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  1. #1
    Redeemer
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    Post NG FAQ and pros/cons of both NG and OG

    This post needs a lot of work. Please wait about a week and I will rewrite it based on how the discussion turns out.

    Useful Links

    IB2:



    IB1:


    New Game+ (NG)

    NG pros

    • Guaranteed infinite gameplay (agree: bladet, silversabeast, darth)

      • "It gets easier with each increment since player strength grows faster than enemy strength" (bladet, ericmurphy, darth)

    • You can "load last rebirth" to go back to the last NG if you are stuck—particularly on the shade. (fact)
    • Very hard for the first few NGs (agree: bladet, silversabeast, darth)

      • "Some may consider this a con because it can get too hard, but no one disagrees with this point. Joining NG sooner than later will amplify this difficulty" (bladet, silversabeast, darth)

    • Fighting the Shade without a resistance gem is hardcore (agree: bladet, silversabeast, darth)

      • "You start against the Shade with a light weapon, and while all of its moves are blockable with a resistance gem, you don't get one so it will break through each block with its elemental damage." (bladet, silversabeast, darth)

    • You get an Anarachax. This is the best heavy weapon. - (agree: everyone)


    NG cons



    You can't fight any given boss more than once in the same NG round. (agree: everyone)
    [LEFT]
    • There is a strong pressure to make IAPs due to pressure in the early NGs. (agree: everyone)
    • Standardized god-king level challenges become obsolete without a ratio of GK level divided by personal level (agree: bladet, silversabeast, =Silver=, darth)
      • "Saying that you killed a certain level GK in NG doesn't mean anything without a ratio indicating difficulty since your level rises along with the GK in NG." (bladet, silversabeast, =Silver=)

    • NG is extremely time-consuming, which doesn't work well if you only have a limited amount of time to play the game (silversabeast, darth) (disagree?: bladet) < In need of being reworded, please offer suggestion.
      • "The infinite gameplay and sheer amount of time for the remastery process make NG a bottomless time sink" (silversabeast, darth)

    • [bug] The level cap is 604, dropping you back down to level 123 if you hit it. (agree: bladet, silversabeast, ruggedland, leandro)
    • All locked items exclusive to NG are worthless except for Anarchax (agree: everyone)



    Original Game (OG)

    OG pros

    • In the long term, OG is far more difficult than NG. (agree: silversabeast, bladet, Harry-Son, =Silver=, darth)
      • "If killing a new Raidriar every 5 levels, then on average the Titans only go up 5 levels per rebirth while Thane and Raidriar go up 20 levels per rebirth." (silversabeast, darth)

    • You can "load last rebirth" as many times as you want to lower or maintain Titan levels. (fact)
    • You can kill a new boss every rebirth. (fact)
    • After a certain point when most of your gems are near-capped, the relative difficulty level only increases, forcing your only asset to be newfound skills. (agree: everyone)
    • God-king level challenges are automatically standardized and there is no need for ratios if on an OG campaign. (agree: silversabeast, =Silver=, bladet, darth)
    • The bosses get tough after about level 4,000—and that's each boss not just the GK. (agree: silversabeast, darth)
      • "This is a pro because using restore points, you can go back to any level boss you want. And if you have a jailbroken device, then you don't even need to be near a computer; instead you can use iFile" (silversabeast, bladet, darth)

    • Entering very high rebirths will cause attack speeds to increase, although it is not yet clear whether this is gradual or in tiers. (agree: silversabeast, bladet, darth) (highly skeptical: =Silver=).


    OG cons

    • The Titans level too slow. (agree: silversabeast, bladet, darth)
      • "If killing a new Raidriar every 5 levels, then on average the Titans only go up 5 levels per rebirth while Thane and Raidriar go up 20 levels per rebirth. This means that the Titans will never catch up to the bosses level, and the gap between them will only widen." (silversabeast, darth)

    • [bug] The square gems in heavy weapons break at some point, although magically repair themselves back at some point (agree: bladet, darth)
    • [bug] The money cap is 95 million, dropping you back down to 45 million if you hit it. (fact)
    • At some point you will become stuck and unable to progress since you do not level along with the Titans. But arguably this can always be remedied with some training sessions against bosses where you force your native skills to increase (agree: silversabeast, darth)
    • No Anarchax (fact)






    comments:



    Many new members come here asking questions without reading the forums (who can blame them really, there's quite a lot). But since they usually ask the same questions over and over again, particularly "Why should I play OG or NG?", I think it would be nice to be able to link them to a thread rather than repeat the same points, which is unfair and tedious to our frequent forum-goers. it's not a secret that I have bias toward OG, so if anyone can find a way to make any points in here more clear-cut and objective then please speak up. Otherwise, I will try my hardest to remain neutrality.

    I will begin by adding a pro for OG by saying that it is more difficult. I will state my reason up front: I have spent a lot of times reading the forums and the only reason I have come across stating that that NG is the most difficult is that "OG is for noobs", which is a circular argument. Note that what is a pro for one person may be a con for another; for example, someone might prefer more relaxed gameplay, in which higher difficulty would be a con and not a pro.

    Please add to the list, stating which game path you are referring to and whether it is a pro or con. Also, if I add your name to the list because I saw your point in a different thread, and you feel that I am misrepresenting you, please tell me and I will change your point/reason or remove your name.
    Contradictions on this chart will be acceptable since the conflicting points will be tagged by supporting members. For example, there might be 7 people supporting the claim that one is more difficult and therefore a pro, and 2 people saying that the other is more difficult and therefore a pro. Readers can judge for themselves based on the quantity of votes and the quality of reasons provided.

    If you are making a controversial point, then please provide a reason so that it can be inserted on the list. If you see a point that you support, say so and your name will be tagged either in support or opposition to that point.


    As I see "new" questions being asked I will add them to this list, please feel free to chip in to this:


    NG FAQ
    • How do I start NG?
      • After killing Raidrair, it will appear in your character slots assuming you have the most recent update of the game from the app store.

    • I entered NG and I don't have any money or items. Is that supposed to happen?
      • Yes

    • NG^1 is too hard! How do I try again?
      • From within NG, reset to rebirth 1, then you can delete that game slot. Assuming you have the most recent update from the app store, you will get a new NG slot in your character slots after killing Raidriar again.

    • I killed Raidriar once but don't want to go to NG yet. What if I kill him again to level up more?
      • Then you NG slot will rise in level too assuming you never hit the green "PLAY" button, in which case your NG progress will be locked.

    • What equipment should I go for in NG?
      • Grinder weapons will give you lots of cheap XP, which becomes increasingly easy to exploit as your NG level rises since you get a higher attack. You will also want to get your hands on a Shield Halo and then an Atomic Loop as soon as you can. As for easy kills, save up for a granite hammer and then an easy stone (awesome heavy weapons).

    • Should I buy keys?
      • You should keep your small keys at 4/5, medium at 4/5, and large at 5/5 as soon as possible. Open every chest you can and keep your keys filled up like this. Buying them early is the literally the key to making money.

    • When should I go onto the next NG?
      • Be extremely careful before entering the first few NGs, leveling up as much as you can. After that, you will be able to have streaks where you hardly have to level anything at all to progress. But if you jump the gun in the early NG stages then you can get stuck on the Shade and be forced into IAPs unless—
      • Quote Originally Posted by Laughzxc View Post
        You can always choose "load last rebirth" to jump back to the previous NG, where you have defeated the all the intro titans with less base stats. So you must be able to do it again.


        And if you do that, you can actually master the "next" level of items (e.g. NG^5 and choose "load last rebirth", you will go back to NG^4. But you will be able to master all items 5 times). This should save you from buying IAPs if intro titans are too hard.

    Last edited by Flak; 02-20-2012 at 10:17 AM.
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  2. #2
    Saburai

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    someone sticky this!

    also add my agreement to about every single one of those

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silversabeast View Post
    also add my agreement to about every single one of those
    Ok lol, tell me if you want one taken down, I will sign you up for each point/reason minus the square gem bug with heavy weapons (assuming you have not experienced that).
    Last edited by DarthDuck; 01-10-2012 at 09:46 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    Ok lol, tell me if you want one taken down, I will sign you up for each point/reason.
    yep ii agree to every single one otf these

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    NG is extremely time-consuming, which doesn't work well if you only have a limited amount of time to play the game (agree: silversabeast, darth)
    only question I have is re this. in what way is NG more time-consuming than OG? the amount of rebirths to face the same titan lvl is roughly the same; titan lvl 1330 in NG lvl 604, which I guess would amount to ca 300 rebirths - the same goes for OG. the time consuming elements in NG is remastering items (and hence also cash) while it is longer fights in OG (since one doesn't gain in stats).

    both paths lead to the castle, with the same titans/gods. the question is whether one want to make that journey through longer fights or by searching for items/cash. the prize for taking the first route is higher stats while the latter rewards the player with harder fights.

    edit: I do realise that in theory NG is infinitive while OG seem to be finitive, ie at some point it will get to hard. but as long as one would learn all moves by all opponents and never be hit OG would be infinitive too. (as long as there are no caps, as now with lvl 604 in NG, which I presume they will sort in an update.)

    I agree with everything else in NG pros and cons; maybe this one as well if you can explain to me why this is the case.

    as always a great initiative and most welcome, think this will give many ppl more value for their money spent buying the game and the time invested getting to know it. cheers!
    Last edited by BLADET; 01-10-2012 at 11:03 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Apologies in advance if I express my bias but I will try to answer this as accurately as I can,

    Bladet: "In what way is NG more time-consuming than OG?"


    I'm not aware of anyone who's further in OG than either one of us, and that's out of 800k players. Meanwhile, you once mentioned to me that you have minimal time to play this game "sometimes you do 10 rebirths in a day, sometimes you do one". I also have very little time to play so I try to make that time count when I can.

    I have easily spent more solid time collaborating on the forums than I have playing the actual game (I have enjoyed that though.) Yesterday I only got through a half a rebirth, and I still haven't even finished that same rebirth today even though it's late-afternoon here in Hawaii. And just as a datapoint, not saying that I am any more skilled than anyone else, but I don't think anyone in the world (playing OG) is remotely near my current GK level. I have no doubt that once more time has passed that plenty will surpass me and prove to be more skilled (coming from the tetris community I'm used to being in the bottom tier of skill), my point is just that I'm currently able to claim the highest OG GK level in the world despite being able to apply a very limited amount of time.

    In contrast, consider trying to get to the top in NG. Even if you had IAPs, trying to outgrind Leandro will never happen unless you have 15 hours a day at your disposal. You likely will not pass Ruggedland either (who has very impressive progress by the way). With these examples it should be easy to see how much more sheer time it would take to climb the NG ladder. And without IAPs that might even be impossible even if you made it your life's work.

    Note that this is not a slander at all on NG. I once had a lot of time to play games but not so much anymore. I'm just trying to be descriptive about the experience of playing NG—you can play as much as you want but it will always feel like you could have put in more time. With OG however, once you make the initial grind and get to a point of resistance, then you can play as much as you want (or as little) and it's all the same. One last small point is that with NG there are periods in every cycle which are not challenging at all (perhaps once you get that momentum in the mastery process). But past the point of resistance in OG, say rebirth 250+ with near-perfect gems and a GK level of 4,000+, you don't have lulls (or spikes) anymore in difficulty. It's always hard and you don't have to put in blocks of time to get the next difficult phase. One last point is that the length of time between boss fights in NG seems longer since you don't always get to fight a boss and that point alone seems to be enough to show that it feels like you need to spend more time to play NG.



    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussi3 View Post
    it's just that NG might feel like more of a time consumer
    Yes I was just trying to describe the experience of playing and how it feels like you need to put in more time (to keep up).
    Last edited by DarthDuck; 01-10-2012 at 11:34 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    Apologies in advance if I express my bias but I will try to answer this as accurately as I can,

    Bladet: "In what way is NG more time-consuming than OG?"


    I'm not aware of anyone who's further in OG than either one of us, and that's out of 800k players. Meanwhile, you once mentioned to me that you have minimal time to play this game "sometimes you do 10 rebirths in a day, sometimes you do one". I also have very little time to play so I try to make that time count when I can.

    I have easily spent more solid time collaborating on the forums than I have playing the actual game (I have enjoyed that though.) Yesterday I only got through a half a rebirth, and I still haven't even finished that same rebirth today even though it's late-afternoon here in Hawaii. And just as a datapoint, not saying that I am any more skilled than anyone else, but I don't think anyone in the world (playing OG) is remotely near my current GK level. I have no doubt that once more time has passed that plenty will surpass me and prove to be more skilled (coming from the tetris community I'm used to being in the bottom tier of skill), my point is just that I'm currently able to claim the highest OG GK level in the world despite being able to apply a very limited amount of time.

    In contrast, consider trying to get to the top in NG. Even if you had IAPs, trying to outgrind Leandro will never happen unless you have 15 hours a day at your disposal. You likely will not pass Ruggedland either (who has very impressive progress by the way). With these examples it should be easy to see how much more sheer time it would take to climb the NG ladder. And without IAPs that might even be impossible even if you made it your life's work.

    Note that this is not a slander at all on NG. I once had a lot of time to play games but not so much anymore. I'm just trying to be descriptive about the experience of playing NG—you can play as much as you want but it will always feel like you could have put in more time. With OG however, once you make the initial grind and get to a point of resistance, then you can play as much as you want (or as little) and it's all the same. One last small point is that with NG there are periods in every cycle which are not challenging at all (perhaps once you get that momentum in the mastery process). But past the point of resistance in OG, say rebirth 250+ with near-perfect gems and a GK level of 4,000+, you don't have lulls (or spikes) anymore in difficulty. It's always hard and you don't have to put in blocks of time to get the next difficult phase. One last point is that the length of time between boss fights in NG since you don't always get to fight a boss and that point alone seems to be enough to show that it feels like you need to spend more time to play NG.
    I think it would feel like a more time consuming task taking on NG, But if you had a player that spends 15hr's a day in OG then a player that spends 15hr's a day in NG+ their both as time consuming as each other it's just that NG might feel like more of a time consumer because you have longer between boss fights if you take a high RB to master more items or if you stay on NG to gain a few levels or do some gem hunting and stuff like that.

    Nice thread by the way it will be helpful for new players and maybe old to help make their decision
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    I'm currently able to claim the highest OG GK level in the world despite being able to apply a very limited amount of time... In contrast, consider trying to get to the top in NG. Even if you had IAPs, trying to outgrind Leandro will never happen unless you have 15 hours a day at your disposal. You likely will not pass Ruggedland either (who has very impressive progress by the way). With these examples it should be easy to see how much more sheer time it would take to climb the NG ladder.
    what you say is true, but that doesn't mean OG per se is less time consuming than NG. it just means people - and probably more people - have spent more time playing NG and hence that it's harder to reach "the top" in NG. when/if ppl who have time to play 15 hours a day chose to play in OG they will race ahead of us quickly.
    Last edited by BLADET; 01-11-2012 at 12:30 AM.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    But if you jump the gun in the early NG stages then you can get stuck on the Shade and be forced into IAPs.
    You can always choose "load last rebirth" to jump back to the previous NG, where you have defeated the all the intro titans with less base stats. So you must be able to do it again.

    And if you do that, you can actually master the "next" level of items (e.g. NG^5 and choose "load last rebirth", you will go back to NG^4. But you will be able to master all items 5 times). This should save you from buying IAPs if intro titans are too hard.

  10. #10
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    Thanks I will add that point as a pro to NG. I will also add the parallel pro for OG that you can take a step back in the rebirths.

    Edit: I will think about what you said Bladet. Maybe you can help me reword that point?
    Last edited by DarthDuck; 01-11-2012 at 12:26 AM.
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  11. #11
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    You could just add time consuming as a con to OG as well because it's just as time consuming as NG depends what the person chooses and what they decide they want to achieve
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussi3 View Post
    You could just add time consuming as a con to OG as well because it's just as time consuming as NG depends what the person chooses and what they decide they want to achieve
    Absolutely. OG is arguably much worse (in terms of being too easy) for at least the first month if you consider your play casual at all. I just reverted to rebirth 76 today because I wanted to try my earliest recorded save point and it was so easy (with with I had, slow movement speed, gems etc) that I doubt NG would get that easy until NG^10 or NG^15.

    Another OG con, but I think I covered it below, is that unfortunately even a rebirth 217 I know I'm not going to be getting official resistance until at least rb 300 because the bosses are 3000 while the enemies are barely over 1000 (they all ding 1000 in rb 201). At 300 they will only be 1500. Since I can beat the bosses in the 3000s with not much more than a couple or few tries each, I know at rb 800 when the titans are about level 4,000 that I will be able to kill them at least a third of the time. I would still presumable be able to kill them at least a third of the time based on my relative track record with the bosses. Rebirth 800 is a serious grind! But my hope is that at least at some point, say rb 1500, that "loading last rebirth" might actually be an option of interest.

    Then again your bosses would also be higher, raising your personal native skill "points" at a faster rate from fighting higher profile bosses, and therefore still not at the plataeu you were after. Meaning that like NG (assuming they fix the level 604 bug), OG never really ends either. And like Bladet was saying, all we need is a few motivated individuals to set their sights on these 1500ish limits and they will easily be there while the both of us are still testing the waters in rb 800.
    Last edited by DarthDuck; 01-11-2012 at 03:54 AM.
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  13. #13

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    Good and solid approach, Darth

    Emotions is a strong and most ancient regulator of human behavior, but we have to control and train them to use it along with its nature. All the more, the power of persuasion needs two more forces apart from "pathos", they are "logos" (mind, logic) and "ethos" (moral aspect). Missing logos is a catastrophe, "dreaming mind gives birth to monsters" (c) So

    1. NG pros
    I agree with 1, 3 and 4 (simply because I was the first or one of, who said that). The rest are just hard facts

    2. NG cons
    Agree with 1 and 2, again being the author. And 3 needs some history insight. Speaking of NG from the skills POV I said once that the only skill you can show in NG is that you have the skill to play 24 hrs a day or to buy IAP. It was a kind joke, "containing some truth", meaning that since NG is not skills bound now, it may be limited just to how much time you have to play. It was just the demonstration of different, but equally respectable approaches to IB2: "skills testing" (OG) and "leveling" (NG). So, it doesn't mean that it takes more time in NG, it just mean that your progress in OG is limited by skills, while your progress in NG is limited just by the time you have.

    3. OG pros
    Agree with 1, 4 and 5.
    2 and 3 - hard facts

    6 - not sure. Difficulty leap may depend on your fighting style. Example from IB1. If you climbed up using blocks against GK's stepbacks, your limit was 8000 lvl GK. After that follows a great leap in difficulty, cause you can't block anymore, you must parry stepbacks and this is a great new skill. That's why I climb slow, but using dual weapons and "pure crack" strategy. I suppose then there won't be any difficulty leaps to infinity

    7 - not sure. I counted 2 speed tiers for now. Got to go to 200 RB to check

    4. OG cons
    1 - ok. Though their leveling is faster than in IB1, it could be even more fast. But it's ok as is too
    2, 3 and 5 - hard facts
    4 - is the essence of OG gameplay, it can't be a con, it's pro
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  14. #14
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    Thanks Silver. It will take me a while to process all that and I am in the middle of writing something else right now. But I will mix it in the lists later.


    Edit: But one thing I want to say is that pros and cons are usually completely relative. The same exact brute fact is a con to one person while a pro to another. That's why I was encouraging contradictions on the list.


    Edit2, and I'm not trolling I really am asking, do you see any moral aspects here? (I don't think IAPs or resetting to rebirth 1 in OG should count as dimensions for that question.)
    Last edited by DarthDuck; 01-11-2012 at 04:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    Edit2, and I'm not trolling I really am asking, do you see any moral aspects here? (I don't think IAPs or resetting to rebirth 1 in OG should count as dimensions for that question.)
    They may refer to content and/or to form

    The "content ethos" refers to hacking numbers and GC, the rules of skills contests, other norms etc.

    The "form ethos" is respecting other approaches and so
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  16. #16
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    I meant to ask, will someone make an OG FAQ please and I will just quote the whole thing? I don't want to write one since I have trouble thinking clearly on the issue considering my favoritism with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    Edit: I will think about what you said Bladet. Maybe you can help me reword that point?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    I'm just trying to be descriptive about the experience of playing NG—you can play as much as you want but it will always feel like you could have put in more time. With OG however, once you make the initial grind and get to a point of resistance, then you can play as much as you want (or as little) and it's all the same. One last small point is that with NG there are periods in every cycle which are not challenging at all (perhaps once you get that momentum in the mastery process). But past the point of resistance in OG, say rebirth 250+ with near-perfect gems and a GK level of 4,000+, you don't have lulls (or spikes) anymore in difficulty. It's always hard and you don't have to put in blocks of time to get the next difficult phase. One last point is that the length of time between boss fights in NG seems longer since you don't always get to fight a boss and that point alone seems to be enough to show that it feels like you need to spend more time to play NG.

    Edit:
    Yes I was just trying to describe the experience of playing and how it feels like you need to put in more time (to keep up).
    based on my understand of what you've written I get the feeling what you try to express here is first an experience (qualia) of how it is to play NG. I think this is best left to each individual player to decide and hence either a pro or con of any particular game play. second tho, beneath this, we have the fact that the difficulty constantly get higher in OG while it's choppy in NG. but even this, according to me, is neither a pro or a con, it's just a matter of what one prefers and how one wants to play the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by =Silver= View Post
    The "form ethos" is respecting other approaches and so
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    +1 to this being a virtue.
    this leads me think it might be better to form the thread so it lists differences in game play in OG/NG and facts/known bugs rather than pros and cons. in that way it would give each player a guidence as to what to expect but leave the decision if this is good or bad, a pro or a con, to each and everyone.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLADET View Post
    I think this is best left to each individual player to decide and hence either a pro or con of any particular game play. second tho, beneath this, we have the fact that the difficulty constantly get higher in OG while it's choppy in NG. but even this, according to me, is neither a pro or a con, it's just a matter of what one prefers and how one wants to play the game.

    this leads me think it might be better to form the thread so it lists differences in game play in OG/NG and facts/known bugs rather than pros and cons. in that way it would give each player a guidence as to what to expect but leave the decision if this is good or bad, a pro or a con, to each and everyone.
    I will keep an open mind to major layout changes, and assure you that at least minor ones will take place, but like I was saying below pros and cons are relative. Some consider needing to fight the Shade 10x because of lack of elemental resistance a con while others a pro. Doesn't tagging each pro or con with their associated supporters and contenders, as well as allowing room for contradiction, address any concerns you are raising?

    And currently, facts are mixed in with the opinions where it's appropriate to call it a fact. Let me know if you see something that is arguable factual and then I can write (fact) instead of (agree: ...).

    I am aware that the OP needs a lot of work and I assure you that I will fix it up and continue to work on it, I'm just a bit preoccupied right now and also intimidated by the depth and scope of the feedback so far. What you currently see below is just a rough outline. Please keep up the solid feedback and (to whomever) please let us know if you are drafting an OG FAQ so that we can avoid duplicate projects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    NG FAQ
    • Should I buy keys?
      • You should keep your small keys at 4/5, medium at 4/5, and large at 5/5 as soon as possible. Open every chest you can and keep your keys filled up like this. Buying them early is the literally the key to making money.
    in OG this is a good tip, but is this something one want to do in NG? wouldn't it be better to just buy weapons? I do realise it makes it easier to master every item, since it will drop unlocked items, but that isn't necessary in NG. one can just master what one find and move on, and then when one do find the item master it several times later?

    just want to make it clear I'm not criticizing the thread, it's a great initiative. just trying to help out, to make it appeal to everybody. (know you already know this Darth, just want to make it clear.) cheers!
    Last edited by BLADET; 01-11-2012 at 06:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLADET View Post
    just want to make it clear I'm not criticizing the thread... just trying to help out, to make it appeal to everybody. cheers!
    I cannot weed the bias out of that OP on my own; I need active help with that. It's the same with criticism because it's hard to read over your own work and see mistakes. I have absolutely no egotistical attachments to anything I wrote below. Although I'm trying to give credit where due, it doesn't matter to me who said or came up with with as long as the right info is there (and well presented). I can't do that alone and need all the criticism and input I can get. So far all input has been gold and I haven't seen any "Option A is bad because option A is for noobs" yet and have been pleased (although also overwhelmed) with the feedback so far. I assure you that no matter how behind on this I get, that every single point (even ninja-edited in at a later time) will be heavily considered and somehow mixed in once I see a way.
    Last edited by DarthDuck; 01-11-2012 at 06:22 PM.
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    *NG is extremely time-consuming, which doesn't work well if you only have a limited amount of time to play the game (silversabeast, darth) (disagree?: bladet) < In need of being reworded, please offer suggestion.
    "The infinite gameplay and sheer amount of time for the remastery process make NG a bottomless time sink" (silversabeast, darth)*

    Ok, I have to disagree with this. After all, what about NG makes it more of a sink than OG? Since this is (mostly) a single player game, you can play as much as you want. 5 rebirths in NG doesn't take any longer than 5 rebirths in OG, after all. Personally, I've been caught up with school work so I've done 2 rebirths in as many weeks and that's been fine (it's not like my game has disappeared).


    *After a certain point when most of your gems are near-capped, the relative difficulty level only increases, forcing your only asset to be newfound skills. (agree: everyone)*

    Yeah, this is true, but it's not only true in OG. If at any point you want to park your character on a NG+ (I'm staying at NG10), you can do that. Admittedly you can't face the deathless, but that's not nearly all the fun in the game. This means that eventually, your level will cap off and the game will start getting harder, all while you can enjoy the benefits of leveling, more skill points, and mastering new items.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Name View Post
    *NG is extremely time-consuming, which doesn't work well if you only have a limited amount of time to play the game (silversabeast, darth) (disagree?: bladet) < In need of being reworded, please offer suggestion.
    "The infinite gameplay and sheer amount of time for the remastery process make NG a bottomless time sink" (silversabeast, darth)*

    Ok, I have to disagree with this. After all, what about NG makes it more of a sink than OG? Since this is (mostly) a single player game, you can play as much as you want. 5 rebirths in NG doesn't take any longer than 5 rebirths in OG, after all. Personally, I've been caught up with school work so I've done 2 rebirths in as many weeks and that's been fine (it's not like my game has disappeared).


    *After a certain point when most of your gems are near-capped, the relative difficulty level only increases, forcing your only asset to be newfound skills. (agree: everyone)*

    Yeah, this is true, but it's not only true in OG. If at any point you want to park your character on a NG+ (I'm staying at NG10), you can do that. Admittedly you can't face the deathless, but that's not nearly all the fun in the game. This means that eventually, your level will cap off and the game will start getting harder, all while you can enjoy the benefits of leveling, more skill points, and mastering new items.
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    I know there's disagreement on the time sink thing but can anyone think of a different way to phrase a more accurate point in that spot?

    Edit: even if you disagree with the point, can you think of a better way to phrase it? I can always tag you as being in disagreement with it even if you came up with it.
    Last edited by DarthDuck; 01-11-2012 at 07:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    I know there's disagreement on the time sink thing but can anyone think of a different way to phrase a more accurate point in that spot?
    based on your response, several. something like this?

    • The difficulty within each NG is diminishing
      • Might lead to a feeling that you don't make any progress
      • Is time consuming to play through a particular NG to get the feeling you're facing more difficult opponents (since you need to start over, find and remaster each item again)
    • Hard to reach top-tier of players since most have chosen to level up rather than getting deep in OG or one particular NG


    edit: feel free to re-write them, I know my English grammar isn't the best - at least that's what my Scottish gf tells me :P
    Last edited by BLADET; 01-11-2012 at 08:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLADET View Post
    • The difficulty within each NG is diminishing
    This is an important point so where does everyone stand on it, agree or disagree?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    This is an important point so where does everyone stand on it, agree or disagree?
    Beg to differ. Maybe when it comes to GK fight, but not with all the other titans, and certainly not with Shade. Like Name, I don't see why 5RBs per GK fight in NG is more time-consuming than 5RBs per GK fight with OG, unless one like to accumulate many items and play with different gems.

    How about this: "One can only fight GK once per NG. If you want to fight higher-level GK, you have to advance to next NG and lose all your gold/equipment/gems. If a player likes to experiment with different weapons, gems, and other items, it will take longer to earn them back after starting a new NG".

    Also I know you touched on it in the last con for OG, but I'd put a separate bullet that simply says "Your level is capped at 81 in OG and it's impossible to level up after that since all items are fully mastered, rendering all XP gained from fight meaningless".
    Last edited by ruggedland; 01-11-2012 at 09:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruggedland View Post
    Beg to differ. Maybe when it comes to GK fight, but not with all the other titans...
    so in your experience it's just as "easy" to fight Shade (with the cheapest items) as it is fighting titans 30 rebirths in with top gear even tho the titans have gained only minor in level?

    Quote Originally Posted by ruggedland View Post
    Also I know you touched on it in the last con for OG, but I'd put a separate bullet that simply says "Your level is capped at 81 in OG and it's impossible to level up after that since all items are fully mastered, rendering all XP gained from fight meaningless".
    I do agree with this, even tho it's rather a fact than an opinion. well spotted it's missing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLADET View Post
    so in your experience it's just as "easy" to fight Shade (with the cheapest items) as it is fighting titans 30 rebirths in with top gear even tho the titans have gained only minor in level?
    Not sure I fully understand your question, but in NG Shade is harder than GK (let alone other titans) simply because you can't dodge/parry those kicks with a light weapon. Shield without element protection is also useless. Your only counter is perfect block, and hopefully you can land some perfect parries to gain stab circles to kill him quickly before too much damage is done (so you have enough health left to defeat 4 other titans in the garden). In OG I imagine all titans are of similar difficulty, and I can see the game do get harder with each RB after you've mastered everything.

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    Block has "some" use without elemental resistance. You still block the physical attack, just not the elemental, and you can still score breaks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruggedland View Post
    Not sure I fully understand your question, but in NG Shade is harder than GK (let alone other titans) simply because you can't dodge/parry those kicks with a light weapon. Shield without element protection is also useless. Your only counter is perfect block, and hopefully you can land some perfect parries to gain stab circles to kill him quickly before too much damage is done (so you have enough health left to defeat 4 other titans in the garden).
    so isn't this really proof that within each NG the difficulty is diminishing - edit: or at least choppy? the first opponent (Shade) - and the ones coming after him (Kabuki, Ronin and Unknown troll) - is harder than the last one (Raidriar) if you don't kill them all without damage (which still make them harder since I imagine one wont go against the GK without a healing ring - edit: of course one can to be a bit more hardcore, like not using a defence triangle; this is not the point tho; either way one will have better items facing the GK). also, the first titan in rebirth 1 is only easier 'cus your HP is full again - then again this is a fact. but if you don't have bought IAPs you will have $0, can't buy new weapons or a health ring and hence it won't take long until your HP is rather low again.

    just want to point out this is no critic of NG game play - rather it's the main skill test for NG, imo.
    Last edited by BLADET; 01-11-2012 at 10:14 PM.
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    I thought you meant diminishing difficulty WITH each NG. Within the same NG, after you get through Saydhi, you do get full health back (like in the beginning of every RB) and also the difficulty drops since you have money to buy Nova Grinder and other items. It goes up/down in the 5RBs after that, depending on which titan/deathless you face, then it goes up a notch again with GK as the finale.

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    Well the difficulty diminishes both within each NG and also in the overall sequence of them right?
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    Not really. Even though for OG the difficulty goes up with each RB after you reach lvl 81, for NG the difficulty remains roughly the same with each NG as both you and enemy level up.

    Enough said. Maybe one should just try both for themselves. There is no right or wrong choice here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLADET View Post
    • Hard to reach top-tier of players since most have chosen to level up rather than getting deep in OG or one particular NG
    did some research on this and found that at lvl 108 I'm ranked 2,336 in GC, which is among the top 5% out of the 784,026 registered players. of these 137 are over lvl 604 which I interpret as they have hacked it since both L E A N D R O and ruggedland has confirmed lvl 604 is the cap (and Chair too, since they are fixing this in a future update?). reaching lvl 301 would put you among the best 297 players - for some reason 128 are "stuck" on lvl 300. and surely one don't need to invest any 15 hours a day to reach lvl 301? then again maybe rank 297 isn't exactly "top-tier", but it's worth thinking about. also it didn't take L E A N D R O many days to get back to lvl 604 after he was sent back to lvl ~120.

    I do think that one would be one of the top-tier players after just a couple of days playing 15 hours a day...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruggedland View Post
    I thought you meant diminishing difficulty WITH each NG.
    I kind of figured that, but I did write within each NG. at least we solved that
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    "For NG the difficulty remains roughly the same with each NG as both you and enemy level up."

    That's a helpful description, thank you.


    "There is no right or wrong choice here."

    We're just trying to lay out every possible angle of looking at the game. Since the same exact fact can be either a con or a pro depending on how you look at it or who's looking, I agree that it's not possible to be right or wrong about such things.
    Last edited by DarthDuck; 01-11-2012 at 11:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruggedland View Post
    Maybe one should just try both for themselves.
    of course one should, I've already started - even tho my lvl 108 probably wont impress you

    Quote Originally Posted by ruggedland View Post
    There is no right or wrong choice here.
    of course not, just trying to figure out what's right to write in the OP. thanks for confiming that the difficulty within each NG is diminishing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthDuck View Post
    I know there's disagreement on the time sink thing but can anyone think of a different way to phrase a more accurate point in that spot?

    Edit: even if you disagree with the point, can you think of a better way to phrase it? I can always tag you as being in disagreement with it even if you came up with it.
    I think I phrased it different in post #13... Might it be a "better way"?
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    One other thought on OG vs NG. If you plan to play IB2 6-12 months from now (why not if they keep adding new content as they promised), and if you'd like to pursue ever higher GK level or level, then NG is the only way to go (and might even save you some time in the long run). There has to be a cap on GK level in OG (4K, 5k?), and at some point it will become too time-consuming, and even if you can crack every one of his move in theory, a single mistake can kill you. In NG, there is no limit in what you can achieve.

    As for sheer difficulty, I think the chance of ChAIR adding the ability to stay in current NG after killing GK is good. If that happens, I predict you'll see Gk level taking a quantum leap. I can easily pursue GK level of 20K-30K in my current NG (NG^33) if I take time to master every item to its full, and start using Ring of Man and other goodies against GK. You'll likely see Voice's old IB1 Gk record of 50K fall as well (he did that in NG^100).

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    I was thinking the same thing, ruggedland. Any new enemies they introduce could be at extremely high levels - depending upon how far you advanced your character.
    On top of that, their attack routines will be unknown.

    For this reason I started a 3rd Character:
    1. SIRIS @ Level 81
    2. NewGame+ @ Level 130
    3. SIRIS for high GK play
    Last edited by iGasms; 01-12-2012 at 03:40 PM.

 

 
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