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View Full Version : Necris vehicles look cool, but that seems about it



Xyx
08-26-2006, 12:17 PM
I've seen three Necris vehicles so far: Darkwalker, Viper and Nemesis. They look awesome! The art department did an absolutely spectacular job on them. Each machine looks wicked and sleek, you see all the working parts move...

But then there's gameplay.

Credit where credit is due: the Darkwalker tri-tentacle movement is cool. But read on.

Darkwalker main guns: War of the Worlds style "layzurs". Wow.
Darkwalker support turret: More "layzurs". Yay.
Nemesis cannons: "layzurs". Anybody seeing a pattern here?
And then there's the Viper:
It hovers like a Manta.
It jumps and floats like a Manta.
It self-destructs like the new Scorpion.Does this thing even have any original features?

I really hope the other Necris vehicles will be a bit more inspired and on par with the rest of the UT series armament. The UT2004 vehicles at least have the skymines and the energy bola, both exotic weapon concepts not seen in other games.

Flak
08-26-2006, 12:35 PM
From Joe Wilcox: http://utforums.epicgames.com/showpost.php?p=24609534&postcount=85

;)

Scylla
08-26-2006, 12:37 PM
I don't mind having the lasers for the dark walker definately not stolen from anywhere driver because there is nothing in UT like that, but from then on I think they do need to have more original things.

Maybe they could make some stuff up about antimatter or something :p (and/or research a bit).

BigJim
08-26-2006, 12:41 PM
Also, do remember that it's very hard to balance out vehicles that are very different..

You've done a lot of vehicle coding Xyx, so surely you must understand that it's esier to ensure the teams are fair when you've got one side with a manta, and the other side with summat very similar to a manta - it's easier to argue that the Scorp's carbomb is fair, if the enemy has something *roughly* the same (be it on a different light vehicle in this case..).

I'm not so much on about how we explain these features away in the fluff material, I'm on about the mechanics of the weapons & features, and how they work in-game.

If all the vehicles are totally unique in every way, and have such wide variation between weaps, cool features, armour, speed & the like, then how do you work out what vehicle loadout is fair or a map, and what's not?
In-house playtesting can only take you so far. :)

HellFox
08-26-2006, 01:01 PM
im just concerned about the nemesis
it looks to big for its wepons

Hanji
08-26-2006, 01:31 PM
Well, Necris doesn't have a Scorpion type vehicle, rofl, its the hoverbike, Manta and Scorpion in a blender. Oh I read somewhere the Hoverbike can only glide when its wings are spread, the Manta can do it nearly all the time.

Hanji
08-26-2006, 01:34 PM
I've seen three Necris vehicles so far: Darkwalker, Viper and Nemesis. They look awesome! The art department did an absolutely spectacular job on them. Each machine looks wicked and sleek, you see all the working parts move...

But then there's gameplay.

Credit where credit is due: the Darkwalker tri-tentacle movement is cool. But read on.

Darkwalker main guns: War of the Worlds style "layzurs". Wow.
Darkwalker support turret: More "layzurs". Yay.
Nemesis cannons: "layzurs". Anybody seeing a pattern here?
And then there's the Viper:
It hovers like a Manta.
It jumps and floats like a Manta.
It self-destructs like the new Scorpion.Does this thing even have any original features?

I really hope the other Necris vehicles will be a bit more inspired and on par with the rest of the UT series armament. The UT2004 vehicles at least have the skymines and the energy bola, both exotic weapon concepts not seen in other games.
Hows about you create something out of the box and innovative plus balanced with something thats different, besides your current projects? I tried your vehicles with Epic stock ones, stock ones got owned.

happycat
08-26-2006, 01:58 PM
Look at it from an Unreal standpoint.... we already have a tank, a hovering bomber, hovercraft, little dune buggy, a recreational vehicle covered in guns, the biggest vehicle ever, etc. all in the Axon lineup. Historically, they're things we're all familiar with.

Now, the concept that we have for what can be "alien" is pretty limited... you can create thousands of vehicles that can fit under said description but many of them would be difficult to understand and not as effective as things we're familiar with. You look at a Darkwalker, and intuitively, you understand how it works.

Xyx
08-26-2006, 04:45 PM
From Joe Wilcox: http://utforums.epicgames.com/showpost.php?p=24609534&postcount=85

;) Oooh, I get it! They all just look like "layzurs", but actually they're something totally different, right? Right?


Also, do remember that it's very hard to balance out vehicles that are very different.. No harder than balancing out similar vehicles. It's a matter of tweaking numbers until it "feels" right. You have to do this for similar vehicles just the same.

I refer you to any of the "LG VS sniper" threads.


Hows about you create something out of the box and innovative plus balanced with something thats different, besides your current projects? Besides? Sure, I'll get right on it after I clone myself. Hang in there.


I tried your vehicles with Epic stock ones, stock ones got owned. So your team won an Onslaught match with them, right? And you would have lost if you had used Axon vehicles? Try a mirror match: you with Axon against XS. XS will get owned. And that then would prove... exactly nothing.

BigJim
08-26-2006, 07:24 PM
No harder than balancing out similar vehicles. It's a matter of tweaking numbers until it "feels" right. You have to do this for similar vehicles just the same.


Well, yes harder than balancing similar vehicles if we're being honest, since isntead of comparing like for like, we're comparing like for un-like..

Not to say it's not doable, just - harder - and open to *much* more complaining from us players, look at how many moans you get about asymmetrical maps, and then multiply that by however many vehicle matches get played each day.

When it comes to juggling numbers, for every player to whom it feels right, bet your bum there's another out there who thinks it's wrong, and even if you've got the balance perfect, it may well turn out to be totally different if you test on a different style of map, with different tactical features etc..; the one and only thing that no-one can argue with is if the vehicle loadout per map is identical for each team - just like no-one can claim a terrain advantage in a totally symmetrical map.

Anything else can, and will, have folks arguing that one is better than the other - it's human nature, the grass is greener & all that. :)

Personally, I'd be entirely happy if both team's the vehicles were identical, as they are now, with just different models/effects/animations, etc.. to make them look different, but I'm pretty easy to please, and of course if Epic pull off a stunner, and get the vehicles balanced and unique at the same time, then I'll be all for it. :)

Anywhoo, just my thoughts, I might be wrong of course.

Xyx
08-27-2006, 06:16 AM
Well, yes harder than balancing similar vehicles if we're being honest, since isntead of comparing like for like, we're comparing like for un-like..
The Leviathan and Darkwalker are already fundamentally unlike, making the entire vehicle sets fundamentally unlike, so you're already comparing like for unlike. Might as well follow through. I don't see how saying "but at least the Manta has an equivalent" helps the vehicle balance when one side gets a Leviathan and another a Darkwalker.

Besides, it is still very unclear whether there will actually be mirrored Axon VS Necris maps. My bet is those maps will not be ONS but only the Warfare thing, and they won't be symmetrical to begin with. So that's even more unlike. Then why bother keeping the remaining vehicles like?


Good luck trying to do that anyway from a movie that 90% of the time shows some dimwit getting in and out of vehicles.
I am not dissecting functionality as much as theme. If all weapons look like "layzurs", there's only so many things you can do with them.

Unless of course these "layzurs" are just placeholders for more interesting weaponry. In which case I wonder why Epic bothers to show the weapons firing.

=XM=
08-27-2006, 12:12 PM
Yeah I thought there were a bit too many lasers myself. In UT2004 all the vehicles were quite different and the only two similar weapons were the plasma cannons on the manta and raptor.

In UT2007 there seems to be a few things with rapid fire lasers (like the ruined hellbender turret. RIP) or slow uber ones like the one on the tripod.

I like the idea of different weapons + Shields on the levi. Although I think it's pretty lame that the side rocket launcher fires auto-targeting rockets (as can be seen at the end of the recent trailer).

I understand they didn't want all the vehicles to be the same in functionality on both sides, but have to replicate roles and hence some functionality is bound to be similar for some vehicles. E.g the HoverBike being similar to the manta (which is a hover bike and is labelled as such in the code iirc) in movement somewhat and having the kamikaze functionality of the scorpion. Btw I really hope they realise people will do double and triple kamikaze runs at nodes and that they balance the explosion so 3 of them cannot kill a node. If 3 of them come in, your defenders can probably only take 1 out before the other 2 reach the node. A repeat of the early kamikaze deemer runs that the community had to remove to prevent the game from being a deemer race at the start and a total lockdown for the winning team at the end would be very bad.

Another thing: I don't think the DarkWalker is the equivalent of the Leviathan. Notice how there are several of them in the map we are shown. Given their slow ROF, I would guess they have similar DPS to a Goliath and that we haven't seen the Necris super-vehicle yet. Nor have we seen Necris flying vehicles. Out of the 9 Necris vehicles we have only seen 3. I am sure not all of the other 6 will have lasers. Some will have plasma (yay for originality!) and others will have unique unseen-before fire-modes just like something like the scorpion bola or bender skymines are pretty unique. And I guess they are keeping the most original ones for last either to impress people more or because they haven't finished them yet.

To be fair, if the functionality of a weapon requires it to be hitscan, there isn't much choice in a sci-fi arcade-style game than to make said weapon some sort of laser or energy beam. Btw I want an EMP vehicle. It would have a slow ROF but would disable another vehicle it fires on, for up to maybe a third the duration of its weapon's cooldown. So you could shoot a manta to allow your team to kill it. Make a raptor drop like a fly from the sky for a bit. Prevent a Goliath from finishing your team's node etc... Ok maybe not, it would be too powerful. ^_^

Xyx
08-28-2006, 04:29 AM
I understand they didn't want all the vehicles to be the same in functionality on both sides, but have to replicate roles and hence some functionality is bound to be similar for some vehicles.
Whatever set you plunk down, roles will quickly be decided.

I think it's even more interesting to have different roles. Why does every set have to contain a buggy, a truck, a tank, a helicopter and some mobile fortress?


if the functionality of a weapon requires it to be hitscan, there isn't much choice in a sci-fi arcade-style game than to make said weapon some sort of laser or energy beam.
What's wrong with bullets? Doesn't have to be a regular cased round... Think solid rail slug, tarydium shard, acid capsule, compressed air packet, shredded plastic, toxic needle, micro-rocket...

Hanji
08-28-2006, 08:39 AM
Oooh, I get it! They all just look like "layzurs", but actually they're something totally different, right? Right?

No harder than balancing out similar vehicles. It's a matter of tweaking numbers until it "feels" right. You have to do this for similar vehicles just the same.

I refer you to any of the "LG VS sniper" threads.

Besides? Sure, I'll get right on it after I clone myself. Hang in there.

So your team won an Onslaught match with them, right? And you would have lost if you had used Axon vehicles? Try a mirror match: you with Axon against XS. XS will get owned. And that then would prove... exactly nothing.
Are you kidding, when I say I test them, I use them on my team.

placebo
08-28-2006, 11:24 AM
http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=551425

Post your suggestions for how the Necris vehicle weapons could be cooler in that thread.

NeoPhoenixIIM
08-28-2006, 12:35 PM
The only thing I don't like about the necris vehicles, is the vehicle that has the 8 wheels with stilts attached to it. I do kind of wish that they would have made more hover vehicles for the necris. At the very least a hover tank, I mean you got hover boards, why not hover vehicles?

Other than that I love the vehicles. The axon look sweeter than ever, and the dark walker and viper, are sweet.

Scylla
08-28-2006, 01:07 PM
The dark walker looks like it's the sort of equivalent of the leviathan, but instead of one matching the leviathan's power, you get more of them, so you out number them.

placebo
08-28-2006, 01:42 PM
Really, I don't think it's going to be much more powerful than the Goliath. They both have a driver and gunner position and there are more than one of them per map, yet they seem pretty balanced: Darkwalker's death beam seems to be short-ranged and the thing itself it a very tall target, while the goliath has more limited mobility options and less of an anti-personal strength.

EntropicLqd
08-28-2006, 01:59 PM
....What's wrong with bullets? Doesn't have to be a regular cased round... Think solid rail slug, tarydium shard, acid capsule, compressed air packet, shredded plastic, toxic needle, micro-rocket...
While I kind of sympathise with your thoughts about the "layzurs" I do like the whole engery beam idea. Simply because you can plausibly make them all look different using cool particle effects.

Your options for bullet type weapons would seem to me to be a little more limited - different coloured tracers perhaps. And if you actually want "real" projectiles then you might have a bunch of balance issues with hitscan weapons vs projectile weapons.

NeoPhoenixIIM
08-28-2006, 03:13 PM
The dark walker looks like it's the sort of equivalent of the leviathan, but instead of one matching the leviathan's power, you get more of them, so you out number them.
I'm pretty sure Epic said it was the Necris equivalent of the Goliath. They haven't showed the Necris super vehicle yet.

HellFox
08-28-2006, 09:25 PM
I'm pretty sure Epic said it was the Necris equivalent of the Goliath. They haven't showed the Necris super vehicle yet.
oh my gawd
that sounded so freaking cooool.

Xyx
08-29-2006, 07:40 AM
when I say I test them, I use them on my team.
Yes, that's why I suggest you try the other way around.


The only thing I don't like about the necris vehicles, is the vehicle that has the 8 wheels with stilts attached to it. I do kind of wish that they would have made more hover vehicles for the necris. At the very least a hover tank, I mean you got hover boards, why not hover vehicles?
Uhm... did we see the same vids? The Necris Nemesis is a hover tank and the Necris Viper is a hover bike. The 8-wheeled vehicle you're talking about is probably the Axon Paladin (with 6 wheels).

Hanji
08-29-2006, 09:31 AM
I'm pretty sure Epic said it was the Necris equivalent of the Goliath. They haven't showed the Necris super vehicle yet.
Yep, and did you saw the new HD trailer? The Leviathan killed the DarkWalker with one shot from the 0wnag3 big gun.

CVROY
08-29-2006, 10:06 AM
It doesn't matter what the vehicles come with, they can all be modded to add balance or other wep types if one is not satisfied.

theteck
08-29-2006, 10:31 AM
ya me too i think ut2007 will be the best moded game :)

its unreal
:)

Xyx
08-29-2006, 10:45 AM
It doesn't matter what the vehicles come with, they can all be modded to add balance or other wep types if one is not satisfied.
Every try? UT2004 is extremely moddable, but it's more work than it looks.

And modding the stuff is not the problem, convincing the rest of the world to use the modded stuff instead of the default stuff they just got used to is.

JoystickMonkey
08-29-2006, 04:51 PM
It doesn't matter what the vehicles come with, they can all be modded to add balance or other wep types if one is not satisfied.
or UNbalance, as most mods do.:p
I find it funny that so many people are arguing about something that is so far from being complete. I'm sure that many things are just placeholder weapons at the moment, and I wouldn't look too closely at weapons/balance right now.
If you're worried about necris vehicles having all hitscan weapons, don't start a thread with "Necris vehicles look cool, but that's about it." How would you like it if I made a post about your vehicles... much less after I saw a SCREENSHOT of a vehicle that is months from completion and said, "Yeah, it looks cool, but the weapons probably suck."

2th
08-29-2006, 04:59 PM
Every try? UT2004 is extremely moddable, but it's more work than it looks.

And modding the stuff is not the problem, convincing the rest of the world to use the modded stuff instead of the default stuff they just got used to is.

you win BEST IN THREAD AWARD for that response.

Xyx
08-30-2006, 05:55 PM
I'm sure that many things are just placeholder weapons at the moment
Then they should not be presented as "this is what it's gonna be like".


How would you like it if I made a post about your vehicles... much less after I saw a SCREENSHOT of a vehicle that is months from completion and said, "Yeah, it looks cool, but the weapons probably suck."
Ooh, the personal touch. My stuff or how I would feel is totally unrelated to this thread, but if you must know... I would appreciate the feedback and realize I'd need to post screenshots that more accurately portray the weapons.