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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gr00veh0lmes View Post
    I'm sorry swordmaster, but you are wrong about this. Totally wrong.
    or you are ... either way that's fine with me; I won't change my style ... you dodge and I parry.

  2. #42
    Deathless
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordmaster View Post
    I won't change my style
    (sigh), no you probably won't, and that is a damn shame. Pob hwyl SM, Pob hwyl.
    Pantheon

    True Jedi

  3. #43

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    There's no point arguing,
    They aren't gonna release the precise detail,
    We're left only to guess.

    IB is not a game with much depth
    They know it'll break very quickly when we have figures to math it out.

  4. #44

    Default

    This thread does not intend to force someone to change the style. This is a personal decision. It's about effective defense when using dual.

    Yes, many things remain still unclear, but we already have pretty exact math, you may find it in OP.

    @swordmaster
    Like with parry, there are two types of devils, actually: one - in details (as you mentioned), other - in people

    No parry can ever give you 11 hit window if you do combos. Max what you will get is a 7 hit window (if you won't jam - known bug after stab session). But parry breaks are all time-bound, it means that you can do more than 7 single hits, but the damage will be the same as with 7 comboed hits or less.

    Now, can you do damage by stab circles equaled to 4 huge hits (4 combos = 8 simple hits, 3 stabs approx = 1 simple hit)? I know that devil personally - it's currently impossible to make 24 stabs per stab session. Not saying about how often you get circles.

    Read the analysis summary in the OP about overall effective strategy. No one says you must dodge all the way or parry everything. Just leave the final hit for dodge and enjoy
    Last edited by =Silver=; 03-14-2012 at 02:31 AM.
    "Skillbuilding as a lifestyle"
    The God King Club ID#1|Ultimate GK Slayer |True Jedi |
    NG Code follower
    =Dual Guide=

  5. #45
    Iron Guard
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    Lol. Don't argue with math. It's like me saying 1+1=3 bc I like the number 3 better than 2.
    WA NI CHI ???

  6. #46
    Redeemer
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    Quote Originally Posted by =Silver= View Post
    Dual: Dodge vs Parry

    Well, it seems overall parry became less rewarding in IB2, than in IB1 when using dual style. Moreover, it's less effective than dodge. Here and everywhere in this post we suppose Titan Break gem equipped.

    Parry pros=======

    1. Quicker than dodge.
    Especially in hit series, cause it breaks the trajectory of hits in combos thus pausing it and gaining some time for next hit

    2. Breaks the stepback combos.
    You may stop big and deadly combos with just one right parry

    3. Stab opportunities.
    Well, I don't know exactly whether it's a pro or cons, it depends on many factors, analysis is below.

    There are two types of stab opportunities in dual:

    3.1. Parry reward.
    It goes at the end of the combos or if you interrupt it with the parry, after it you get multiple circles going one after another. More circles you get with Break gem equipped. There could be circles appearing in parallel (not consecutive), but I'm not sure if it's not a glitch. After it you get automatic stab session followed by a time-bound attack window. And this is not good as we know, because they can be either 7 or more rare 9 hits (x-x-2x-2x-2x-2x-3x or x-x-2x-2x-2x-2x-2x-2x-3x). Another bug with these type of circles - is a much worse registering of gestures after the stab session. I personally don't like it cause in average you do more damage with simple hit-bound window which is 9 to 11 hits. Even if you get 9 hit window which is more often in hit-bound windows you do equal or more damage than stabs + usual 7 hits (not saying about bad register problems): 4x ~ nx/3. So, if you make more than n=12 stabs in a stab session and make no mistakes after it, you make a little bit more damage, but comparing to 11 hit window (which is not so rare as 9 hit in time-bound window), it's a loose.

    3.2. Interrupting circle.
    This is a single stab opportunity which interrupts a stepback (taken from IB1). Pros is that you can interrupt the combo. Cons - is that you have only 4 hit window to make a simple huge combo. The rule here is: if you are sure you may counter the combo without using this stab DON'T EVER TOUCH THE CIRCLE, and instead of 4 hit window you may get 11 hit one. Beware of a worse trap: sometimes you may get that type of circles at the end of the combo - be sure not to touch it incidentally.

    4. Sure break
    Parrying the stepback moves gives you a 100% break, while dodging - not. Though if it does - it is a longer window. So, you may get just a "scratch pause" instead of "attack window", following by new attack set. I personally had four conscecutive attack sets from Fel Siren (ab 1200 lvl) going one after another, each finishing with a stepback combo (which I dodged). Only fifth attack gave me the window, but since I've mistaken once it was a 9 hit window, not 11. If I parried, I'd have the break after the very first attack set, but it'd be not more than a 7 hit window

    Parry cons=======

    1. Shorter attack windows.
    All parry breaks are time-bound. So, they usually 5 hit windows, and more rare - if you interrupted a stepback combo, it may be a 7 hit window. If you do a perfect parry (and sometimes great) you get a stab opportunities, which can overcompensate the lack of two huges. Read p. 3 above about it.

    2. Tap wars.
    They are more rare and less random in IB2 comparing to IB1. Now it's more clear, that they are more often when you are too early, or too late with the parry. The rest is the same: first war you can win easily with one finger, second - is not easy with four, third - almost impossible to win. Remember, that damage of lost war hit is the double of the hit you you jammed. It's impossible to quit the tap war if it started. The best tactics here - is not to allow second or third tap war: don't parry the last hits - dodge, or be careful with parry timings.

    Here is also the same bug as with "parry reward circles" - bad touch registering after stab session or tap war (thanks groove for reminding this).

    3. Clash wars.
    The main reason of clash wars is wrong timing/direction. The result is normal or broken parry with 2 to 5 supplementary quick consecutive slashes in random directions. There are two major tactic ways:

    3.1. Continue parrying.
    You will end up with a parry break if you successfully parry all consecutive hits. Missed hit will have normal damage and finish the clash war.

    3.2. Dodge.
    First dodge will quit the clash war. Note, it may be ANY dodge (side/crouch) notwithstanding the direction of the hit.

    Overall strategy: use any dodge if you engaged in a clash war. There are no any reward in IB2 for continuing it except fun (in IB1 you could get longer attack window, esp. when you were hit during a combo, otherwise you allowed only one hit). All the more dodge breaks are longer.
    You have to use dodge if one of the parries happened broken. Parrying is impossible here.

    Dodge pros=======

    1. Longer attack windows.
    Dodge breaks are hit-bound breaks it means, that you can do up to 11 hits, having in mind following dependencies (need more empirical evidence):

    - simple single attack, random hits, no stepbacks, not many hits (2-5). This leads to a 7-hit window. Max damage here is x-x-2x-2x-2x-2x-3x (13 hit damage)

    - Medium sized attacks, with one stepback. This leads to a 9-hit attack window - most common for dodge break. Max damage here is x-x-2x-2x-2x-2x-2x-2x-3x (17 hit damage)

    - Long sized or composed (two attacks, e.g. when your attack failed) attacks with multiple stepbacks. Higher probability with wretch-class and bosses). It makes possible 11 hit windows. Max damage here is x-x-2x-2x-2x-2x-2x-2x-2x-2x-3x (21 hit damage).

    2. Faster when dizzy.
    If you've been hit, or had your parry broken, don't ever try to parry next quick hit - dodge. For more information on "Dizziness" and how to deal with it effectively see the Dual: Dizzy Issue thread

    Dodge cons=======

    1. Limited number of dodges.
    If you fall on dodges very much you can get exhausted dodge. Each exhausted dodge will drain your HP. I didn't check it out, but the number on your armor with "running man" means the quantity of dodges in one enemy attack window before you get exhausted. So, insert parries, and save dodges for final hits, or hits with hard timing.

    Thanks to ckd0214, he had more evidence on resetting the remaining dodge number to full after each break

    2. "Slow Motion Bug".
    Thanks Groove, Dknowle

    "I'll tap dodge, not holding it down. Then what happens next seems like its in slow motion. The animation shows me slowly recovering from the dodge, while the enemy recovers from the dodge break. I'll then try to strike, but it will get blocked".
    Good thing is that it's not very often. Possible reasons: too late last dodge, game bug rendering wrong animation.


    Overall effective strategy: try to save the last hit before the break window for dodge.
    I completely agree
    School is under IB on my priorities list Not even using the restroom is above IB!!!!
    There's no such thing as getting hit There's only parrying, dodging, blocking with a shield, blocking with a heavy weapon, and blocking with your face
    Quote Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
    Fun... yes, that word seems to describe alot of things haha. Fun goldfarming, fun "throwing out iphone through the window"...
    Follower of the NG code. link

  7. #47
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    An interesting bump. Is this even in the UTL?
    oLd ScHoOl
    27 . 15 . 23

  8. #48
    Deathless Horror

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    Quote Originally Posted by grantnoe View Post
    An interesting bump. Is this even in the UTL?
    Just went and check the IB2 section of UTL, I don't think this thread is in the UTL

  9. #49
    Redeemer
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    Default Dual: Dodge vs Parry

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverblade5 View Post
    I completely agree
    You have been reviving quite some old threads there bud

    It's cool to see conversations from back in the day (a year or two ago)
    "The main attraction is about to start." ~Therin

    Therin-Lelindre Alliance ID#1B


 

 
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