Scaleform UI to be included with UDK! (UPDATED)

[junkens]

well.. the formulation is a little bit off.
You would use flash to create games.
With scaleform you could implement them but a good thing is. The flash-dev community is booming since the last years(thanks to armorgames and some other flash-portal who are paying flash-devs good money for their games). So where is a chance that you just recruit a new uprising flash-dev and implement his/her games in the game.

[h3ndy]

how should people use the GFx if they own not even one Adobe product?
Will it be possible?

[junkens]

how should people use the GFx if they own not even one Adobe product?
Will it be possible?

what is that for a question. If you don't own flash..you can't use it. Canvas is still available so if you can't create it so you still can use the UI system which was used till now.

[elmuerte]

You don't need Adobe Flash, there are other tools available that will be able to create SWF files and allow you to compile ActionScript.
Of course most of them are not as "mature" as Adobe Flash.
But $700 for Adobe Flash Professional isn't that much.

See http://osflash.org/projects for an overview of various open source tools related to Flash.

[Blade[UG]]

Considering that the world at large is trying to kill off Flash (HTML 5, Apple, Microsoft, etc), I do question as to whether we'll see yet another complete re-write of the entire UI system in another year?

[Henrik]

I see it the opposite way. Many disagree strongly with Jobs anyway, and there are a ton of animators/designers who love the Flash app itself. It does many things easier than some other programs do. So even if Flash's use on the web deteriorated (which I don't really see happening to the degree these folks are trying to imply), Scaleform and its use in a game engine is not dependent on that at all. Are Adobe going to suddenly just kill off Flash because Apple is trying to say "HTML5 blah blah blah open technology blah blah".. pfft of course not, they will just push back and Scaleform is a significant thing to push with. Having Flash become the leading platform for creating UIs on the world's biggest games and engines is only going to make it even more ubiquitous and strengthen Adobe's position.

[elmuerte]

Going to HTML5+JavaScript from Flash is quite unrelated to the usage of Flash in GFx.

[Henrik]

That was my point as well:

So even if Flash's use on the web deteriorated (which I don't really see happening to the degree these folks are trying to imply), Scaleform and its use in a game engine is not dependent on that at all.

[Blade[UG]]

Sure, sure, it's not really related, in that it's an entirely different product, for different usage, just using the language. Sure, it's definitely going to be an improvement over the prior unreal engine UI systems, but I can't help but wonder if it's just going to be another subsystem that eventually gets tossed out, like the last 3 UIs..

[Hboybowen]

there is always the magic word...

[Henrik]

Technology improves. You have to keep up with it. Last 3 UI's? The main differences were between UE3 and UE2, Overall it stayed relatively steady over the course of what.. 10 years? The biggest change I think was UIScenes and that whole datastore system.. was very difficult for most people to figure out, especially given the lack of documentation. It was nothing familiar to anyone really. But I guess it's good that they tried something new. 10 years is a long time to stick to one system in the tech world. But Flash has done basically just that, because it is good.

Where could they theoretically go from here? Backwards only if they were to opt for something else - it would most certainly be more proprietary, unknown, and the number of skilled UI designers would drop to nearly nil. Have a hard time seeing it happening.

[Blade[UG]]

I would say that Flash has stuck around because it was the only way to do a lot of things on the web for quite some time, aside from Java, which had it's fair share of problems to begin with.. Personally, I'd much rather see something that is well integrated with Unrealscript, rather than jamming a new interface with a new language into it. But, that's just me. The UI system completely changed from UE1 to UE2 to UE3, and now a complete change again. Anyway, I expect we'll be good with this one for at least a year, so that's a good thing.

[ali rafaty]

yes.as westclif say.can we have trial version to make ui?

[MonsOlympus]

Yeah Blade[UG]'s got a point, most people leave out the little UE2->UE2.5 UI "upgrade" which wasnt so much of an upgrade but a rewrite of the older stuff that ran along side. It was a bigger mess then DataStores. The biggest problem DataStores have had is the lack of support from the commandlets, UPL, INI, INT n all that in 2kx could export those files from the default properties where in UE3 especially UT3 in the early days it was bugged to the ****house.

UIScenes, now Im finally getting into it and know enough about it isnt that bad. Its not exactly good either, I think half the problem is interaction/HUD/Canvas/UIScene are all interrelated but are different classes with different motives. Basically, theres already 2 or 3 systems all over the top of each other and they dont exactly all work together very well. The major issue I have with UIScenes has always been with automatically generating widgets based on variable types, this flash stuff "might" change that then again its always a possibility that it wont.

In saying that, Id like the engine to go oh he wants this variable (which is a boolean) on the UI, yeah sweet lets make it easier (so he doesnt have to define it 2, 3 times) and just whack some kind of UI connector (like tooltip meta data) there for "friendly" checkbox/spinner/etc display.

Ideally for a UI in a game, Id like my designers to be able to do their jobs entirely independent of programmers, I dont think that takes flash it does take a good set of widgets (which are in great demand, but hey adobe's interfaces rock (sorry apple ur not as brilliant as you think you are)) to build upon. As a designer, Id like to write as little code for UI's as possible, same goes for being a programmer. Its not that difficult, we use code generation all the time on the internet, for mobile display, removal of graphics, etc layout and functionality can be separated.

Nothing against scaleform, I have nothing against this move by Epic, its their choice. I dont think it was required though, it might take weight off Epic's shoulders and allow them to put development time where its needed most instead of into the UI but I dont think a great system was out of Epic's reach. While their UI systems always seem to be obsoleted all they needed was for one to be given a chance long enough, lets use flash as an example or java. Neither of those took 1 year or even 2, they took a long time to become a standard, using scaleform is going to help but Epic had the ability to pull off something that is in uscript better then using actionscript. The xml functionality of UE3 is still getting there isnt it?

Anyways just a few thoughts on the matter. All I see online is this big battle between this n that, yet very few people offering webapp/app creation IDE's deliver a decent set of widgets by default, they are all buggy, or set to standards you may not want to use. Im all for cohesive application interfaces, Im also for being able to customize my experience, advancements in clientside plugins such as greasemonkey or stylish... well I could go on all day. Basically, politics BLEH!

[elmuerte]

10 years is a long time to stick to one system in the tech world.

Not really. Most technologies used today are at least 10 years old. Often technology isn't considered usable until it hasn't reached the age of 5.

The UI system completely changed from UE1 to UE2 to UE3, and now a complete change again. Anyway, I expect we'll be good with this one for at least a year, so that's a good thing.

That's because user interfaces are very difficult to do right. As far as I know nobody has ever managed to create a proper user interface.

If you give me six screens created by the hand of the most experienced of UI designers, I will find something in them which will hang him.