Is the 360 version limited?

[Illuzionz]

http://www.computerandvideogames.com....php?id=170133

Your opinions?

They could always add those maps to marketplace for free because of the knew microsoft supporting content stuff.

[SillyMikey]

Mark will say anything to sell his latest game. This is the guy who said that they cant release the PC Gears of War content on 360 because their engine is sooooooooooooooooo different now. When Gears 2 comes out, he'll be hyping the fact that 360 is so powerful and how they prefer it to ps3!

They made excuses for Gears on PC having the extra content, now they're making excuses for UT3 on ps3.

He'll say anything so you buy every game they come out with.

Release those extra maps as downloads day 1 on xbox live. They have to make the maps anyways for the ps3 version. Or will there be more excuses?

[sourshishke]

yes

What about the core owners, they wont get it.

[icecone]

They could always add those maps to marketplace for free because of the knew microsoft supporting content stuff. <-- Are you sure?
They can't even made the GOW maps free until 3/9.
M$ is a company which only aims to make money but not making fans

[SillyMikey]

They could always add those maps to marketplace for free because of the knew microsoft supporting content stuff. <-- Are you sure?
They can't even made the GOW maps free until 3/9.
M$ is a company which only aims to make money but not making fans

Gears is published by MS. UT3 isn't.

[Illuzionz]

They could always add those maps to marketplace for free because of the knew microsoft supporting content stuff. <-- Are you sure?
They can't even made the GOW maps free until 3/9.
M$ is a company which only aims to make money but not making fans

Recently, as in 1 day ago. Microsoft announced that they will be supporting free user created content from pc to 360 versions of game(s).

[Mark Rein]

I continue to be disappointed that folks on the internet treat any positive thing we say about one platform as some sort of critique of another platform. We're a multi-platform company folks please come to grips with that. We like the PC. We like the 360. We like the PS3. We like the Macintosh. We like Linux. We will deliver UT3 for all of these platforms and it will rock on every one.

The simple facts state that the optical disc on the PS3 holds more data than the optical disc on the 360. If we exceed size of the 360s optical disc then we'll have to find alternative ways to get the content to 360 users such as making it downloadable. Adding a second DVD to a game like UT3 would be a challenge because when playing online you might not know exactly what map you're going to be playing next and we have to be able to accommodate users of the core system. So does that mean the disc on the 360 might have a map or two less? Possibly although it is too early to tell for sure. People love Unreal Tournament because we always ship it with tons of great content but that also makes it a bit of a disc hog - in a good way

Obviously, and as is true with most major games on 360 and PS3, you're going to be putting your hard drive to good use if you want to experience the full richness of content that UT3 will have to offer over the lifetime of the game. the fact that you can do this is a good thing.

I don't know the exact numbers but I suspect the version of Gears of War that most of our customers play today on their 360s, when you combine the downloadable content with the content on the disc, is larger than what we could fit on the 360's optical disc alone. So clearly there are perfectly good strategies to cope with this situation. We're all very used to downloading extra content for console games and with UT3 there will be lots of it for all supported platforms. In fact the cool thing about our engine is that when you make content for one platform it can run on all of them. If history is any indication, the vast majority of UT3 content won't even come from Epic - it will come from some very brilliant end users with lots of cool and innovative ideas.

When it comes to user created mods on the 360 - we will work with Microsoft to find a way to support them. We just don't have all the answers today and it isn't our chief priority at this very moment because we already have our hands completely full shipping UT3 on PC and PS3 as well as shipping Gears of War on PC. When we get those out of the way, and get a little time to spend with our friends and families, then we'll get back on this issue and figure it out.

[Vinnie_PT]

Sooo... does that mean the PC / Mac / Linux versions will also have less content? Because the last time i checked most people didn't had a BD drive in their computers. Heck, a lot of them don't even have a DVD drive.

[expanded for clarification, since some people like to criticize without knowing any facts]

The US are not the center of the universe, wich means not every single computer out there has a DVD drive in it.

Pressing 1 DVD is roughly the cost of pressing 4 CDs, that was the reason given a few years back for UT2004s 6 CDs (yes, i know the SCE version came out in a DVD, but that was a limited edition)
I don't think they'll be pressing more than 1 DVD for this game even if it's for the PC. It's probably not cost effective. My 2 cents are on a 1 DVD edition with the missing stuff being available through download, leaving those still living with 56K or without internet unable to access this content.

Yes, there are still people without internet or on 56k modems with machines capable of playing this game. Remember that most UT2003/2004 buyers NEVER played online.
Again, the US are not the center of the universe and the rest of the world is very different from your neighborhood, so don't judge everyone else based on your narrow view.

[Apathy]

I love you Mr. Rein

Sooo... does that mean the PC / Mac / Linux versions will also have less content? Because the last time i checked most people didn't had a BD drive in their computers. Heck, a lot of them don't even have a DVD drive.

I don't know anyone that doesn't have a DVD drive. I do know people that have both DVD and regular CD drive, but never touch the regular CD drive.

[durtytarget]

Mark, just in case.. you need not get offended by these newb's. Some people comment before they read..some people comment before they play. It's all part of an open forum where you let people in who just sometimes join to say "epic sucks you like PS3!" then some other guy comes and says "epic sucks cause you like X360!"(you means You as in Mark rein). Now to think of it, aren't those totally contradicting?

All I'd say is, "best of luck to you making a game that makes the history of gaming itself!" "Do what you do best and what you think is really best for the game."

Thanks big time!

[Ultron]

Sooo... does that mean the PC / Mac / Linux versions will also have less content? Because the last time i checked most people didn't had a BD drive in their computers. Heck, a lot of them don't even have a DVD drive.

The PC version could have all the content distributed on multiple DVD's. After all it all goes onto the hard drive and you play it from there, inserting only the Play DVD when needed, until that copy protection is eliminated by Epic.

With the 360 you play off the DVD, and access additional content on the hard drive. In theory you could just have the Play DVD and an additional content DVD on the X360, just like the PC.

So let's hold off prejudgement right now, okay?

[Sublime]

The PC version could have all the content distributed on multiple DVD's. After all it all goes onto the hard drive and you play it from there, inserting only the Play DVD when needed, until that copy protection is eliminated by Epic.

With the 360 you play off the DVD, and access additional content on the hard drive. In theory you could just have the Play DVD and an additional content DVD on the X360, just like the PC.

So let's hold off prejudgement right now, okay?

　 　

[karmatized]

well people also have to remember that typicilly from what i have seen and what a lot of game reviews say is that the 360 typiclly has higher res textures on the same game then the ps3. That alone is gonna eat up disk space.

[ColdFire]

im really starting to get worried over the future of the xbox 360, with games unable to fit onto a single disc this early on, 360 only been out 22months or so, and already their limitations

[Mark Rein]

im really starting to get worried over the future of the xbox 360, with games unable to fit onto a single disc this early on, 360 only been out 22months or so, and already their limitations

There is nothing to worry about here. You can still fit a heck of a lot of game on an Xbox 360 disc and Microsoft has a great system for handling downloadable content.

[Devastator]

Sooo... does that mean the PC / Mac / Linux versions will also have less content? Because the last time i checked most people didn't had a BD drive in their computers. Heck, a lot of them don't even have a DVD drive.

You're an idiot, sorry.

[ULTRAVISITOR]

LOL. Some media sources have a habit of twisting the truth to meet their needs. IT'S A CONSPIRACY! LOL. J/K. UT3 itself is not "limited," it is the amount of storage space available on a DVD that is "limited," regardless of platform. In addition to the game, content that is not included on the disc may be downloaded at a later time. It's no biggie.

[sourshishke]

im really starting to get worried over the future of the xbox 360, with games unable to fit onto a single disc this early on, 360 only been out 22months or so, and already their limitations

Yeah like no 7.1 HD audio in any games.

Resistance has amazing sound and is I think 20 some odd gigs
Heavenly Sword uses 10 gigs just in audio and almost had to go to dual layer 50 gig discs!!

[Dymlos2003]

well people also have to remember that typicilly from what i have seen and what a lot of game reviews say is that the 360 typiclly has higher res textures on the same game then the ps3. That alone is gonna eat up disk space.

To be honest, have people even seen the 360 version? So how can you make that statement up?
Down loadable map packs is the way they will go, probably.

[Chupakun]

I continue to be disappointed that folks on the internet treat any positive thing we say about one platform as some sort of critique of another platform. We're a multi-platform company folks please come to grips with that. We like the PC. We like the 360. We like the PS3. We like the Macintosh. We like Linux. We will deliver UT3 for all of these platforms and it will rock on every one.

The simple facts state that the optical disc on the PS3 holds more data than the optical disc on the 360. If we exceed size of the 360s optical disc then we'll have to find alternative ways to get the content to 360 users such as making it downloadable. Adding a second DVD to a game like UT3 would be a challenge because when playing online you might not know exactly what map you're going to be playing next and we have to be able to accommodate users of the core system. So does that mean the disc on the 360 might have a map or two less? Possibly although it is too early to tell for sure. People love Unreal Tournament because we always ship it with tons of great content but that also makes it a bit of a disc hog - in a good way

Obviously, and as is true with most major games on 360 and PS3, you're going to be putting your hard drive to good use if you want to experience the full richness of content that UT3 will have to offer over the lifetime of the game. the fact that you can do this is a good thing.

I don't know the exact numbers but I suspect the version of Gears of War that most of our customers play today on their 360s, when you combine the downloadable content with the content on the disc, is larger than what we could fit on the 360's optical disc alone. So clearly there are perfectly good strategies to cope with this situation. We're all very used to downloading extra content for console games and with UT3 there will be lots of it for all supported platforms. In fact the cool thing about our engine is that when you make content for one platform it can run on all of them. If history is any indication, the vast majority of UT3 content won't even come from Epic - it will come from some very brilliant end users with lots of cool and innovative ideas.

When it comes to user created mods on the 360 - we will work with Microsoft to find a way to support them. We just don't have all the answers today and it isn't our chief priority at this very moment because we already have our hands completely full shipping UT3 on PC and PS3 as well as shipping Gears of War on PC. When we get those out of the way, and get a little time to spend with our friends and families, then we'll get back on this issue and figure it out.

Dear Mark,

I don't think you really have to justify your comments to this wave of inconsiderate, unrefined rabble who claim a putrescent allegiance to a particular console.

If they are willing to shove their opinions down others' throats, you should do the same.

At any rate, it's a pleasure to see developers in close contact with their fans, in other regards besides quelling fanboy wars.

Thanks!

[Skill]

Sooo... does that mean the PC / Mac / Linux versions will also have less content? Because the last time i checked most people didn't had a BD drive in their computers. Heck, a lot of them don't even have a DVD drive.

If previous Tournaments show anything, this will mean nothing on pc. For ut2k4 at least, everything was on the hard drive. For people who didn't have dvd drives, u could get like 12 cds with everything (including the mod pack later on). PC users shouldnt worry about anything, because in the end, they might have UT3 running better than 360 and even ps3, because of the potential 2-4 gigs of ram, as opposed to high speed 256 and 512 megs on consoles.

Besides, what does it really matter if 1/4 of the community has a couple less maps? I played the ut2k4 demo for like 2 years with its 5 or 6 maps because it was always fun. I didn't really care that I had those maps, and after I got the full version and downloaded 12 gigs of maps and mods, I still ended up playing the demo maps, because those were the ones I was fond of and they never got old, mostly because I was always playing with new people.

All in all i think people should just be happy with what they get, but I guess that could mean next to nothing to people coming from a ps3 player. I'll probly end up getting it on pc and ps3, if x-plat play doesnt come around. I don't think pc users have anything to worry about, and even if the 360 is handicapped for a while there will probably be downloadable content for it. Also, I think we should be thanking Epic for their ps3 thing, because I'll bet it heavily influenced M$'s decision to 'support user created content'. If all goes well, someone will find a way to run linux without the limitation of the ps3's hypervisor and then I can just have both versions (linux and ps3) on one machine .

[Spectra260]

So does this mean 360 gamers will be able to download the extra maps that ps3 gamers will get on disc?

360 gamers not only have to wait longer for the 360 version but once its out will we have to wait even longer for a mappack to download the extra maps that come on the ps3 version. Or will the mappack be ready to be downloaded on launch for 360 version.

And last will you charge for these maps on the 360 via MS points or would they be free?

I dont mind having to download the extra maps right away due to 360's disc limitation as long as there free and avaible within a week or two if not thats rediculious especially when the 360 version is coming out months later than ps3 version. But really they should be free and ready day one if they really want to justify that disc limitation is the only reason the extra maps are not included on the 360 disc.

[Unreal Butcher]

Thanks for the info Mark. I'd gladly delete everything off my 360's HDD if I had to, to enjoy UT3 on it. I figure this will keep me busy for a long time.

I'm also embarrassed to admit, that I did some upgrading on my PC to get in on the action before the 360 version comes out. I guess I should thank you for pushing the 360's release back, otherwise I'd of never upgraded. lol.

Anyway I plan on picking up the PC (can't wait, and want to check out the editor) and 360 version (kick it with friends from UC in coop and all the other great modes).

Thanks again for taking the time to post.

[numonex]

Mark will say anything to sell his latest game. This is the guy who said that they cant release the PC Gears of War content on 360 because their engine is sooooooooooooooooo different now. When Gears 2 comes out, he'll be hyping the fact that 360 is so powerful and how they prefer it to ps3!

They made excuses for Gears on PC having the extra content, now they're making excuses for UT3 on ps3.

He'll say anything so you buy every game they come out with.

Release those extra maps as downloads day 1 on xbox live. They have to make the maps anyways for the ps3 version. Or will there be more excuses?

Well this isnt a very good practice. it makes me not want to support Epic anymore. Does he think that millions of gamers that made him loot with Gears of war is going to just go out and get a PS3 because it is supposed to have more? Personally with all the games that are comming, especially Halo 3 and Bioshock, i just aswell skip over UT3 if it ever comes to 360. Maybe it shouldnt. If they cannot release the complete game then dont release it at all! Dont mess with people pocketbooks like this!

[nfleming]

[numonex]
Can you even read? The 360 drive ... oh why bother...

Thanks Mark, much appreciated.

[durtytarget]

I think If i say "lets open a |Poor Mark Rein| relief fund", every one will put in 200$ minimum.

[numonex]

[numonex]
Can you even read? The 360 drive ... oh why bother...

Thanks Mark, much appreciated.

You know what?? Yes I can read and I am a computer engineer. This stinks of BS. A number of things can be considered. first off i think the size claim is bunk, plenty of other games are quite sizable and are having no issues whatsoever. look at games like GRAW2, COD2 &3. Plenty of levels, environments or what have you. I just downloaded a Gears map pack that isnt even half of a GIG. nope I dont buy it. Second the additional content can also be stored on the 360 HDD. offer it as a download or even put it in the box as a second disk that copies it to the HDD. If you think I am going to pay THE SAME PRICE for a game that has less your crazy. Sorry but no dice!

[Molgan]

You know what?? Yes I can read and I am a computer engineer. This stinks of BS. A number of things can be considered. first off i think the size claim is bunk, plenty of other games are quite sizable and are having no issues whatsoever. look at games like GRAW2, COD2 &3. Plenty of levels, environments or what have you. I just downloaded a Gears map pack that isnt even half of a GIG. nope I dont buy it. Second the additional content can also be stored on the 360 HDD. offer it as a download or even put it in the box as a second disk that copies it to the HDD. If you think I am going to pay THE SAME PRICE for a game that has less your crazy. Sorry but no dice!

I still doubt your reading capability is tip top, Rein commented the HDD and download options in his post allready. UT requires a LOT of space. I don't think there are many with a ut2004 folder smaller then 10Gb, mine exceeded 30Gb a long time ago. Even thou UT3 will not have as many maps out of the box as ut2004 I think it will exceed that size quite a bit considering it will have way more content.

[durtytarget]

I think it will exceed that size quite a bit considering it will have way more content.

And don't forget way more detail!

[EntropicLqd]

...I just downloaded a Gears map pack that isnt even half of a GIG....

Good for you.

But what you don't know is how much of your map pack is actually content you already have available to you. When making a map for an Unreal Engine based game you can reference any item of content from any other package available to you. That package could be a custom mesh or sound in a different map, or a previously compiled package of meshes and textures.

The only content you need in your map pack is the stuff specific to the maps themselves.

As I'm sure you can imagine (being a computer engineer and all) being able to reuse content from multiple sources can bring down file sizes significantly.

[numonex]

yes I read his post and I also commented on it in my post. My problem with that is that 360 users may have to pay $59 for a game with less and then another sum just for the extra content. This is a possibility. If I hear they offer it for free then that is a differant story. Bottom line is that I wont pay $60 for less than the other guy. That constitutes a rip off. Screw core users, offer the maps online for free and i am happy.

[numonex]

Good for you.

But what you don't know is how much of your map pack is actually content you already have available to you. When making a map for an Unreal Engine based game you can reference any item of content from any other package available to you. That package could be a custom mesh or sound in a different map, or a previously compiled package of meshes and textures.

The only content you need in your map pack is the stuff specific to the maps themselves.

As I'm sure you can imagine (being a computer engineer and all) being able to reuse content from multiple sources can bring down file sizes significantly.

Absolutly. This is nothing new in games. some prime examples are some castle walls in Oblivion or even voices though the latter kind of gets annoying since you have umpteen characters in a game that say the same thing with the same voice. LOL. Also i thought 360 was capible of Procedural Geometry or moreso designed around it. From what I know of this method it makes fitting more on less space the norm. the demo game of this process, Kkrieger fits an entire UTlike level in 180kb. yes not a typo, 180kb. here is some info on that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:K...eenshot_01.jpg
[p]
Anyways is this process just used if a developer chooses so and is it not used because of it being more difficult to impliment? Or is it from just porting a single game around. You cannot really port this implimentation to another system that cannot make effeciant use of it so it would have to be a ground up build.

[Molgan]

yes I read his post and I also commented on it in my post. My problem with that is that 360 users may have to pay $59 for a game with less and then another sum just for the extra content. This is a possibility. If I hear they offer it for free then that is a differant story. Bottom line is that I wont pay $60 for less than the other guy. That constitutes a rip off. Screw core users, offer the maps online for free and i am happy.

Ah, that post was more reasonable. =) And I think that what you are asking for is exactly what Epic is trying to make happen.

[numonex]

Ah, that post was more reasonable. =) And I think that what you are asking for is exactly what Epic is trying to make happen.

yes. I wasnt clear in my initial post. Sorry bout that.

[capable heart]

Sooo... does that mean the PC / Mac / Linux versions will also have less content? Because the last time i checked most people didn't had a BD drive in their computers. Heck, a lot of them don't even have a DVD drive.

No, they don't have to worry about that. The computer version will play off the hard drive, which means they can have many discs (CDs or DVDs) to install, and it will all be on the computer hard drive at once. Because the computer version plays totally off the hard drive, this means that disc size limit is not a problem, because they can just use as many discs as they need to carry the install files.

[-VT-]

Sooo... does that mean the PC / Mac / Linux versions will also have less content? Because the last time i checked most people didn't had a BD drive in their computers. Heck, a lot of them don't even have a DVD drive.

...you just can't be serious right? please tell me this question was meant as a joke or you just had a momentary lapse of stupidity. You can't possibly tell me you don't know what a hard drive is/does or that when you INSTALL a game on a PC/Mac it goes on the HARD DRIVE which EVERY single desktop computer has to have in order to operate.

i think I'm going to become insane because of the Internet...i swear...

[Goobers]

HARD DRIVE which EVERY single desktop computer has to have in order to operate.

technically, no.

as it's always been, you could run the OS of some removable medium... early on, you had the entire OS start up on a floppy... then you swapped floppies around depending on what you did... didn't need a HDD. HDDs came a little later. i had an 8088 clone with a whopping 30 MB drive... it was the shnitz!

nowadays... you could have an OS on either a flash drive or a "live" CD/DVD... so you could run without HDDs... but the actual purpose now isn't to run without HDDs... but to be able to run your stuff on any computer without having to "install yourself" into those computers.

like i said though, it's a technicality.

unless you're one of those people that always wants to be "on the go, light and easy"... then you're gonna want a HDD.

on the flipside... anyone that has a "gaming PC" and still doesn't even have a DVD... are turds... need i say more?

[numonex]

Sorry guys. for those interested in procedural geometry games this is the right link, the last one only went to a screenshot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kkrieger

The game takes 96kb not 180kb. Sorry about the misinformation

[-VT-]

technically, no.

as it's always been, you could run the OS of some removable medium... early on, you had the entire OS start up on a floppy... then you swapped floppies around depending on what you did... didn't need a HDD. HDDs came a little later. i had an 8088 clone with a whopping 30 MB drive... it was the shnitz!

nowadays... you could have an OS on either a flash drive or a "live" CD/DVD... so you could run without HDDs... but the actual purpose now isn't to run without HDDs... but to be able to run your stuff on any computer without having to "install yourself" into those computers.

like i said though, it's a technicality.

unless you're one of those people that always wants to be "on the go, light and easy"... then you're gonna want a HDD.

on the flipside... anyone that has a "gaming PC" and still doesn't even have a DVD... are turds... need i say more?

sorry i should have put "EVERY single desktop computer that a typical/average person has to have in order to operate."...I mean i was responding to someone who, well you read what he said, do you think he even understands what you just posted .

i just knew someone was going to call me out on that...

[Goobers]

Sorry guys. for those interested in procedural geometry games this is the right link, the last one only went to a screenshot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kkrieger

The game takes 96kb not 180kb. Sorry about the misinformation

with that 96KB... what can be done? as the wiki said, most of the space on the DVD from UT2003/2004 isn't from the level information, but from the engine (which runs not only graphics, but physics, audio and AI processes) and textures.

there's a bit more to it than just level generation.