logical and comfortable than Java, once you fully understand the concept why things are like they are.

                              You shouldn't care much for replication in the beginning, that would be unnecessarily confusing. It can be fixed up later if you are really going for an online game.

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by Crusha K. Rool View Post
                                You should not take UnrealScript as your first programming language. It has some concepts that are too hard when you start from 0, I'd say.

                                Try learning Java first. There are dozens of good tutorials out there, simply because it is far more spread as a "real" programming language and it's easy to get some working code in Java (and it's very strict when it comes to it's syntax, UnrealScript will go easier on you then). You can learn all the concepts about data types, classes, inheritance and OOP in general in Java.
                                IDEs like NetBeans are your friends because the extensive documentation for each class and it's functions is directly readable in the IntelliSense, making learning even easier.

                                And afterwards it's not that hard to get the UnrealScript's concept as well. Some things may even appear more logical and comfortable than Java, once you fully understand the concept why things are like they are.

                                You shouldn't care much for replication in the beginning, that would be unnecessarily confusing. It can be fixed up later if you are really going for an online game.

                                Thanks for the tips, i learned a little bit of java and yes it is annoyingly restrictive, and picky. More so than U script as you need to make sure you indent properly. Im also learning some C++ however, still its not something i can say i will ever be soo good at as i always try to visualize the way the code is working and sometimes its just as you say logical and not very visual.

                                Thanks :]

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