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legacy-TWD
06-07-2004, 03:35 PM
I'm not sure how many people here really know me much or care, but I figure there's maybe a few so I thought I'd post.

I've been playing this game since early 2000. I've been involved with beyondunreal ever since then posting on the forum (tho it was planetunreal back then). I played through ut1, was really involved clanning in ut2k3, and still play regularly. You've probably seen me post, especally if you goto beyondunreal.com

Well all that is soon comming to an end. I'm mormon and one of the things that mormon guys my age do is go on missions. I get to walk door to door and ask people if they want to learn things about my religion. That's all I will be doing for the next two years - reading scriptures and teaching people. No TV, no computers, only communication I'll have with my friends/family will be through mail. All personal matters I have to leave behind. I'll also have to fork out a lot of money to do this (like 12 thousand or something like that).

What does that mean? I won't be around. No UT2k4, no forums, no testing mods or talking to people in IRC. I'm leaving for independance, missouri on July 7th. One month left. You probably won't hear a thing of me untill 2006. Hopefully I'll be back before epic releases their next game :)

Firebert
06-07-2004, 03:38 PM
yo, what up? didn't know there were very many other mormons on here, go figure, but just think of all the cool new games you'll get to play all at once when you get back

legacy-Sidekicker
06-07-2004, 03:43 PM
I dont see the sence in it myself, but either way, good luck. I hope you have safe travels and enjoy yourself :):up:

legacy-Equalize
06-07-2004, 03:50 PM
And I thought parents forcing me to goto church every sunday morning was bad enough.

legacy-StiGMaT
06-07-2004, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by TWD
I'm not sure how many people here really know me much or care, but I figure there's maybe a few so I thought I'd post.

I've been playing this game since early 2000. I've been involved with beyondunreal ever since then posting on the forum (tho it was planetunreal back then). I played through ut1, was really involved clanning in ut2k3, and still play regularly. You've probably seen me post, especally if you goto beyondunreal.com

Well all that is soon comming to an end. I'm mormon and one of the things that mormon guys my age do is go on missions. I get to walk door to door and ask people if they want to learn things about my religion. That's all I will be doing for the next two years - reading scriptures and teaching people. No TV, no computers, only communication I'll have with my friends/family will be through mail. All personal matters I have to leave behind. I'll also have to fork out a lot of money to do this (like 12 thousand or something like that).

What does that mean? I won't be around. No UT2k4, no forums, no testing mods or talking to people in IRC. I'm leaving for independance, missouri on July 7th. One month left. You probably won't hear a thing of me untill 2006. Hopefully I'll be back before epic releases their next game :)

humm why are you doing this if your calling your self a moreon :P not very logicail if your doing it its cause your want to and you shouldnt call your self anything and not care is other spam and flam you about it..... Do what you trhink it the good thing :)

No tv!!! and No Computer!!!?? hope you dont knock at my door ill through you a brick :P :PP

good luck with your thing :)

legacy--Twista-
06-07-2004, 03:53 PM
I´m so total unreligious,but if it´s your will then do it for your religion.I wish u good luck with it.I´ll meet you again in 2 years =):) :up:

legacy-FrozenSquirrel
06-07-2004, 03:54 PM
At times like those, it makes me glad im of no denomination. I dont agree with doing things because a god will disaprove if i didnt do a certain thing or w/e. Its just silly. Also, please dont come to my house. Good luck living without UT and forums though.

legacy-Shuri
06-07-2004, 03:54 PM
Good luck!

I'm also gonna be away for 2 years, as of ~July 3rd. I'll still have computer/net access etc though.

Boksha
06-07-2004, 03:56 PM
I'm seriously considering about making a lame remark about mormons and martial arts.

Anyway, I'm glad I don't have to do anything like that. I wish you the best of luck with it though.

legacy-TripWire
06-07-2004, 03:58 PM
eh...
*thankful he's not mormon*

No offence but I seriously don't see how one could enjoy that religion... I'm sure there's a heck of a lot more to it, but (to me) it sounds like you're paying $12G to have doors slammed in your face? ... no thanks.

Mind you I'd be wrong to assume I'm right on the money, because I'm sure there's a lot more going on then that...it sounded to me like you're giving that $$$ to whoever it is who's running your local parish, but i'm sure it's something more reasonable like plane tickets + other stuff, or something... anyway, feel free to ignore my post if you want :)

geez, I reread my rambling and it looks as though I'm calling mormonism a cult, yes I know it's a religion!

opinion aside, good luck on whatever it is you'll be doing :) :up:

*lets the flaming of himself begin*

legacy-duskboy
06-07-2004, 03:59 PM
sell your computer before leaving for teh crusade, then buy a new one when you get back to gaming again. ;)

pssst, bring a Gameboy with you in secret.

Chain-Lei
06-07-2004, 04:00 PM
http://www.armory.com/~tessien/pictures/humor/crickets.gif

good luck ! enjoy the views :)

legacy-TripWire
06-07-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by duskboy
sell your computer brefore leaving for teh crusade, then buy a new one when you get back to gaming again. ;)

pssst, bring a Gameboy with you in secret.

screw that! bring a PSP! (casually gloats that a friend of his is on one of the Sony dev teams for the upcoming PSP).

BesigedB
06-07-2004, 04:05 PM
Adeos :/

The only thing I see wrong at that is the expenditure of so much cash, but that is life.

It's a shame that these "missions" cann't be brought up to date, but they haven't, so see ya in two years :)

legacy-HerbofGPL
06-07-2004, 04:08 PM
Religeon is not really my bag, not in an organised sense anyway.
I can see that good comes as a result of peoples faith as well as bad though.
So in summary, if you believe in what you're doing and you're sure it will not encroach on other peoples right to believe what they want, then go for it!

2 years is a long time though, sounds like the sort of thing you need to be really certain about.
I mean, religeon is supposed to be a set of rules to live your life by - its not meant to be your life to the exclusion of all else, even if it is only for 2 years.

I have a good friend whose family are Mormons. They're great people. However, out of 9 children, only my friend and one brother chose not to follow the religeous beliefs of his family.
They didn't suffer from it as far as I can tell. They are both great family men with good jobs, loving families etc.
My friend described it as "I just didn't feel I needed it to do the right thing."
He invariably does do the right thing, so I tend to agree.

But I digress. If its for you, you'll already know in your own mind. Make the right choice.

legacy-Cythes
06-07-2004, 04:08 PM
Well GL and have fun. This should be enlightening. :up:

legacy-Jerry1978
06-07-2004, 04:08 PM
i guess you're going through the lytic phase of the life cycle, huh?

legacy-Gumbypants
06-07-2004, 04:09 PM
Hey man, congratulations...Going on a mission is a very daunting and important step for us mormons. I wish you a spiritually filled journey......

Fortunately for me, mormonism has always been a little bit different in my family (with at least one non-member in our immediate family), so I never really got the pressure of going on a mission...That and being a philosophy major has "slightly" altered my perception of the world...

Plus, I can't bring myself to leave UT2004 to go on a mission...

Maybe I should go on a UT2004 Mission...

I will spread the word of the joys of online competitive DEATHMATCH and murder. I love this game!

But in all seriousness, good luck, I'm sure you will be fine and come back a new person. I feel your pain about having to leave "civilization"

legacy--Twista-
06-07-2004, 04:10 PM
Bring pictures and pie!:heart:

legacy-HerbofGPL
06-07-2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Shuri

I'm also gonna be away for 2 years, as of ~July 3rd. I'll still have computer/net access etc though.

Prison or Military? (not that theres much difference!) :)

legacy-johnt2489
06-07-2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by HerbofGPL
Prison or Military? (not that theres much difference!) :)

or being Mormon....

legacy-FrozenSquirrel
06-07-2004, 04:14 PM
Why do you HAVE to do this? will they like look down on you? i dont see the point of being forced/wanting to throw at 12 grand to go door to door asking people to convert.

legacy-HerbofGPL
06-07-2004, 04:18 PM
A friend of mine used to spend hours talking to jehovahs witnesses.
He wasn't looking for religion, he was just unemployed and enjoyed a good argument :)

They seemed to enjoy his company too, I mean how often do they get access to all the tea they can drink and an audience with a godless, dope smokin', hard drinkin' out of work blues guitarist with an attitude? :D

legacy-(9)Felon
06-07-2004, 04:26 PM
Okay, I'm not religious, but...

I am amazed at some of the reactions some people are having about this. If I can paraphrase, it is "how can you give up living for yourself and do something selfless for two whole years of your life?" or "how can they force you to do this?"

I would bet good money that TWD is doing this of his own free will and will come back a better person from the experience; he will learn to love the privileges and experiences of his life that much more. In some respects, I envy his conviction to his religion and God.

Good luck, TWD. If you make it to my door, I won't slam it in your face. Godspeed.

9fel

legacy-duskboy
06-07-2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by TripWire
screw that! bring a PSP! (casually gloats that a friend of his is on one of the Sony dev teams for the upcoming PSP).

well, atleast you got my point, GBA, PSP or the Taco-phone... Anything! :D

legacy-Shuri
06-07-2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by HerbofGPL
Prison or Military? (not that theres much difference!) :)

Neither, moving to a different continent. Not planning on going to jail there.

legacy-Sitz
06-07-2004, 04:30 PM
well get a real job next time

legacy-Hanover_Fist
06-07-2004, 04:30 PM
Too bad you're not a direct decendant of Brigham Young and a really good Quarterback, you wouldn't have to go on a "mission".

"Steve (Young) went to visit with the brethren [LDS apostles] and they told him, 'Athletics is your mission,' " says Shirley Johnson, secretary in BYU's athletics department.

Who knows, maybe if you were good enough to start for Horizon they would've told you "Playing UT is your mission". :haha:


When you get back, I'll be pro, and I'm going to beat you down like a redheaded step-nOOb....:p

Boksha
06-07-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by duskboy
sell your computer before leaving for teh crusade, then buy a new one when you get back to gaming again. ;) That's actually a good idea.
Computers tend to lower in value a lot faster than money does.

legacy-FizzyRB
06-07-2004, 04:33 PM
dont go its stupid, most religions are just a way to justify a existence without humanly comprehensible meaning because most of us need a meaning in our life to keep going.

and before anyone flames me and tells me to respect his beliefs..
if hes going to knock on my door and try and convince me into his point of view, i think ill do the same ;)

not that it wouldnt be nice to see ya :P

legacy-Varsity
06-07-2004, 04:35 PM
I bet I could count the number of succesful door-to-door conversions not from somebody already thinking about it on the fingers of one leperous hand.

legacy-Jermaine_X
06-07-2004, 04:39 PM
eh? why do that and pay for it?
what's the point? were you forced?

legacy-A2597
06-07-2004, 04:40 PM
wow...I had no idea that was a required thing for Mormans....

I'll stick with Christianity, thanks. :D

legacy-Beers&Blunts
06-07-2004, 04:41 PM
That sucks man.:down:
No sex before marriage, 2 year missions in the prime of life....being a mormon isn't too fun.....:o

legacy-Varsity
06-07-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by A2597
wow...I had no idea that was a required thing for Mormans....

I'll stick with Christianity, thanks. :D
:haha::up:

Firebert
06-07-2004, 04:45 PM
its about 250 a month, incase people are wondering, i'm saving up (very slowly)

EDIT:
Originally posted by A2597
wow...I had no idea that was a required thing for Mormans....

I'll stick with Christianity, thanks. :D

well, technically Mormons are christians, but to ignore that argument, at least mormons can have a family, it'd suck to be a priest, and i've had alot of protestant religious friends, I'm not changing anytime soon

legacy-TKATk
06-07-2004, 04:46 PM
Well,thinking about it if you go,you should say this on your door to door rampage

"Fork me 6G to become a moron"

BeerNut
06-07-2004, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by TWD
Well all that is soon comming to an end. I'm mormon and one of the things that mormon guys my age do is go on missions. I get to walk door to door and ask people if they want to learn things about my religion. That's all I will be doing for the next two years - reading scriptures and teaching people. No TV, no computers, only communication I'll have with my friends/family will be through mail. All personal matters I have to leave behind. I'll also have to fork out a lot of money to do this (like 12 thousand or something like that).


Just out of curiousity TWD (since you did not make this clear in your initial post):

Is this something that you are excited about doing at your own free will?, or is it something that you feel you HAVE to do against your will?

Firebert
06-07-2004, 04:53 PM
i was actually wonering that too

legacy-Foo
06-07-2004, 04:55 PM
Meh, it's just religious propogation.

You're a mug if you beleive it's anything spiritual.

The reason it's an integral part of the religion is so that the religion continues to propogate.

BeerNut
06-07-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Foo
You're a mug if you beleive it's anything spiritual.


It's a little short-sighted to call someone a "mug" because they gain spirituality from their beliefs...

Particularly if you don't agree with those beliefs.

legacy-Ihr Feind
06-07-2004, 04:59 PM
**** God, convert those HALO heathens to UT2004. Go door to door...

"Do you know Jesus?"
"No."
"That's nice, now take me to your computer. There is much work the lord needs done"

legacy-Chipface
06-07-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Foo
Meh, it's just religious propogation.

You're a mug if you beleive it's anything spiritual.

The reason it's an integral part of the religion is so that the religion continues to propogate.

I couldn't agree more. Religion is just a bunch of propoganda. Religion causes people to kill each other. Just look at the conflict with Israelis and Palestinians. Every religion says they are the right religion. It's all about control IMHO.

Grim
06-07-2004, 05:06 PM
Screw religions they just a bunch of bull anyway, Like FizzyRB said religions are there because humans cant imagine being their own superiors. Human nature tells us that something should be above us(God or whatever different religions call him/her) :)

Religions was created by peopel to control peopel exploiting something that genereally human seeks and thats a meaning of life a guidance¨.

I had a priest lecturing me one time on how I had to believe in something bla bla bla yada yada. I told him to go screw himself and not force his god damn religion on me. :D :D

I am a member of the Christian Church because my parents had me baptised (Not like I had much choice and the bastards included a free membership of the church :D :D) but once I get my ass of the chair I am leaving the church because I dont believe in any religion at all.

legacy-Ihr Feind
06-07-2004, 05:07 PM
so what are you going to play violent games your entire life, then instatly be up and like "Jesus loves you!"

Typical ****ing christian.

legacy-HeCTiC 6ft dp
06-07-2004, 05:10 PM
Better to knock on doors, than fly planes into buildings or blow yourself up. Good luck with your thing and I hope for your sake you meet nothing but friendly people.

Firebert
06-07-2004, 05:10 PM
not like he's swearing off violent video games forever, just for two years, you guys should watch Singles Ward

legacy-A2597
06-07-2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Firebert
its about 250 a month, incase people are wondering, i'm saving up (very slowly)

EDIT:

well, technically Mormons are christians, but to ignore that argument, at least mormons can have a family, it'd suck to be a priest, and i've had alot of protestant religious friends, I'm not changing anytime soon

I believe you're confusing Catholism with Christianity. Catholic priest arn't allowed to have families, Christian ministers/pastors are. Actually, most of the Pastors I've known have huge families...3-5 kids. :D :D

And not trying to convert ya mate. ;) :) Same God afterall, just slightly varying beliefs between all the faiths.

legacy-Foo
06-07-2004, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by BeerNut
It's a little short-sighted to call someone a "mug" because they gain spirituality from their beliefs...

Particularly if you don't agree with those beliefs.

Short sighted isn't the right term. I think you meant arrogant.

I'll concede that. I've discovered that it's simpler than entering a debate on religion. The reason being that I beleive religion is the very art of creating arguments, and therefore I would merely waste my time.

Hence, I concede the point but do not agree.

legacy-freakyTweaker
06-07-2004, 05:16 PM
Wow, that's some serious devotion. But I wonder, why can't someone take their laptop when doing these missions? Why can't you use email and phones to communicate with your friends/loved ones? Why give up your personal freedoms and hobbies? Sounds more like the draft to me. No wonder why the military and some religions seem so similar these days.... conquering evil and the like. sigh. :eek:

legacy-TWD
06-07-2004, 05:17 PM
lol of course I'm doing this of my own free will. Yeah I'm not looking forward to leaving everything behind for 2 years, but at the same time I know I'll enjoy it and have fun. It what I want to do.

legacy-eez_
06-07-2004, 05:23 PM
That sucks man.

BTW, I was a mormon too. I went AWOL on my "mission"... any idea about the penalties involved ?

legacy-t0x1k
06-07-2004, 05:23 PM
Good luck.
2 years, damn that's a long time. How can anyone do that? I'm guessing you're going all over the state or country?

Just don't come knocking on my door, no offense, but I don't tolerate this stuff.

legacy-El Gringo
06-07-2004, 05:26 PM
Sounds more like a lifestyle than a religion to me.

Good luck anyways :up:

Firebert
06-07-2004, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by TWD
lol of course I'm doing this of my own free will. Yeah I'm not looking forward to leaving everything behind for 2 years, but at the same time I know I'll enjoy it and have fun. It what I want to do.
thats good, i donno why you would go if you felt forced, it'd defeat the purpose, and toxik, it's in one general area, looks like Independence, Missouiri

legacy-[iM]A_DeMoN
06-07-2004, 05:30 PM
mormons have sex like 16 times a day tho the ones i kno around here alll have like 73 kids

legacy-Sphinx
06-07-2004, 05:32 PM
altho i normally really dislike people trying to "convert" me to any religion (since they keep on going even after i tell them im not interested) i really wish you the best of luck, and farewell :)

Firebert
06-07-2004, 05:33 PM
you know that wouldn't really get lots of kids, it'd have to be like once every 10 months

legacy-zeroskillz
06-07-2004, 05:43 PM
To each his/her own. Beliefs are for people that wish to belive in them, that's why they are there, it doesn't matter it it's real or not, to your or them, as long as it get's them through whatever task that they face, in which they feel their spirituality will help them, that's all that matters.

I personally do not believe in any god, I think of it as a form of control, and that's my opinion. I praise the sun, at least I can see it, and at least it's usefull for something moreso than filling my head with self created propaganda.

-zeroskillz

legacy-TWD
06-07-2004, 06:10 PM
My mission area covers a small part of missouri and most of kansas.

legacy-el_chico
06-07-2004, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Ihr Feind
**** God, convert those HALO heathens to UT2004. Go door to door...

"Do you know Jesus?"
"No."
"That's nice, now take me to your computer. There is much work the lord needs done"

ROFLMAO!!!!!

btw, good luck on your mission.
(omg, you have your own assault mission!!!)

legacy-marshdabeachy
06-07-2004, 06:13 PM
I hope you're prepared to face a lot of rejection. :rolleyes:

legacy-DarKnyt
06-07-2004, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Jermaine_X
eh? why do that and pay for it?
what's the point? were you forced?

To clarify, the money goes directly to supporting yourself in the field. Currently the monthly amount is about $375 x 24 months = 9,000. Think for a second if you could really live, eat and operate (including rent) on under $400 per month.

In reality, many missions in the world cost MUCH more than the missionary contributes so they are actually being partially supported by the church in these areas. I might have a decent grasp on this as I have a younger brother in Switzerland right now (one of the most expensive in the world) and a total of 4 people in my family have done this.



I bet I could count the number of succesful door-to-door conversions not from somebody already thinking about it on the fingers of one leperous hand.

I would generally agree with this.

An important point is that going door to door, while a commonly recognized activity, is actually one of the least effective methods of finding people. It's more a tool of last resort. More useful are looking for people who are already making their own efforts to change their lives - a variety of means are employed here and "tracting" as its called is pretty far down on the list.

Generally, a missionary's job is to FIND people who are ALREADY converted - NOT convert people. That conversion is between the individual and the Big Man. Missionaries are just there to help arrange the meeting. There just isn't an emphasis on trying to "convert" people at their door. It's about finding those people who are ready, and especially those who are hoping and seeking for such a change in their life.


Wow, that's some serious devotion. But I wonder, why can't someone take their laptop when doing these missions? Why can't you use email and phones to communicate with your friends/loved ones? Why give up your personal freedoms and hobbies? Sounds more like the draft to me. No wonder why the military and some religions seem so similar these days.... conquering evil and the like. sigh

The idea is that by shutting out all concerns for self you are able to focus on the needs of other people and serve them 24/7. By so doing you you allow yourself to draw closer to the source that will help you serve those around you.

Besides, all of us around that age could do with a good healthy dose of selflessness and concern for others. I know I sure needed it.

In the end, it's about bringing people more truth and hope and adding to the good beliefs and values they may already have.

That being said, I'm glad I got into computer gaming AFTER my mission :D

legacy-Ihr Feind
06-07-2004, 06:20 PM
Just Don't come to my door, I will end up converting you. You will be going through UT withdrawls, and my proposition would be too enticing to pass up.

"DENOUNCE GOD AND I WILL LET YOU PLAY ONE ROUND OF DEATHMATCH"

"GOD IS FAKE! HE IS FAKE!!! JUST--- LET---- ME --- PLAY--- NOW--"

"Its in the back."

legacy-A2597
06-07-2004, 06:28 PM
sigh....alot of annoying people here, arn't there? :)

legacy-DoubleTRANCE
06-07-2004, 06:28 PM
well then.... good luck and see you again in UT2006 ;)

legacy-noobhammer
06-07-2004, 06:36 PM
Just don't let anyone steal your magic underpants :)
Will they let you bring your trampolene?

legacy-johnt2489
06-07-2004, 06:38 PM
"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).
- Brigham Young

legacy-DarKnyt
06-07-2004, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by johnt2489
"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).
- Brigham Young

*yawn* done to death. :) But nice trolling


You should also know that the JOD aren't considered canon.

p.s. - Don't forget Moses and Abraham while you're at it.

legacy-FrozenSquirrel
06-07-2004, 06:41 PM
Im not being rude or mean, i just want to know if u really think that many people really would like you to come to their door and hear you tell them they are wrong and you are right....

Wouldnt the people that DO come to you?

legacy-DarKnyt
06-07-2004, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by FrozenSquirrel
Im not being rude or mean, i just want to know if u really think that many people really would like you to come to their door and hear you tell them they are wrong and you are right....

Wouldnt the people that DO come to you?

Many of those people do "come to us" - but again - I think you're confusing us with other religions that are more . . . confrontational . . . at the door. There isn't any telling of how wrong you are and how right we are.

In fact, I think every person should have the belief that their religion is the right one - if you don't - you should either learn more about it until you do, or trade up. ;)

Many people don't appreciate it- but the few that do are the reason we look for them.

legacy-johnt2489
06-07-2004, 06:46 PM
[BMormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another world and that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on his home world. He brought his wife to this world, a woman he had married on the other world. She is, essential a goddess.
In his present god-state, he rules our world. He has a body of flesh and bones. Since god and his wife are both exalted persons, they each possess physical bodies. In their exalted states as deities, they produce spirit children that grow and mature in the spiritual realm. The first spirit born was Jesus. Afterwards Lucifer was born along with the rest of us. So, Mormonism teaches that we all pre-existed in the spirit realm having been produced from the union of god and his goddess wife. Therefore, we all existed in spirit form before coming down down and entering the bodies of human babies that are being born on earth. During this ‘compression' into the infant state, the memories of their pre-existence is 'veiled.'
[/B]


Is this what Mormons believe, or not?
Just curious.

legacy-FrozenSquirrel
06-07-2004, 06:51 PM
omg thats sweet, but i dont think i could lose 2 yrs to tell ppl about it.

Trailboss3
06-07-2004, 07:08 PM
Hey if it's what you want to do...Enjoy and have fun!

And if it stays like its been lately, someone will dig this thread back up in two years:p

legacy-BroMacK
06-07-2004, 07:40 PM
COOL DUDE!!!

Well, no worries, your not the only mormon that activly plays UT, I am an active mormon (actually an EQP at the moment), and am an RM. I know some don't understand it in here, but my two years out there were awesome! Went to Fort Worth, Texas returned in 99. I know you don't have games during that time, but you have more important things to do. Just dig in and work hard... it will all be worth it, and two years is extreemly short!

I wouldn't trade my mission for 10 years of UT straight. Sry boys... nobody can understand it, but it is all worth it!

MacK

Feel free to pm me if you wanna chat about it... I am interested to hear where you got called to.

Folk
06-07-2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by johnt2489
Is this what Mormons believe, or not?
Just curious.

It's irrelevant what they believe. It is still an off-shoot of the Judeo/Christian doctrines of fear and control, whose members include Muslims, Jews and Christians. Were it not for those doctrines, we would probably all be living in peace and happiness in a world where we foster the health of our planet and respect each other. As it is, the belief in an "afterlife", "heaven" and "godless infidels" causes the Judeo/Christian hordes to abuse our planet and subjugate each other.

It's maddening.

legacy-Eeep
06-07-2004, 07:43 PM
Religion and religous discussions usually bring me some negative emotions, but I guess this is INA and you're not going to be able to avoid a flamewar in here so I'll just wish you good luck....

legacy-TWD
06-07-2004, 08:01 PM
Hey, I didn't make this thread so we could have a debate about mormonism and religion. It's just to say goodbye to a community I've been extreemly active in.

legacy-creepah
06-07-2004, 08:28 PM
Let Go
Let God...

legacy-Spoony_Commie
06-07-2004, 09:18 PM
Why are you going on this mission anyways? What reasoning is there to it?

Good luck. I'm not going to curse you for it even if... Well.

legacy-KillerDude
06-07-2004, 09:30 PM
Mormonism defintley isn't for me.

I'm Jewish, and between getting circumsised AGAIN and this... The fact that i'm actually debating it scares me.

legacy-KillerDude
06-07-2004, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Folk
It's irrelevant what they believe. It is still an off-shoot of the Judeo/Christian doctrines of fear and control, whose members include Muslims, Jews and Christians. Were it not for those doctrines, we would probably all be living in peace and happiness in a world where we foster the health of our planet and respect each other. As it is, the belief in an "afterlife", "heaven" and "godless infidels" causes the Judeo/Christian hordes to abuse our planet and subjugate each other.

It's maddening.

No, there would be wars anyway. I have a bunch of friends who think Jesus was, in fact, killed by the Jews (me) and we're... Well... Friends.

People as a whole are just really dumb. See first quote in sig.

legacy-Nut_Bag
06-07-2004, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by eez_
That sucks man.

BTW, I was a mormon too. I went AWOL on my "mission"... any idea about the penalties involved ?

Hell! Of course that's only for people who believe in such nonsense ;)

legacy-DrThodt
06-07-2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by TWD
Well all that is soon comming to an end. I'm mormon and one of the things that mormon guys my age do is go on missions.

Aye, one of my friends should be coming back from Africa soon.

legacy-Loeder
06-07-2004, 10:05 PM
ahum: you post your thread with a => :(

why ? its your own choice to believe in that stuff, offcourse you have everyright to believe whatever you want but.... imo i dont get why people dont wise up i mean believing in fairytails believe in science, watch some startrek or smth, you actually think we are alone in this universe :bulb: because all believe will be instantly dropped coz bible said we are alone (yea right :rolleyes: ) the bible/koran/etc was only written to have some sort of crowd control, to bring fear in peoples hearts so there would be no anarchy and chaos, its what made sociaty, good and evil, law and order, unfortunatly the fairytail got stuck and in a few centuries it will be gone for the most part, and as you can see in less developped countries especially muslim based sociaties they are like behind 100 years compared to the western world (usa,euro) we all know how fanatics are made, brainwashing etc making them believe actually, further more, religeon has caused most wars, next to economic reasons. in other words, again watch startrek dude!!, in 50 years we meet other people from other planets (yeyeye, read anybook, the possibilty of life outsided earth only in our solar system is about 40 planets should have the same conditions as earth, meaning 70% water, 1 bar atmosphere and yes its unlikely that there hassent landed a small meteorite with aminoacid..... if you want cool books, get books by Stephan Hawkins ) so screw religeon, and hello science!!!

legacy-eez_
06-07-2004, 10:19 PM
:( = probably meant, "sad to leave you guys/this community - for the meantime"

Seriously though, good luck. Maybe you can make a note of all the homes you visit, perhaps you can rack up a point system for conversions similar to UTs kill count, you know, M-M-M-Monster Conversion!!

To CatShavers post.. :weird:

legacy-Loeder
06-07-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by eez_
:( = probably meant, "sad to leave you guys/this community - for the meantime"

Seriously though, good luck. Maybe you can make a note of all the homes you visit, perhaps you can rack up a point system for conversions similar to UTs kill count, you know, M-M-M-Monster Conversion!!

To CatShavers post.. :weird:

:o well if he rings my door ringing me out of bed trying to save my soul for the good lord :rolleyes:, i sure as hell can do the same to him, only then to the good side of the force ! get out while you still can ....S C I E N C E :up:

Folk
06-07-2004, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by KillerDude
No, there would be wars anyway. I have a bunch of friends who think Jesus was, in fact, killed by the Jews (me) and we're... Well... Friends.

So your buddy thinks his fairy tale was killed by a bunch of your goat herding ancestors two thousand years ago? And you're still friends? Will wonders never cease. :rolleyes:

Is it not patently obvious that people still getting worked up over this crap is the root of the world's problems? Sept. 11 was all about religous wackos trying to prove that their particular brand of lunacy is the "correct" brand, and our own personal idiot G.W. Bush has on two different occasions referred to the abortion in Iraq as a "crusade", which just fans the flames even hotter in the Muslim community.

We're freaking doomed because of this.

legacy-Bigcheeese
06-07-2004, 11:08 PM
hay i didnt know there where so many mormans around here. i my self am and have been thinking about the 2 years w/o a PC i want to go but...

ne way my mom owns an LDS book store here in NC.

also Singles ward is the funnyest movie i have ever seen, thats right you can have a funny movey w/o sex in it...

ne way have fun and you will come back a varry difernt person.

legacy-DarKnyt
06-07-2004, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by johnt2489
Is this what Mormons believe, or not?
Just curious.

You're not just curious, you're just trolling. Nice try, though. :D

P.S. You and I both know you've likely never read the source material that quote comes from - only the sensationalistic negative propaganda that uses it in a shell game where the premise is usually contrived and the outcome only serves the author and not truth.

legacy-Bigcheeese
06-07-2004, 11:43 PM
ummmm WTF the guy that posted that has NO clue what he is talking about. Um if you want a real simple thing of what we believ here is a link...

http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1/13

legacy-Nightbear6
06-07-2004, 11:46 PM
Good luck and enjoy the two years. I hung out with some cool missionaries back in my home town.

legacy-regniguy
06-07-2004, 11:55 PM
I'm not a Mormon, nor believe in the particular faith....but good luck in the paths your bike takes you.

legacy-KillerDude
06-08-2004, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by Folk
So your buddy thinks his fairy tale was killed by a bunch of your goat herding ancestors two thousand years ago? And you're still friends? Will wonders never cease. :rolleyes:

Is it not patently obvious that people still getting worked up over this crap is the root of the world's problems? Sept. 11 was all about religous wackos trying to prove that their particular brand of lunacy is the "correct" brand, and our own personal idiot G.W. Bush has on two different occasions referred to the abortion in Iraq as a "crusade", which just fans the flames even hotter in the Muslim community.

We're freaking doomed because of this.

Actually, we're doomed anyways. The Ancient Mayans predicted the world would end in 2006, and were only off on their other predictions by a few days. Why mention this? To add to the big ball of joy amounting in this thread.

No offense to you, dude, but its people like you that totally piss me off. Let me believe what I want to believe. I don't insult and totally rape your beliefs, do I? Just put yourself in my shoes.

Next time you want to respond smartly: "I contend that we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, then you will know why I dismiss yours."

-Stephen F. Roberts

And for the record, God does exist, except he's a bit of a minimalist. I'd go on, but I'd be banned from these boards in a second.

legacy-Radeon285
06-08-2004, 12:42 AM
TWD, all I gotta say is if you dont wanna do it, dont dude, being forced into **** sucks ass. I wouldnt let it happen. If thats not the case tho, good luck with everything dude, by the time you get back you will be checking out the newest Unreal Engine3 game :D So thats always a plus, also thanks for the help with my map man, it wouldnt be half as fun without your suggestions.

legacy-Ihr Feind
06-08-2004, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by DrThodt
Aye, one of my friends should be coming back from Africa soon.

Nice signature DrThodt, lol

legacy-depierce
06-08-2004, 01:08 AM
TWD: Before you go, a few sage words of wisdom:

1) Do your best to have a well-informed conscience;
2) Always obey your conscience;
3) Do as you would be done by;
4) _Always_ do as you would be done by.

legacy-ErecT
06-08-2004, 02:34 AM
I would beat my family up if they tried to send me on some bullsh|t like that.

I hate religions.. Its for weak people and it only causes bad things, like wars.
Who was the moron that came up with religion really? He must have very good imagination since everything just goes against everything that can be proven.

Leave your family behind, start a new life without them, get a job and play some UT ffs.

UnrealGrrl
06-08-2004, 02:49 AM
goodluck TWD... hope its a good journey for you and we'll miss you around the unreal universe!

legacy-Jermaine_X
06-08-2004, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by Ihr Feind
so what are you going to play violent games your entire life, then instatly be up and like "Jesus loves you!"

Typical ****ing christian. these games aren't real you know.

legacy-depierce
06-08-2004, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by Jermaine_X
these games aren't real you know.

OMG THEZE GAMEZ AREN"T REAL EPIC PLZ FIX!!!!111111111

legacy-DrThodt
06-08-2004, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by depierce
OMG THEZE GAMEZ AREN"T REAL EPIC PLZ FIX!!!!111111111

OMG plz ban epic!11

legacy-Manta-Darkstorm
06-08-2004, 03:53 AM
A religion that advertises is not a religion. Am I being more bold than going door to door questioning other's beliefs? I don't think so...

Save yourself buddy, 2 years that you can devote to yourself and the people that you *care* about - Everyone has to believe in something, but never do so blindly. My 2 cents -


-Manta-

legacy-herryoyo
06-08-2004, 04:17 AM
Good luck, good sir.

May your travels be fruitful, and may you learn a bit more about this groovy little planet you inhabit.

legacy-djini_hades
06-08-2004, 04:21 AM
TED: Dougal, you know you can praise God with sleep?
DOUGAL: Can you, Ted?
TED: Yes. It's a way of thanking him for a tiring day.
DOUGAL: God, there's lots of ways you can praise God, isn't there, Ted? Like that time you told me to praise him by, you know, just leaving the room.
TED: That was a good one, yes.

#Me... I praise god by gaming...

legacy-Roulette
06-08-2004, 04:23 AM
I think those that want to find religion go looking for it and generally find the one that fits them best.

Good luck on your.. journey? Mission? Whatever.

Tell me... on the average 2 year trip... how many converts do most people actually really get? I've never heard of anyone converting. At best, the visits are tolerated. At worst... well for example, my neighbor always carried his shotgun to the door to get his point across faster.

legacy-ErecT
06-08-2004, 04:37 AM
I pitty the people who grow up with parants in a religion like that. Brainwashed from the start...

No matter what religion I might have I would never show it to my children. They should be free to make there own dissision. Just like I did when I was 3 years old. I came to the conclusion that there was no god.
God, I had more brains as a three year old then so many people in every age...

Even though the coolest swearword is from the religius society
"gosh darn it" :p

legacy-DrThodt
06-08-2004, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by ErecT
I pitty the people who grow up with parants in a religion like that. Brainwashed from the start...

No matter what religion I might have I would never show it to my children. They should be free to make there own dissision. Just like I did when I was 3 years old. I came to the conclusion that there was no god.
God, I had more brains as a three year old then so many people in every age...

Even though the coolest swearword is from the religius society
"gosh darn it" :p

The only 'brains' you're showing right now are those of an inconsiderate self-righteous bigot.

legacy-Shakermaker
06-08-2004, 04:40 AM
Good luck during your travels, TWD. Just keep a few things in mind:

- what you believe is not necessarily THE truth; its just YOUR truth.
- when you meet people that practise another religion, don't evangelise. That would be quite condescending.
- Listen to people from other faiths. You actually might learn something (for example the fact that most religions strive for the same thing: peace).

Our world is getting smaller every minute. The only way to live peacefully together is to accept the fact that we are all different.

legacy-djini_hades
06-08-2004, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by DrThodt
The only 'brains' you're showing right now are those of an inconsiderate self-righteous bigot.

I see you're still churning out thoughtfull, constructive comments...

legacy-DrThodt
06-08-2004, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by djini_hades
I see you're still churning out thoughtfull, constructive comments...

I see you're still being ignorant with that sig. It is entirely accurate, and for you to think it's false proves how little you know.

legacy-djini_hades
06-08-2004, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by DrThodt

I see you're still a noob whose opinion doesn't matter, but life goes on even with you in it. Somehow. And about the quote in your sig from me, It is entirely accurate, and for you to think it's false proves how little you know.

You changed you tune pretty fast... <5 mins after posting this you edit it to say:


Originally posted by DrThodt

I see I see you're still being ignorant with that sig. It is entirely accurate, and for you to think it's false proves how little you know.

Yeah, 'cause people take your advise don't they... :haha: Oh if you had a brain cell for every time someone thanked you for your advise eh?

. o O (Hmm... maybe you do!) ;P

Tell you what, why don't you give me the 'here comes the science' that supports the claim made in that sig... If I remember correctly, you said you stripped down your detail (after someone made a snide comment about a screenshot you took and laughed at the úber member's ghey computer that couldn't render UT2k4 when he normally minces around saying how wonderfull he is) because your ping was terrible, so by increasing your frame-rate on a poor connection, it somehow balances it out...

I guess using that theory, I can cancel my broard-band, and get a 56k moden and still snipe, so long as I change my FPS to 150 or something by turning the candy down.

Or maybe if my computer was fast enough, I could send all my IP packets my carrier pigeon!

legacy-DrThodt
06-08-2004, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by djini_hades
You changed you tune pretty fast... <5 mins after posting this you edit it to say:



Yeah, 'cause people take your advise don't they... :haha: Oh if you had a brain cell for every time someone thanked you for your advise eh?

. o O (Hmm... maybe you do!) ;P

Tell you what, why don't you give me the 'here comes the science' that supports the claim made in that sig... If I remember correctly, you said you stripped down your detail (after someone made a snide comment about a screenshot you took and laughed at the úber member's ghey computer that couldn't render UT2k4 when he normally minces around saying how wonderfull he is) because your ping was terrible, so by increasing your frame-rate on a poor connection, it somehow balances it out...

I guess using that theory, I can cancel my broard-band, and get a 56k moden and still snipe, so long as I change my FPS to 150 or something by turning the candy down.

Or maybe if my computer was fast enough, I could send all my IP packets my carrier pigeon!

What in the hell did you just say? I see words but none of it was formed into an understandable sentence.

EDIT: Oh and by the way, quit thread hijacking, it's for asshats.

legacy-ErecT
06-08-2004, 05:18 AM
I still dislike that so many people are being brainwashed from birth...

This is a true story:
In germany there are plenty of theese religius societys. They dont watch TV and have hardly any contact with anyone outsider there community.
In one of theese small villages a couple got married. After being married for 9 years without having any children they went to the doctor and asked why they wassn´t blessed with children.
It turned out that they didn´t know you had to have sex to get children. This happened ~ one month ago.
Now german tax money will go to a project to inform about sex in villages like this.

religion.... *sigh*

legacy-DrThodt
06-08-2004, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by ErecT
I still dislike that so many people are being brainwashed from birth...

This is a true story:
In germany there are plenty of theese religius societys. They dont watch TV and have hardly any contact with anyone outsider there community.
In one of theese small villages a couple got married. After being married for 9 years without having any children they went to the doctor and asked why they wassn´t blessed with children.
It turned out that they didn´t know you had to have sex to get children. This happened ~ one month ago.
Now german tax money will go to a project to inform about sex in villages like this.

religion.... *sigh*

This is a true story...
One time I ate mac n cheese and I asked my mom why I had cheese on my teeth. She said because the cheese sauce is yellow.

Kraft.... *sigh*

legacy-ErecT
06-08-2004, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by DrThodt
This is a true story...
One time I ate mac n cheese and I asked my mom why I had cheese on my teeth. She said because the cheese sauce is yellow.

Kraft.... *sigh*

As someone said:
I see you're still churning out thoughtfull, constructive comments...

legacy-djini_hades
06-08-2004, 05:28 AM
What bit are you having trouble with?

Couple of typos, but nothing gramatically wrong (Or so wrong it becomes ambigious or non-sensical)... no colloqualisms (I try to avoid them on international boards) or ones that would nto be understood by Americans and English... Or is that where I went wrong? Is English you second language maybe?

Did I pitch the language too high? Did I miss my 'target audience' and am just expecting too much of your comprehension?

I'll make it easier to read if you want, maybe use shorter sentances, and not so many 'big words'...?

Although you really should be trying to explain how calling someone an "inconsiderate self-righteous bigot" because he does not believe in a god (or the one you believe in) doesn't open yourself up to being called exactly the same thing...

BTW: this thred itself isn't exactly ON topic anyway, and I think it's a bit of a cheek for YOU to tell anyone not to thred-jack...

legacy-DrThodt
06-08-2004, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by djini_hades
What bit are you having trouble with?

Couple of typos, but nothing gramatically wrong (Or so wrong it becomes ambigious or non-sensical)... no colloqualisms (I try to avoid them on international boards) or ones that would nto be understood by Americans and English... Or is that where I went wrong? Is English you second language maybe?

Did I pitch the language too high? Did I miss my 'target audience' and am just expecting too much of your comprehension?

I'll make it easier to read if you want, maybe use shorter sentances, and not so many 'big words'...?

Although you really should be trying to explain how calling someone an "inconsiderate self-righteous bigot" because he does not believe in a god (or the one you believe in) doesn't open yourself up to being called exactly the same thing...

BTW: this thred itself isn't exactly ON topic anyway, and I think it's a bit of a cheek for YOU to tell anyone not to thred-jack...

5 minutes on dictionary.com doesn't make you anymore intelligent than you are. Now please stop thread hijacking.

EDIT: and in response too..

Although you really should be trying to explain how calling someone an "inconsiderate self-righteous bigot" because he does not believe in a god (or the one you believe in) doesn't open yourself up to being called exactly the same thing...

If you would bother reading, which you never do, he isn't just saying he doesn't believe in god. He's tearing down anyone who believes in religion or chooses to practice one.

legacy-djini_hades
06-08-2004, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by DrThodt
This is a true story...
One time I ate mac n cheese and I asked my mom why I had cheese on my teeth. She said because the cheese sauce is yellow.

Kraft.... *sigh*

I see you get your brains from your mother :D

legacy-DrThodt
06-08-2004, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by djini_hades
I see you get your brains from your mother :D

reported :up:

legacy-djini_hades
06-08-2004, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by DrThodt
reported :up:

Who to? Mummy again?:haha:

So if you see me with any WL we can read that as 'they agree with you', your IQ<>your mothers.

However, if you see me with 0 WL, I think we can assume my comment is not WL worthy, and they agree with me...

"5 minutes on dictionary.com doesn't make you anymore intelligent than you are"... If I was you, I'd try *thinking* for 5 mins before posting as that WILL make you look smarter than you are...

legacy-herryoyo
06-08-2004, 06:00 AM
I figure I'll post again to wish TWD well as that particular topic of discussion has been lost for the time being.

legacy-ErecT
06-08-2004, 06:06 AM
Im fine with anyone chosing there religion and live by it.
I do however dislike that so many are forced into religion by birth and arn´t given a fair chance to choose for themselfs.
I also dislike people tho think it is right to kill in the name of muhammed or any religius stuff like that.
I hate wars, and religion is a common reason to war.

I do belive that religion have a good impact on some people. People who are lost and seek comfort and cant get it anywere else. This is when they choose to do so, not when they are being tricked/forced into it.

IMO, just use common sense and belive science. Science is my religion cause it is the only thing that can be proven.
Besides, if there was a god, why haven´t epic released there patch yet?

Anyways, gl to u TWD, I do hope you enjoy your trip even though I rather have you playing and doing other unreal stuff.. :)

legacy-DarKnyt
06-08-2004, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by ErecT
I still dislike that so many people are being brainwashed from birth...

This is a true story:
In germany there are plenty of theese religius societys. They dont watch TV and have hardly any contact with anyone outsider there community.
In one of theese small villages a couple got married. After being married for 9 years without having any children they went to the doctor and asked why they wassn´t blessed with children.
It turned out that they didn´t know you had to have sex to get children. This happened ~ one month ago.
Now german tax money will go to a project to inform about sex in villages like this.

religion.... *sigh*

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with Mormonism per se.

While I respect your right to your own opinion, do realize that the argument that religion is only for the weak really has more to do with rationalizing why it's okay to reject religion than anything else. Many who believe in religion would say the opposite is true. :)

Edit: The main reason I say this is because of the emphasis on negativity in your posts about religion instead of stating positives about your own belief system, i.e. science.. This belies a need to either tear down or rationalize away something which makes you feel uncomfortable and perhaps somewhat guilty for not being a part of. Just an observation.

legacy-herryoyo
06-08-2004, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by DarKnyt
Sorry, but this has nothing to do with Mormonism per se.

While I respect your right to your own opinion, do realize that the argument that religion is only for the weak really has more to do with rationalizing why it's okay to reject religion than anything else. Many who believe in religion would say the opposite is true. :)

Man, I'd love to get into that debate in a different thread :D

legacy--Twista-
06-08-2004, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by ErecT
I still dislike that so many people are being brainwashed from birth...

This is a true story:
In germany there are plenty of theese religius societys. They dont watch TV and have hardly any contact with anyone outsider there community.
In one of theese small villages a couple got married. After being married for 9 years without having any children they went to the doctor and asked why they wassn´t blessed with children.
It turned out that they didn´t know you had to have sex to get children. This happened ~ one month ago.
Now german tax money will go to a project to inform about sex in villages like this.

religion.... *sigh*

These weren´t germans,they come from different cultures both(If I remember it right)and I´ve never seen any of these "religious societys" and I´m german too.

legacy-KobeSrB
06-08-2004, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Equalize
And I thought parents forcing me to goto church every sunday morning was bad enough.

Me 2
I Never hate it
I Awlays solve my problems there
its peacefully and quit :)

legacy-djini_hades
06-08-2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by KobeSrB
Me 2
I Never hate it
I Awlays solve my problems there
its peacefully and quit :)

I still say: I praise god by gaming...

---8<---

TED: Dougal, you know you can praise God with sleep?
DOUGAL: Can you, Ted?
TED: Yes. It's a way of thanking him for a tiring day.
DOUGAL: God, there's lots of ways you can praise God, isn't there, Ted? Like that time you told me to praise him by, you know, just leaving the room.
TED: That was a good one, yes.

legacy-Tobbe
06-08-2004, 09:25 AM
Gl,hf.

I personally dont like it when i get home visits from religious groups though, but people always have the option to close the door so.. ;)
Dont take it personally if that happens.

I was in a very zealous church myself once,Church of christ,a lot of missionary "duty" in that church as well but it didnt include going from door to door.Thank god im outta there. :D

AmericanWoman
06-08-2004, 09:39 AM
Good luck, and may God always speak to your heart.:heart:


"God created man. Man created religion"

legacy-BabyNuke
06-08-2004, 09:47 AM
Is this something you want to do? You don't seem to be too excited about it. I thought, judging from the thread title, you actually had some sort of terminal illness.

legacy-Tobbe
06-08-2004, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by BabyNuke
Is this something you want to do? You don't seem to be too excited about it. I thought, judging from the thread title, you actually had some sort of terminal illness.
Yeah,same here.I thought someone was about to die at first. :confused:

legacy-DarKnyt
06-08-2004, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by BabyNuke
Is this something you want to do? You don't seem to be too excited about it. I thought, judging from the thread title, you actually had some sort of terminal illness.

lol - I agree it can be a daunting idea at first - but once you're there, most people can't imagine having turned down the opportunity. It's really hard to have the proper perspective his side of it - it's while in it and esp looking back that it really becomes clear how important it is - as it is with most things in life.

Looking back, it honestly scares me when I think about what kind of person I'd be if I hadn't gone. There is just so much growing and maturing that happens when you forget yourself for 2 years and live only to serve and help others.

legacy-Tobbe
06-08-2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by DarKnyt
lol - I agree it can be a daunting idea at first - but once you're there, most people can't imagine having turned down the opportunity. It's really hard to have the proper perspective his side of it - it's while in it and esp looking back that it really becomes clear how important it is - as it is with most things in life.

Looking back, it honestly scares me when I think about what kind of person I'd be if I hadn't gone. There is just so much growing and maturing that happens when you forget yourself for 2 years and live only to serve and help others.
Uhm,you´re a mormon?


Originally posted by DarKnyt
There is just so much growing and maturing that happens when you forget yourself for 2 years and live only to serve and help others.
I could say a lot here but...
Its a gaming forum. ;) :up:

legacy-DarKnyt
06-08-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Tobbe
Uhm,you´re a mormon?


I could say a lot here but...
Its a gaming forum. ;) :up:

Lol- I suppose you haven't been reading the thread then? It would have been pretty obvious by now. ;)

Again, this is all just sharing opinions, no one needs feel that their opinion is wrong - we all have different ones and there's nothing wrong with that.

legacy-Tobbe
06-08-2004, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by DarKnyt
Lol- I suppose you haven't been reading the thread then? It would have been pretty obvious by now. ;)

Ok,i missed that.
It can be hard to read 5 pages just to be up to date with the discussion in one thread. ;)


Originally posted by DarKnyt
Again, this is all just sharing opinions, no one needs feel that their opinion is wrong - we all have different ones and there's nothing wrong with that.

Yeah,but i dont want to get down "deep and dirty" talking about religion now in this forum if you know what i mean.
Peace :D

legacy-DarKnyt
06-08-2004, 10:33 AM
Ok,i missed that.
It can be hard to read 5 threads just to be up to date with the discussion in one thread. ;)

True - it can be pretty tedious and time consuming to sift through 4 pages of back and forth to get a clear picture



Yeah,but i dont want to get down "deep and dirty" talking about religion now in this forum if you know what i mean.
Peace :D

Agreed - this probably isn't (ok as the mods have pointed out - it REALLY isn't :D ) the place for such discussions.

In the end, we all just have to agree to disagree. We can't expect to force people to accept our POV as "gospel" - I think it can be easy to just get caught up in wanting to be understood.

legacy-TWD
06-08-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by ErecT
I still dislike that so many people are being brainwashed from birth...

This is a true story:
In germany there are plenty of theese religius societys. They dont watch TV and have hardly any contact with anyone outsider there community.
In one of theese small villages a couple got married. After being married for 9 years without having any children they went to the doctor and asked why they wassn´t blessed with children.
It turned out that they didn´t know you had to have sex to get children. This happened ~ one month ago.
Now german tax money will go to a project to inform about sex in villages like this.

religion.... *sigh*

Unconfirmed but probably false: http://snopes.com/pregnant/nosex.asp

That being said I resent the thought that I have somehow been brainwashed by birth cuz it's not true.

legacy-nublar
06-08-2004, 11:58 AM
HAHA

legacy-Scifience
06-08-2004, 12:06 PM
GSM phone = Your Best Friend :p

My cousin went on a mormon mission to Argentina about a year ago. I don't really see the point, but if you want to do it, go for it and try to have fun! :)

legacy-Shuri
06-08-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by djini_hades
TED: Dougal, you know you can praise God with sleep?
DOUGAL: Can you, Ted?
TED: Yes. It's a way of thanking him for a tiring day.
DOUGAL: God, there's lots of ways you can praise God, isn't there, Ted? Like that time you told me to praise him by, you know, just leaving the room.
TED: That was a good one, yes.

I remember that episode :D

legacy-EntropicLqd
06-08-2004, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Firebert
....well, technically Mormons are christians, but to ignore that argument....
If almost everything Jesus said about himself, his reason for living, dying, and rising again was incorrect, yes ... I'd say that Mormons are Christians.
:bulb:

legacy-Nut_Bag
06-08-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by DrThodt
This is a true story...
One time I ate mac n cheese and I asked my mom why I had cheese on my teeth. She said because the cheese sauce is yellow.

Kraft.... *sigh*



Originally posted by djini_hades
I see you get your brains from your mother :D

I was thinking the same thing


:D

legacy-HerbofGPL
06-08-2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by DarKnyt
There is just so much growing and maturing that happens when you forget yourself for 2 years and live only to serve and help others.

Ever worked in a minimum wage job for a few years?
You pretty much live only to serve others and have to forget yourself to hang on to your sanity.
I wouldn't say its particularly character-building though. ;)

legacy-DarKnyt
06-08-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by EntropicLqd
If almost everything Jesus said about himself, his reason for living, dying, and rising again was incorrect, yes ... I'd say that Mormons are Christians.
:bulb:

I'm not entirely sure what your point is, but I can assure you that Mormons fit most any definition of Christianity.

Now, I am quite aware that many attempt to REDEFINE what constitutes Christianity to exclude Mormons, but in so doing they often exclude various other religions that most ordinary people would call Christian. What it really boils down to is that I don't have the exact same beliefs as you do so you attempt to push my religion outside your definition of Christian.

Here are a couple of basic belief statements that illustrate how Mormons fall under the umbrella of Christianity.

"The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 121)

"We, of course, accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior. The dominant figure in the history of the world, the only perfect Man who ever walked the earth, the living Son of the living God. He is our Savior and our Redeemer through whose atoning sacrifice has come the opportunity of eternal life." - (Gordon B. Hinckley, current President of the Church)

And the first Arcticle of Faith:
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Ever worked in a minimum wage job for a few years?
You pretty much live only to serve others and have to forget yourself to hang on to your sanity.
I wouldn't say its particularly character-building though.

Now turn that around and work that job, not for minimum wage, not even for free, but YOU pay THEM to be there working that job. It's a pretty significant difference. Your scenario still has you only doing it for yourself, really :)

I've never had to work for minimum wage though as I always owned my own business growing up that grossed me about 1,000/week in HS/College. That was some hard character building work though - moreso than I'd have ever gotten in an hourly job.

legacy-shawneboy
06-08-2004, 01:29 PM
Wow, this is very interesting twd. If this is what you have to do to honor your beliefs then I wish you good luck with your 2 year mission.

legacy-duskboy
06-08-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Tobbe
I was in a very zealous church myself once,Church of christ,a lot of missionary "duty" in that church as well but it didnt include going from door to door.Thank god im outta there. :D

100% ironic. [last part]. :haha:

legacy-PxRGrimJack
06-08-2004, 02:03 PM
TWD, while I wish you the best....come back to gaming safe & sound

stay off my doorstep :cool:

LDS & SDA not welcome here...except as snacks for the rottie in the yard

legacy-DarKnyt
06-08-2004, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by PxRGrimJack
TWD, while I wish you the best....come back to gaming safe & sound

stay off my doorstep :cool:

LDS & SDA not welcome here...except as snacks for the rottie in the yard

So can we send the Jehovah's Witnesses around? :D

legacy-Hedge_o_Matic
06-08-2004, 02:36 PM
Mormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another world and that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on his home world. He brought his wife to this world, a woman he had married on the other world. She is, essential a goddess.
In his present god-state, he rules our world. He has a body of flesh and bones. Since god and his wife are both exalted persons, they each possess physical bodies. In their exalted states as deities, they produce spirit children that grow and mature in the spiritual realm. The first spirit born was Jesus. Afterwards Lucifer was born along with the rest of us. So, Mormonism teaches that we all pre-existed in the spirit realm having been produced from the union of god and his goddess wife. Therefore, we all existed in spirit form before coming down down and entering the bodies of human babies that are being born on earth. During this ‘compression' into the infant state, the memories of their pre-existence is 'veiled.'

This sounds like the backstory of a TC mod! And having studied many religions, I have to say that just because any number of people believe something, doesn't mean anything. People are basically gullible and/or stupid. The entire focus of modern religious thought is on avoiding the gaping holes in logic and scientifically disprovable religious dogma. Even the clearly recorded history of a doubious modern religious founder (such as Young) makes no difference.

I'd imagine that a religion that was actually true, as opposed to mythology, would be much more convincing than your average fairy tale. A true religion, by definition, would be self-evident. After all, this is the supposed creator if the universe, right? This is the being that balanced gravity against the expansion of the universe, and carefully set the weak nuclear force at its current level to allow stellar ignition, and yet the best it can come up with to convince some short-lived biologicals is to send completely average people door to door telling stories?

Sorry, but the waste of time and effort on religion is very irritating to me. If "religious" people wanted to help humanity, they would all dedicate two years of their lives to working at a homeless shelter, or ecological conservation. Just getting someone to believe your particular mythology doesn't impress.

legacy-Gumbypants
06-08-2004, 02:43 PM
This whole thread is kind of funny if you think about it:
A mormon guy posts a 3 sentence statement about going on a mission (with the intent of fostering religious discussions and participating in a discourse centered around spiritual beliefs in areas that have been defined as needing such spiritual support)
on a VIDEO GAME website.

Not only a video game website, but a video game which inherently centers around death and murder.

And what has this clever fellow done? Actually started a religious discussion that encourages people to share their beliefs and synthesize them into persuasive truths

ON a VIDEO GAME WEBSITE

Part of me wants to quote the earlier part of this thread which slammed Steve Young for playing football as HIS MISSION...a couple of you even suggested that he keep playing UT as his mission...

What's funny is that you all are still participating even though you disagree. You want to share YOUR opinion, what YOU think is a religious truth, giving him a chance to respond and creating a dialogue.

TWD is great. He IS doing what Steve Young does. He made a space for his religion in a forum about something that is inherently anti-religious, and encouraged a dialogue about those religious beliefs. Hell, it's worked for 5 pages...that's way longer than my post about the Satore monster pack,and it actually has to do with UT!

So all you ppl that flame this guy and politely explain to him that religion aint your cup of tea, just sit there and realize for a second that, whether you like it or not, you are always already participating...

legacy-EntropicLqd
06-08-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by DarKnyt
So can we send the Jehovah's Witnesses around? :D
:haha:

Re the previous post - I was just baiting you to see if you could be drawn further. Dunno why really- just in a bit of a cranky mood I guess. So sorry. :o

We could get into a long and tortuous discussion about the differences in our beliefs. Although it would be interesting, this board is not the place.

legacy-PxRGrimJack
06-08-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by DarKnyt
So can we send the Jehovah's Witnesses around? :D

sure...shes a growing dog...got a healthy appitite

honestly I was thinking JW when I put 7th Day Adventist

legacy-DarKnyt
06-08-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Hedge_o_Matic
Sorry, but the waste of time and effort on religion is very irritating to me. If "religious" people wanted to help humanity, they would all dedicate two years of their lives to working at a homeless shelter, or ecological conservation. Just getting someone to believe your particular mythology doesn't impress.

The idea isn't to convert people so you feel better about your religion. The practical upshot is about bringing people into a belief/value system so that they can make a significant change in their life and by so doing, will want to contribute to those around them and make the world a better place. To say nothing of the spiritual ramifications of usch a change.

You basically have two choices - either take people out of slums (the homeless shelter) or take the slums out of the people (religion). The former will never work, it's just a band-aid and solves no real problems long-term. You're just changing circumstances and not people.

The only way a real lasting and effectual difference can be made is for people to change themselves and become part of the solution. Imagine if instead of just meeting the physical needs of a homeless shelter, those therein could become self-reliant and motivated enough to turn their lives around and go out and server OTHERS instead of BEING served.

legacy-BabyNuke
06-08-2004, 03:17 PM
I couldn't spread a religion I don't believe in though.

Firebert
06-08-2004, 03:19 PM
sorry, but the waste of time and effort on religion is very irritating to me. If "religious" people wanted to help humanity, they would all dedicate two years of their lives to working at a homeless shelter

The church gives a ton of money to people, around $649,215 according to the
Millionare Hall of Fame Charity List (http://millionairehalloffame.com/CharityList.php)
also somewhere along the line somebody said that religion should be a lifestyle, no alchohal, tobacco, coffee, tea, drugs, pre marital sex, tattoos, etc sounds like a lifestlye to me

legacy-MrCamper
06-08-2004, 04:17 PM
BY ALL MEANS Go and preach and witness your beliefs, but you can break the cult status by simply NOT WEARING A WHITE SHIRT AND TIE.

legacy-DarKnyt
06-08-2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by MrCamper
BY ALL MEANS Go and preach and witness your beliefs, but you can break the cult status by simply NOT WEARING A WHITE SHIRT AND TIE.

Heh, heh - yeah he should throw on a tank top or something - that would be a riot ;)

Wait - that means . . . everybody who wears a white shirt and tie is in a cult!!:eek:

Man am I glad my client is business casual here. :D

Besides, wearing a white shirt and tie is how people tell your a missionary - or in my case, often mistake you for the FBI. That was always cool. I even got mistaken for the military security clearance goons once on a military base. Those people command respect, I tell ya.

legacy-BabyNuke
06-08-2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Firebert
The church gives a ton of money to people, around $649,215 according to the
Millionare Hall of Fame Charity List (http://millionairehalloffame.com/CharityList.php)
also somewhere along the line somebody said that religion should be a lifestyle, no alchohal, tobacco, coffee, tea, drugs, pre marital sex, tattoos, etc sounds like a lifestlye to me

One church in my town is selling cheap beer in order to try and get more youth to the church :confused:

legacy-DarKnyt
06-08-2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Firebert
The church gives a ton of money to people, around $649,215 according to the
Millionare Hall of Fame Charity List (http://millionairehalloffame.com/CharityList.php)
also somewhere along the line somebody said that religion should be a lifestyle, no alchohal, tobacco, coffee, tea, drugs, pre marital sex, tattoos, etc sounds like a lifestlye to me

Heh, heh - the LDS church gives out SO MUCH more money than this it's not even funny.

It has a fast offering program whereby members fast one sunday a month and give the money they would have spent on food (plus extra if they can afford to) as a fast offering.

It's those funds and others that are used to help fund various charity efforts around the globe. From 1985 to 2003 the LDS church has donated $643 Million in total assistance to needy individuals in 154 countries. Almost $300 Million of that has come in the past 3 years.

legacy-Bigcheeese
06-08-2004, 04:46 PM
Did you know that the CIA is mostly mormans... why because they are trust worthy.

also the people that are in the army in my ward (like a congragation) they are all in special Forces and so is my brother.

says alot...

legacy-DarKnyt
06-08-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Bigcheeese
Did you know that the CIA is mostly mormans... why because they are trust worthy.

also the people that are in the army in my ward (like a congragation) they are all in special Forces and so is my brother.

says alot...

*Psst* *whispers* My sister is currently in the F - B - . . . *gurgle*
*gasp*
*thump*

legacy-bureaucrator
06-08-2004, 05:11 PM
Heavy stuff, my friend. Going from Unreal to Real like that...

My advise on the way:

Consider it as an assault mod. First, for a few years, you are the attacking team, from the outside towards the doors you are knocking on. Then, hopefully, its the other way round: returning to normality - perhaps letting the mormon thing behind - you are the one opening doors for the mormons knocking on your door...

Joking aside: good luck, and see you in a few years. Unrealism will prevail, dont worry. :)

Firebert
06-08-2004, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by DarKnyt
*Psst* *whispers* My sister is currently in the F - B - . . . *gurgle*
*gasp*
*thump*

my uncle used to design spy satellights, least that's what we think, he wasn't allowed to tell us much *click*i mean, he works at McDonalds...;)

http://www.shipoffools.com/church/ and people call us wierd...

legacy-Odds
06-08-2004, 06:15 PM
What kinda crazy religion prevents you from doing everything you enjoy. It's not your responsibility to teach the world. Just be a good person and enjoy life, man, anything more than that and you're a saint.

legacy-DrThodt
06-08-2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Gumbypants
This whole thread is kind of funny if you think about it:
A mormon guy posts a 3 sentence statement about going on a mission (with the intent of fostering religious discussions and participating in a discourse centered around spiritual beliefs in areas that have been defined as needing such spiritual support)
on a VIDEO GAME website.

Not only a video game website, but a video game which inherently centers around death and murder.

And what has this clever fellow done? Actually started a religious discussion that encourages people to share their beliefs and synthesize them into persuasive truths

ON a VIDEO GAME WEBSITE

Part of me wants to quote the earlier part of this thread which slammed Steve Young for playing football as HIS MISSION...a couple of you even suggested that he keep playing UT as his mission...

What's funny is that you all are still participating even though you disagree. You want to share YOUR opinion, what YOU think is a religious truth, giving him a chance to respond and creating a dialogue.

TWD is great. He IS doing what Steve Young does. He made a space for his religion in a forum about something that is inherently anti-religious, and encouraged a dialogue about those religious beliefs. Hell, it's worked for 5 pages...that's way longer than my post about the Satore monster pack,and it actually has to do with UT!

So all you ppl that flame this guy and politely explain to him that religion aint your cup of tea, just sit there and realize for a second that, whether you like it or not, you are always already participating...

That wasn't what he did at all. He said goodbye because it's time for his mission. You just overly read into it.

legacy-Gumbypants
06-08-2004, 06:46 PM
I posted after 6 pages of discussion about each persons personal beliefs about GOD on an UNREAL TOURNAMENT WEBSITE...As someone who has BEEN mormon, has understood the importance of SENSITIVE MISSIONARY WORK, I would argue that the claim I made is less radical than you might think...

legacy-DrThodt
06-08-2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Gumbypants
I posted after 6 pages of discussion about each persons personal beliefs about GOD on an UNREAL TOURNAMENT WEBSITE...As someone who has BEEN mormon, has understood the importance of SENSITIVE MISSIONARY WORK, I would argue that the claim I made is less radical than you might think...

AND I MIGHT ARGUE THAT TWD IS NOT YOU AND YOUR annoying misuse of CAPS does not GET YOUR POINT across.

legacy-Tropic
06-08-2004, 06:49 PM
Have fun TWD.

legacy-TWD
06-08-2004, 07:41 PM
Well he's right about what the effects of my thread have been, but it's not like I made it specifically to foster a discssion about religion on this forum. I did it beause I'm leaving, and I know there's quite a few people that would want to know what's going on.

legacy-(9)Felon
06-08-2004, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by Hedge_o_Matic
This sounds like the backstory of a TC mod! And having studied many religions, I have to say that just because any number of people believe something, doesn't mean anything. People are basically gullible and/or stupid. The entire focus of modern religious thought is on avoiding the gaping holes in logic and scientifically disprovable religious dogma. Even the clearly recorded history of a doubious modern religious founder (such as Young) makes no difference.

I'd imagine that a religion that was actually true, as opposed to mythology, would be much more convincing than your average fairy tale. A true religion, by definition, would be self-evident. After all, this is the supposed creator if the universe, right? This is the being that balanced gravity against the expansion of the universe, and carefully set the weak nuclear force at its current level to allow stellar ignition, and yet the best it can come up with to convince some short-lived biologicals is to send completely average people door to door telling stories?

Sorry, but the waste of time and effort on religion is very irritating to me. If "religious" people wanted to help humanity, they would all dedicate two years of their lives to working at a homeless shelter, or ecological conservation. Just getting someone to believe your particular mythology doesn't impress. [/B]

Sounds like communists and environmentals... nearly any system of thought or belief which has a suffix of "ISM". Faiths based on ideals or "science" can fit into this same scenario you have outlined.

What do YOU believe in? ConservationISM?

9fel

legacy-DarKnyt
06-08-2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by [GOD]Odds
What kinda crazy religion prevents you from doing everything you enjoy. It's not your responsibility to teach the world. Just be a good person and enjoy life, man, anything more than that and you're a saint.

But Odds - he already IS a saint . . . a Latter-day Saint
:D

legacy-WarHawK
06-08-2004, 09:02 PM
I would like to see you try to convert me you nazi!............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. . Just joking.

legacy-Birger
06-08-2004, 10:01 PM
i wish you a nice journey

as for me i do not believe in religion.
I believe in people believing what they want. THOUGH believing peacefully
i have to add, that im an evolutionist and that somehow for me, makes the creation impossible.
my one and truly "god" is Darwin,
but still i pay my christian church taxes here in Denmark
because the Church is a tradition, and thats what i see in religion/christianity, Tradition....

even though i feel that way, i still tend to believe in what Folk is sayin

Originally posted by Folk
It's irrelevant what they believe. It is still an off-shoot of the Judeo/Christian doctrines of fear and control, whose members include Muslims, Jews and Christians. Were it not for those doctrines, we would probably all be living in peace and happiness in a world where we foster the health of our planet and respect each other. As it is, the belief in an "afterlife", "heaven" and "godless infidels" causes the Judeo/Christian hordes to abuse our planet and subjugate each other.

It's maddening.
we would have a more peacefull world if religion as is,didnt exist.
because you never expect the spanish inquisition .. ;)
(here you can add any religion and any "inquisition" you like, depending on belief)

i would never slam a jehova witness in the face, if they were postulating the dinosaures never existed.
maybe if they woke me up at 7am sunday mornin, but thats another story :haha: .
Na im just fed up with people tryin to "turn me over"
actually mormones are the only "crusadertype" (heh) i respect,
when they hear my beleifs they accept and leave me alone.
And thats what its all about. Accept and respect your fellow beings

anyway..!
cool youre doin this for your own beleifs,
i hope im here in ut2k6 to hear about your experience... ;):up:



Originally posted by TWD
Unconfirmed but probably false: http://snopes.com/pregnant/nosex.asp



If thats an urban legend they´ve fooled allmost all european newspapers
not only the tabloids.

legacy-Bigcheeese
06-08-2004, 11:35 PM
somthing else would replace it... also i think your the first (or almost the first) person in this thread to make any sensice(sp? sorry)

ne way i am suprised Atari let us keep this thread. oh well atlest there are some smart people in here.

legacy-Nau|a
06-09-2004, 12:20 AM
I dont dislike mormons, I just hate it when people that dont even know my first name come to my door telling me stuff I dont care about. Thank god (or someone?) I dont get visits like that ofter.

Good luck though.:up:

legacy-KnifeWing
06-09-2004, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by Nau|a
I dont dislike mormons, I just hate it when people that dont even know my first name come to my door telling me stuff I dont care about. Thank god (or someone?) I dont get visits like that ofter.

Good luck though.:up:

When you do get those visits... try this. It works with any solicitors, old ladies are the best... it takes 'nads, but you have to try it...

With a serious face, ask them what color underwear they're wearing. I'm still waiting for one of them to actually mention a color, so far they've all been so nonplussed that they just go away ... the last one actually ran.

legacy-KodiakChaos
06-09-2004, 02:06 AM
Wow, thought I was the only Mormon playing these horribly violent video games :eek:

Anyway, best of luck to you TWD! Make sure you get lots of dinner times with families that know how to cook in the wards you visit :D

I'm sure you'll have some interesting stories to tell when you get back. Maybe you should consider making an [OT] post about it when that time comes.

Take care!

legacy-SirJusticE
06-09-2004, 02:29 AM
why do mormins dress the same way when there on a "mission"

legacy-DarKnyt
06-09-2004, 09:49 AM
It's irrelevant what they believe. It is still an off-shoot of the Judeo/Christian doctrines of fear and control, whose members include Muslims, Jews and Christians. Were it not for those doctrines, we would probably all be living in peace and happiness in a world where we foster the health of our planet and respect each other. As it is, the belief in an "afterlife", "heaven" and "godless infidels" causes the Judeo/Christian hordes to abuse our planet and subjugate each other.

It's maddening.

Now this is an interesting point - here's a thought on it.

You say if we didn't have Judeo/Christian religions influencing history then we could all be living in peace and happiness.

But under WHAT laws? Whether we like to admit it or not, this whole tossing religion and God out of the classroom, court, and gov't has happened relatively very recently. Our constitution and hence our laws were founded upon principles of religion. Our major societal boundaries come from such religious bylaws as the Ten Commandments among others. Heck - adultery is STILL a court martial offense in the military, even if we've pretty much gotten it out of civil law.

I'm just not seeing how a world devoid of religion would have produced a better or even equivalent set of societal rules. You're premise is that somehow we all would intuitively have this superior sense of how to treat each other. But we have the benefit (or prejudice) of centuries and even millennia of living under the laws propagated by religion - how can we seperate our thinking from them when it's those rules that condition how we approach things mentally.

Think for a second if there were no religion and practicality were the only rule. If we followed that line, then we'd all basically be like the animals living under survival of the fittest with no thought whatsoever to morality or the good of our neighbor. The whole idea of being nice to the planet and respecting each other ARE religious ideals.

True, some pretty heinous things have gone down under the name of religion. But without it, I can't see how we would have progressed to where we are now.

Just my thoughts.


When you do get those visits... try this. It works with any solicitors, old ladies are the best... it takes 'nads, but you have to try it...

With a serious face, ask them what color underwear they're wearing. I'm still waiting for one of them to actually mention a color, so far they've all been so nonplussed that they just go away ... the last one actually ran.

That's weak. :D

Speaking of 'nads - if you really have 'em, then show em off. The most notorious distractions are when people answer the door stark naked. Had a companion that had that happen to him and while he was able to keep going on with his introduction, his new-to-the-field companion never really recovered from the sight of her. ;)

why do mormins dress the same way when there on a "mission"

If by same way, you mean white shirt and tie - answered a page or so above - your question is actually part of the reason - It helps people recognize the missionaries and helps them to stand out from those around them. It also allows for a consistent face to be presented - besides, if you let 19 year old kids dress anyway they want, they'd hardly look like missionaries. :D

My wife and I have run into missionaries during travels to Sweden, Finland, and Hong Kong - it's nice to be able to recognize them so easily.

actually mormones are the only "crusadertype" (heh) i respect,
when they hear my beleifs they accept and leave me alone.
And thats what its all about. Accept and respect your fellow beings

That's good to hear as that's what the intent is. If you're happy with what you've got and aren't ready to hear more then I would usually ask if we could do anything for them, like take out their trash etc and then move on. Sometimes people confuse us with the more pushy door to door proselyters.

legacy-ErecT
06-09-2004, 10:21 AM
The only cool mormon I know of was the main character in the movie "Orgazmo". OMG did that movie rock.
A mormon participating in a pornmovie, using an gun to to give people orgasms.. Was fun when he shot that old woman.. :p

legacy-Tobbe
06-09-2004, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by ErecT
The only cool mormon I know of was the main character in the movie "Orgazmo". OMG did that movie rock.
A mormon participating in a pornmovie, using an gun to to give people orgasms.. Was fun when he shot that old woman.. :p
Stfu :up:

legacy-Timonator
06-09-2004, 12:07 PM
for me religion is nothing els than... uhm wtf am i doing?

i mean:
good luck and have a lot of fun on your 2 year journey/mission :)

legacy-TWD
06-09-2004, 12:11 PM
Yeah uhuh science is so much better. Yes the science that taught us evolution that was used by the europeans to obliterate the entire continent of africa, leaving it in complete ruins afterwards. The same science that hitler used as an excuse to attempt the genocide of an entire race. Yes we'd all be perfectly peacefull with just science...

Firebert
06-09-2004, 12:19 PM
I'm not saying science is evil but you cant say religion is evil and science is good. Both have caused alot of good in the world, and both have done alot of bad, sure with religion thoasands of people were killed in the crusades, but science allow some trigger happy texans to drop thousands of missles on innocent citezen's backyards, plus the nuke, guns, even knives are all ways to kill people invented by science, if there were only religion people would have to try to kill eachother like civilized men. I'm not saying we shouldn't have science, i'm just saying you cant say that science is good and religion is bad, its comparing the best of one thing and the worst of another, it doesn't work

legacy-JAM8588
06-09-2004, 01:00 PM
TWD,

You've got a huge amount of faith in you to do what you're doing. I admire that. You'll need every bit as well since some (many?) of the things mentioned in this thread will happen to you. The thing most faiths are missing are people willing to endure this. That's why many of them are slowly being killed.

Take care.

btw - science, like religion and everything else on this planet (except animals - not sure about plants) is a "thing". A "thing" cannot be good or evil. It can only be put to use by humans for good or evil purposes (regardless of intent).

legacy-HerbofGPL
06-09-2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Firebert
but science allow some trigger happy texans to drop thousands of missles on innocent citezen's backyards

If you're talking about recent conflicts I think you'll find religion plays a pretty big role in it too.
After all, Dumbya does believe he was chosen by god to bomb several small nations into rubble.

Likewise, the people hes supposedly after are a fairly religious lot too iirc.

legacy-Birger
06-09-2004, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by TWD
Yeah uhuh science is so much better. Yes the science that taught us evolution that was used by the europeans to obliterate the entire continent of africa, leaving it in complete ruins afterwards. The same science that hitler used as an excuse to attempt the genocide of an entire race. Yes we'd all be perfectly peacefull with just science...

WHY would the europeans have to "save" the african continent, if there were no such thing as religion.

and WHY would hitler "grill" all the jews, if there were no such thing as religion,
i belive that, in there somewere there was something about them jews killin jesus.
and then off course the black race that were somewhat less equal because the christians couldnt save them earlier in that millenium,
and then his shyte about the arian race, superior human beings yada yada bla bla
but then again hitler was a mad man, so why drag him into a sane conversation anyway

science or no science.

but yeah we would probably have killed each other anyways
if not for religion then for grinding wheels and then later on for money


Originally posted by TWD
Yeah uhuh science is so much better. Yes the science that taught us evolution that was used by the europeans to obliterate the entire continent of africa, leaving it in complete ruins afterwards. sure sure but thats because we europeans didnt felt any use for Africa, like we did for north and south america ;)

I was pointing out MY personal beleifs in the earlier post, i did not slate anyone,
and now you´re patronising me for my beleifs through your point of view,
though i clearly stated that i respect other peoples view and beliefs

that just proves my point really

edit:

Originally posted by JAM8588

btw - science, like religion and everything else on this planet (except animals - not sure about plants) is a "thing". A "thing" cannot be good or evil. It can only be put to use by humans for good or evil purposes (regardless of intent).

wise words :):up:

legacy-Foo
06-09-2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by DarKnyt
Now this is an interesting point - here's a thought on it.

You say if we didn't have Judeo/Christian religions influencing history then we could all be living in peace and happiness.

But under WHAT laws? Whether we like to admit it or not, this whole tossing religion and God out of the classroom, court, and gov't has happened relatively very recently. Our constitution and hence our laws were founded upon principles of religion. Our major societal boundaries come from such religious bylaws as the Ten Commandments among others. Heck - adultery is STILL a court martial offense in the military, even if we've pretty much gotten it out of civil law.

I'm just not seeing how a world devoid of religion would have produced a better or even equivalent set of societal rules. You're premise is that somehow we all would intuitively have this superior sense of how to treat each other. But we have the benefit (or prejudice) of centuries and even millennia of living under the laws propagated by religion - how can we seperate our thinking from them when it's those rules that condition how we approach things mentally.

Think for a second if there were no religion and practicality were the only rule. If we followed that line, then we'd all basically be like the animals living under survival of the fittest with no thought whatsoever to morality or the good of our neighbor. The whole idea of being nice to the planet and respecting each other ARE religious ideals.

True, some pretty heinous things have gone down under the name of religion. But without it, I can't see how we would have progressed to where we are now.

There's quite a lot of material in philosophy on this point. Take a dip into a couple of books (Skip over anything by zizek... the guy's a fruitcake) and check it out, it's interesting.

Personally, I think you should consider that morality defines (in part) religion which defines (in part) society.

Since IMO Religion was/is just a way of giving meaning to social morality, this fits in perfectly with the idea that an intelligent society can exist and develop without the need for religion to guide its morality.

Hence, stating there would be less/different morals without religion IN THE PAST is perhaps something I would agree with. But I beleive that's for reasons of cognitive development. While it would be arrogant to assert that 'we're much smarter now, we dont need religion to get by' I certainly think that (since I've already established my beleif that religion is a method of governing morality) a highly developed society will find different tools with which to govern. I dont think religion will factor into this as highly as it did before.

Religion used to be the be all and end all of life to a lot of societies and individuals, but a lot of the questions which religion gives answers to are being resolved by scientific advancement.

Conveniently, religion gently shifts tact to answer different questions, ignores the ones that have been disproved, and, through a rather odd system of doublethink (read Orwell - 1984), the gigantic lies which have been told in religion throughout the ages are forgotten. I for one am very skeptical of religion BECAUSE of this process.

Seems that while there are still questions left to be answered in life (and there perhaps always will be) then religion will always have a hole which it can fill for many people.

This is the reason, I feel, that some people attack religion on the grounds of it being 'for the weak'.

legacy-K.Rool
06-09-2004, 02:10 PM
I am agnostic - it's simply the best choice, you get to choose your actions yourself :)

legacy-JAM8588
06-10-2004, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by K.Rool
I am agnostic - it's simply the best choice, you get to choose your actions yourself :)

Actually, you always get to choose your actions. And that choice will always be based on something. As will the consequences of those actions.

legacy-djini_hades
06-10-2004, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by Foo
There's quite a lot of material in philosophy on this point. Take a dip into a couple of books (Skip over anything by zizek... the guy's a fruitcake) and check it out, it's interesting.

Personally, I think you should consider that morality defines (in part) religion which defines (in part) society.

Since IMO Religion was/is just a way of giving meaning to social morality, this fits in perfectly with the idea that an intelligent society can exist and develop without the need for religion to guide its morality.

Hence, stating there would be less/different morals without religion IN THE PAST is perhaps something I would agree with. But I beleive that's for reasons of cognitive development. While it would be arrogant to assert that 'we're much smarter now, we dont need religion to get by' I certainly think that (since I've already established my beleif that religion is a method of governing morality) a highly developed society will find different tools with which to govern. I dont think religion will factor into this as highly as it did before.

Religion used to be the be all and end all of life to a lot of societies and individuals, but a lot of the questions which religion gives answers to are being resolved by scientific advancement.

Conveniently, religion gently shifts tact to answer different questions, ignores the ones that have been disproved, and, through a rather odd system of doublethink (read Orwell - 1984), the gigantic lies which have been told in religion throughout the ages are forgotten. I for one am very skeptical of religion BECAUSE of this process.

Seems that while there are still questions left to be answered in life (and there perhaps always will be) then religion will always have a hole which it can fill for many people.

This is the reason, I feel, that some people attack religion on the grounds of it being 'for the weak'.

I say you play Civilization (The FIRST ONE!), and have a REVOLUTION, read all the choices (despotism, monarchy etc) and read the help on those... Very interesting!!!

/me learnt a LOT by playing civi!

legacy-STANGFRIIK
06-10-2004, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by DarKnyt
The idea isn't to convert people so you feel better about your religion. The practical upshot is about bringing people into a belief/value system so that they can make a significant change in their life and by so doing, will want to contribute to those around them and make the world a better place. To say nothing of the spiritual ramifications of usch a change.

Sounds a lot like a pyramid scam:D

legacy-xyzie
06-10-2004, 09:14 AM
I realy feel sorry for the thread starter, looks like he's got no choise, i feel very lucky my parents didn't force any religion on me (read brainwash me), cause that's what it is imho, forcing poeple to believe something that has caused the world more pain then good.

If anyone would ask me to give up 2 years of my life to go tell people about my religion i'dd say, get real ! And your going to pay 12000 dollars to do that ?

Btw if i ever see a mormon at my doorstep telling me i need to change my beliefs concerning god , i'll put him real close to his god....

legacy-JAM8588
06-10-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Foo

Conveniently, religion gently shifts tact to answer different questions, ignores the ones that have been disproved, and, through a rather odd system of doublethink (read Orwell - 1984), the gigantic lies which have been told in religion throughout the ages are forgotten. I for one am very skeptical of religion BECAUSE of this process.



And science has not? Almost all of the "science" that existed up through the 19th century has been debunked (significantly, that having to do with evolution) as technology and information sharing has grown. When a new study comes out on something-or-other, wait 6 months, it'll change (and probably waste a lot of money in the process). Check out AnswersinGenesis.org for more info.


Originally posted by xyzie
I realy feel sorry for the thread starter, looks like he's got no choise, i feel very lucky my parents didn't force any religion on me (read brainwash me), cause that's what it is imho, forcing poeple to believe something that has caused the world more pain then good.



It seems to me the opposite (he's not forced, he's choosing). As to brainwashing, you spend 12+ years of your life being told there's only one way to look at the world. Which is interesting in itself, since many universities want you to be a free-thinker. Again, you choose what to believe.

And to causing pain, people do that, not "things" (see my earlier post). Then they use whatever they want to justify their actions. Sometimes, to them, it's just their point of view, skewed though it may be.

In the end, people cannot govern themselves without guidance. The temptation of power and drive of self is just too powerful for most (all?). Look at any country that has been "revoltionized" and is still ruled by one person (i.e. dictatorships). In most, if not all, the structure of the culture has not really changed, just the people in it, and the common man is no better off than he was before.

legacy-HerbofGPL
06-10-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by xyzie
Btw if i ever see a mormon at my doorstep telling me i need to change my beliefs concerning god , i'll put him real close to his god....

Looks like you don't need a religion for irrational violence...well done. :confused:

legacy-TX-Tbone
06-10-2004, 02:59 PM
Given the "usual" criteria of the type of person that will make it to heaven... I'm very much looking forward to my stay in hell.

legacy-SteelPoet
06-10-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by TWD
I'm not sure how many people here really know me much or care, but I figure there's maybe a few so I thought I'd post.

I've been playing this game since early 2000. I've been involved with beyondunreal ever since then posting on the forum (tho it was planetunreal back then). I played through ut1, was really involved clanning in ut2k3, and still play regularly. You've probably seen me post, especally if you goto beyondunreal.com

Well all that is soon comming to an end. I'm mormon and one of the things that mormon guys my age do is go on missions. I get to walk door to door and ask people if they want to learn things about my religion. That's all I will be doing for the next two years - reading scriptures and teaching people. No TV, no computers, only communication I'll have with my friends/family will be through mail. All personal matters I have to leave behind. I'll also have to fork out a lot of money to do this (like 12 thousand or something like that).

What does that mean? I won't be around. No UT2k4, no forums, no testing mods or talking to people in IRC. I'm leaving for independance, missouri on July 7th. One month left. You probably won't hear a thing of me untill 2006. Hopefully I'll be back before epic releases their next game :)

I figure by the time you come back half-Life 2 will just have been released. ;P

legacy-HerbofGPL
06-10-2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by TX-Tbone
Given the "usual" criteria of the type of person that will make it to heaven... I'm very much looking forward to my stay in hell.

Too right...the devils got all the good sh*t.

Drink, rock n roll, fast cars, slack women.

I've booked already :D

legacy-SteelPoet
06-10-2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by K.Rool
I am agnostic - it's simply the best choice, you get to choose your actions yourself :)


Aaactually...you are not really choosing your own actions either really...your lead on impulses and addictions or habits.

When a person smokes...are they smoking because they want to or because the drugs in the cig are stimulating an addictive response in your subconscience and chemicals in your body?

When you...say for example...wanna get with a woman...are you doing it because you choose to...or because of primal instincts and lust drive you too it?

There are many many many more instances...infact, anyone who says they are a "free-thinker" isn't really free...just slaves to their own instincts/addictions and subconscience.


(also...while i'm not mormon...I can say that when someone gives their life to God...their outlook on life also changes. So a person can go from "I hate church" to "I want to go to church and fellowship!" not because the person feels he HAS to...but because he WANTS to...and that's the fundamental truth of that relationship with God)

legacy-Aesthetic
06-10-2004, 03:10 PM
Good luck on the mission TWD.

Just a note for a lot of you guys. Don't judge a religion you happen to know nothing about. Nobody is forcing him to go. It's his choice. No, the 12000 dollars does not go to our church, it is for living/food expences and whatnot.

I'm also mormon, but I chose not to go :sour: . I just never really wanted to, I don't really feel like its for me, which further proves my point as nobody is forcing us to go. Besides.. the way I look at it, all religions are typically the same, it all just boils down to don't kill, don't steal, be cool to others, etc. Everyone just has their own ways of practicing it. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully committed to my church. I'm just not quick to shoot other ones down, because of false rumors that they have 8 wifes :down: .

legacy-SteelPoet
06-10-2004, 03:17 PM
One good thing about this whole topic...it really shows who on these forums are hateful intolerant hypocrites who say "I believe in free-thinking and choosing my own actions!" And then slam someone for doing just that. For choosing a belief.

Free speech as long as everyone agrees with you, eh?

:)

BesigedB
06-10-2004, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Aesthetic
False rumors that they have 8 wifes :down: .

You mean my fantasies were false? :cry:

legacy-Aesthetic
06-10-2004, 03:22 PM
You mean my fantasies were false?


Yeah.. sorry to spoil all your hopes and dreams man :D

legacy-Saito
06-10-2004, 03:22 PM
Either way best of luck to you TWD.

While I personaly despise religion, I do think that putting your heart into something and working for it are good characteristics in people.:)


Given the "usual" criteria of the type of person that will make it to heaven... I'm very much looking forward to my stay in hell.

I'll be playing spades with ya;)

legacy-TX-Tbone
06-10-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by HerbofGPL
If you're talking about recent conflicts I think you'll find religion plays a pretty big role in it too.
After all, Dumbya does believe he was chosen by god to bomb several small nations into rubble.

Likewise, the people hes supposedly after are a fairly religious lot too iirc.

Yeah, if only GWB was a democrat, or even better, Bill Clinton... Then any war he waged would be justified and not ridiculed.

legacy-Descentia
06-10-2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by SteelPoet
I figure by the time you come back half-Life 2 will just have been released. ;P :haha::up:






(P.S. I'll be prayin' for ya, TWD. :))

legacy-AleGenoa
06-11-2004, 07:18 AM
Your posting seems to show that u don't really desire to go on a mission, but you think you have to. So you're trying to convince yourself it will be a good experience.
Guess what? Probably it would be. People tend to feel emotionally attracted even to their kidnappers. It's the human adaptive nature. We find good in everything.

Problem is, not everything is good.

Are you really capable of judjing your own situation?
Don't fool yourself. Changing your mind now would create great emotional distress, make your parents feel bad & so on... you'd have to be struck by a lightning to do so. You'd even feel a coward!

So, you are unable to objectively analyze & understand your situation.

And what kind of answers do you get now? Some people try to be polite: "I'm a Mormon too", "I don't understand but I respect you" & so on. These answer reinforce your so-called choice.
Others speak out of ignorance, they show they despise you simply because you believe in some kind of god: for them, religion is the source of all evil! Their ideas are confused, full of misconceptions. They are the ripe fruit of a poisoning propaganda.
And their answers also reinforce your so-called choice.

No matter what other people say, the framing is all in favour of you identifying, even by contrast, with the religion is asking you to be a messenger.

But essentially none of the people you come in contact with is prepared to discuss the only thing that really matters: is Mormonism true?
And you go on a mission for a religion you even don't know the most important argument against? Trying to convince other ignorant, helpless people?
Sure, a lot of guys out there may have addressed you a few objections. But nothing serious, believe me. Or at least, not with the right attitude.

Unfortunately I have more experience with the J.Witnss., because we don't hear a lot about Mormons here in Italy, so I can give you little help.

Now try to answer this: why the Italian cuisine is considered the best of the world, and in general food is better in catholic countries (i.e., Poland and Germany are near, sharing climate and ingredients, but there is no competition in the kitchen)?
And why the latin lover is worldwide well know, despite the catholic religion being very demanding about chastity?

Because we catholics enjoy life, in a way most protestants can't even understand! For us there is a lot of freedom, lots of open avenues in our future. We don't have all to conform to the
bourgeois model. We can become rich, or beggars; form a new family, or renounce in favor of a stronger commitment to God.
Saints ar models in an astonishing variety of lifestyles.

So, playing UT2k4 is one of the good things of life, like smelling flowers, having rough sex with you sweet wife, or eating gnocchi col pesto?
Then why thinking of them as something superfluous, distracting?

You don't have to change. A catholic thinks there is a time for everything: if and when your interests will move, you won't feel compelled to end your UT2k4 experience; you'll simply have desire to experience something else.
It is not such an incredible thing to be a celibate priest: it is not something someone expects you to do; instead, there are men who, APPRECIATING the value of a human union, choose something even better.

Jesus knew when it was time to suffer, and to suffer a lot, heroically. But he also enjoyed going to banquets, having good laughs with his mates and a cup of wine!

We appreciate sacrifice. But it has to be your real will! A free will.

The most important question about one's religion? Try to guess it.

It's this one: were I born (arrived) in a culture which maintains the religiuos beliefs which conform to the reality? Am I in the truth?
I'm 31. I spent half of my life putting the answer as one of my top priorities, reading a lot from those who attack my religion, spending countless hours trying to dissect ideas, to find flaws in the catholic faith.

Experience? Having to do with kind people who want you to think their way proves nothing.

Criticism is what you need. Everyone of us needs it, especially atheists, who don't even recongize they have a religion, althought peculiar (among other things, it is by far the most cruel, inspiring the bloodiest wars).

There is lot of criticism to be brought by against Mormonism. Now it's better I quit. Suffice it to remember that the cult-style way of thinking typical of this religion is well apt to keep you from taking criticism seriously.
And don't remember that this religion seems so entrenched in stars&stripes it would make me laugh, if it wasn't such a sad thing. We had to expect it. Americans being nearly convinced that their world is teh world, how could they refrain from inventing a religion according to which Jesus went to America? It's called egocentrism. Not really a candidate for a humanity-saving godly message.

legacy-Eeep
06-11-2004, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by SteelPoet
One good thing about this whole topic...it really shows who on these forums are hateful intolerant hypocrites who say "I believe in free-thinking and choosing my own actions!" And then slam someone for doing just that. For choosing a belief.

Free speech as long as everyone agrees with you, eh?

:)

Pretty much the attitude of this forum

legacy-BroMacK
06-11-2004, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by AleGenoa
There is lot of criticism to be brought by against Mormonism. Now it's better I quit. Suffice it to remember that the cult-style way of thinking typical of this religion is well apt to keep you from taking criticism seriously.
And don't remember that this religion seems so entrenched in stars&stripes it would make me laugh, if it wasn't such a sad thing. We had to expect it. Americans being nearly convinced that their world is teh world, how could they refrain from inventing a religion according to which Jesus went to America? It's called egocentrism. Not really a candidate for a humanity-saving godly message.


The saddest part of this entire thread is the ignorance of it all. All of the posts like this are based entirely in ignorance. What is even sadder is the fact that everyone professed to know what Mormons are about and have no clue and have never EVER studied the doctrine in depth. It's like a prosecuting lawyer going to a murder trial with only what he found in the local tabloid as evidence. Sure, its gripping, and sure some people, including themselves are taken by it, and sure there are pieces of truth in it, but the fact remains is their evidence they have gathered is nowhere near the truth.

For those who continue to profess that TWD is wasting his time, why don't you stand back and ask when the last time it was that you sat down and made a two year sacrifice to what you believe in, and also to affirm your own beliefs. It's not religion that causes the wars in this world, its the intolerance of it. Give it up people... the arguements against mormons based off of ignorance is what is causing the bonehead, though lengthy, comments in this thread.

Finally, TWD, good luck, but I think its time this thread be closed. I know you opened it to say goodbye and that you were sad to leave friends, but people who have English as a second language (as can be seen in their posts) misconstrue this as you not really wanting to go. Perhaps you should lock this and come back and tell us in two years. Everyone who has sincerely said their goodbyes have already done so.

legacy-AleGenoa
06-11-2004, 02:36 PM
The saddest part of this entire thread is the ignorance of it all. All of the posts like this are based entirely in ignorance. What is even sadder is the fact that everyone professed to know what Mormons are about and have no clue and have never EVER studied the doctrine in depth

It's true, ignorance is sad. That's why I tried to put things in perspective. Instead you quoted me as one of the ignorant ones.

The American anomaly is not simply making it possible to a religious belief to be so patently painted in stars&stripes (I wasn't the first to say it is so; to a non-US observer it is quite evident), but the fact of giving a cult the chance to become an established religion.

Now imagine how I am happy to see a man who is trapped in a closed sistem of belief, being countered by guys blindly attacking every religion. There simply is no room for alternative ideas to develop.

And I foresee our good TWD wasting his abilities to self-sacrifice to help other people to enter this religious trap, becoming in the meantime a good reason for atheists to attack religion: they grow accustomed to the idea that religion is something like that, so they feel reinforced in their assumptions.

As for studying in depth, something I didn't do about Mormonism...
The only acceptable way to study in depth, in the view of someone already in, is that of spending a lot of time trying to accept his system as true, suspending disbelief. This is not waiting to get a clearer and more complete picture, this is the way a poor sap can get to believe in ANYTHING.

A religion MUST be perfect. I haven't to spend my time to search and find any trace of good in it. It is sufficient to find a single wrong thing, to prove it false.
And I have to develop a refined sense of critical analysis, which I did.

That's why I needn't know every single aspect of Mormonism: I already heard lots of bad things.

A religion must be a source of justice. It is not sufficient to (be forced to) abolish polygamy; you hadn't to accept it since the beginning. This is more than enough to prove it wrong!

In the Christian Era suicide was nearly unknown; now it is widespread; one of the most affected groups has become women in Utah. Guess why...

And what about the sense of justice of a God demanding fictional ceremonies to be performed in behalf of people who lived in another era... This is plain silly, it can be considered acceptable only by someone who isn't objective. It's making religion a place for obsessive-compulsive behaviour.

I read form ex-mormons that when they were in their community, they never actually found peace; when they began exiting, it was the first occasion they were actually trying to understand the basics of their faith, which were unquestionable till that moment.


why don't you stand back and ask when the last time it was that you sat down and made a two year sacrifice to what you believe in, and also to affirm your own beliefs
Of course, it is a good thing, so HOW SAD that this ability is wasted to trap people in a cult!
Anyway, I spent a few words in the other post to let you understand that a catholic vocation is not something you are expected to do etc., while there are good chanches that young men like TWD weren't completely free in the choice.

As for my

people who have English as a second language (as can be seen in their posts) misconstrue this as you not really wanting to go
Excuse my poor English, but...
Even if TWD probably won't admit that, there are a few passages which are revealing.

The title: "I have 1 month left"; when I cliked on it, I thought of someone who's going to die, being terminaly ill.

It is clear he's sad explaining HOW MUCH he has been involved in UT.


soon comming to an end
(well, I guess there's an m more than needed, but this is a typical motherlanguage writer error, so it's fine)
This is hardly a positive statement.


All personal matters I have to leave behind
Have to...

Then a series of NO to things of modern life. Then again

One month left

But the most revealing passage:

I'm mormon and one of the things that mormon guys my age do is go on missions

So, he's telling us that what he does is, in his view, typical of guys his age. It means he is going to do something not because he took a bold decision, like I could decide to do according to my religion, but because it's someway expected, even if it means abandoning the things he likes.

And you tell me I'm misconstruing?

Of course he could close the thread. I'm sick to death of the american way of debating, fights between science-worshippers attacking the mere concept of religion, and silly creationists attacking science... how sad...

But, maybe TWD is rightly directed in quitting computer games, if they represent a culture in which there is no real space for religious talk.
Or maybe I am not wrong, trying to discuss faith even here, where a lot of people live in an Unreal world, so they have the chance to ignore and attack religion, 'cause someone else gave them values and a decent dinner.

God bless u all.

legacy-TWD
06-11-2004, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by AleGenoa
The American anomaly is not simply making it possible to a religious belief to be so patently painted in stars&stripes (I wasn't the first to say it is so; to a non-US observer it is quite evident), but the fact of giving a cult the chance to become an established religion.


This is hard to understand because of your poor english, but whatever. America is more than just a country. Like religion it is also a system of beliefs. We believe in a lot of things like freedom and democracy. My religion agrees with a lot of these principles. For instance we need to have free will to make our own decisions. So mormons and america believe a lot of the same stuff who cares? I think the people that made our government had the right idea when they got things going.



Now imagine how I am happy to see a man who is trapped in a closed sistem of belief, being countered by guys blindly attacking every religion. There simply is no room for alternative ideas to develop.

And I foresee our good TWD wasting his abilities to self-sacrifice to help other people to enter this religious trap, becoming in the meantime a good reason for atheists to attack religion: they grow accustomed to the idea that religion is something like that, so they feel reinforced in their assumptions.

Sorry pal that's not how it goes down. Obviously you have no clue what it's like to be mormon. I can't talk to a non member without them going off on something. My girlfriend has never been baptized, she won't even talk about it. Yet you have the nerve to go out and say my beliefs have never really been challenged? I think it's funny that you somehow figure you're different. Talk about egocenteric. You're the one going about thinking you're smarter than most of the people in this thread.


As for studying in depth, something I didn't do about Mormonism...
The only acceptable way to study in depth, in the view of someone already in, is that of spending a lot of time trying to accept his system as true, suspending disbelief. This is not waiting to get a clearer and more complete picture, this is the way a poor sap can get to believe in ANYTHING.

First of all I believe in god. Second of all I believe god has given us the ability to know right from wrong, and that god can guide us through prayr. I'm sure most other christians believe the same things. Read the book, know what we believe, study it, pray hard about it. If you do this and really want to know wether it's right or wrong you'll find out. You don't have to suspend all disbelief. If you did that you wouldn't really be studying it very well. What you're saying is that we think you should "be open minded and blindly accept everything we tell you and then you'll know". That's just not true.


A religion MUST be perfect. I haven't to spend my time to search and find any trace of good in it. It is sufficient to find a single wrong thing, to prove it false.
And I have to develop a refined sense of critical analysis, which I did.

That's why I needn't know every single aspect of Mormonism: I already heard lots of bad things.

Who cares if you have a "refined sense of critical analysis" or not. You don't know a think of what you're talking about. Once again egocentric. You try to sound like you know it all when in reality you don't have a clue. If you did it'd be a lot harder for me to counter you, but as it is now this is child's play.


A religion must be a source of justice. It is not sufficient to (be forced to) abolish polygamy; you hadn't to accept it since the beginning. This is more than enough to prove it wrong!

The classic argument. Mormons believed in polygamy, but later changed due to the US government. This is a contradiction. We changed our beliefs therefore it cannot be right.

but that's not what happened. Polygamy is ok as long as god says it is. Church members did not go into polygamy unless the church leadership prayed about it and said it was ok. It wasn't like anybody could go about and marry as many as they wanted whenever they felt like it.

Many bible figures practiced polygamy. Remember that jacob did not have children with other wives untill god told him he could. It's obvious that god allows polygamy under certain circumstances.

In effect we never contradicted ourselves at all. Polygamy is ok in certain circumstances, and when it's ok god will say so. We never contradicted ourselves. If the fact that the church abolished polygamy proves that it is wrong, then the bible is wrong too.


In the Christian Era suicide was nearly unknown; now it is widespread; one of the most affected groups has become women in Utah. Guess why...

This proves nothing. You have simply quoted a statistic. Anybody that has had any experience in sociology (or any kind of emprical science) would know that statistics cannot prove a causal relationship. We only know that women in utah have a higher divorce rate. That doesn't prove that it has to do with the fact that mormonism is bad.


And what about the sense of justice of a God demanding fictional ceremonies to be performed in behalf of people who lived in another era... This is plain silly, it can be considered acceptable only by someone who isn't objective. It's making religion a place for obsessive-compulsive behaviour.

In this case you have pointed out the fact that mormons practice batisms (and other ordinances) for the dead. We believe that in order to get to heaven you have to be baptized. Some never have this chance, and they're dead how can you be baptized without a body? So someone else is baptized for them, the dead individual can then chose to accept of refuse the baptism.

and yet while you mentioned this fact you failed to explain how this proves mormonism is false.


I read form ex-mormons that when they were in their community, they never actually found peace; when they began exiting, it was the first occasion they were actually trying to understand the basics of their faith, which were unquestionable till that moment.

What makes a non-church member's claims any more believable than a non-church member? Most mormons believe that their lifestyle has lead to their own peace and happiness. Two things from two different types of people that directly conflict. Does that really prove the church is wrong?


Of course, it is a good thing, so HOW SAD that this ability is wasted to trap people in a cult!

Oh dear the cult word. Of course that's all "cult" - a word.


Excuse my poor English, but...
Even if TWD probably won't admit that, there are a few passages which are revealing.

The title: "I have 1 month left"; when I cliked on it, I thought of someone who's going to die, being terminaly ill.

It is clear he's sad explaining HOW MUCH he has been involved in UT.


(well, I guess there's an m more than needed, but this is a typical motherlanguage writer error, so it's fine)
This is hardly a positive statement.


Of course. I love Unreal, I love discussing it, there's a lot of people in this community I love to talk to. You think it's easy to leave that all behind? Everyone feels like this when a certain stage has passed. It doesn't mean I don't really want to go. I felt that way about high school. Sad that it's ending, but at the same time anxious to move on to the next step.


But the most revealing passage:


So, he's telling us that what he does is, in his view, typical of guys his age. It means he is going to do something not because he took a bold decision, like I could decide to do according to my religion, but because it's someway expected, even if it means abandoning the things he likes.

And you tell me I'm misconstruing?


I never made any sort of bold decision, but I did make a decision. I want to go. Yes it's something most mormons my age do. Most people get married, it doesn't mean they're being forced to do it. The only reason I mentioned that was because most people aren't mormon. They probably don't know what a mission is or anything about it. I had to give some introduction.


Of course he could close the thread. I'm sick to death of the american way of debating, fights between science-worshippers attacking the mere concept of religion, and silly creationists attacking science... how sad...

Are you kidding me!? I find this whole thing quite entertaining. As for the last bit after that I didn't get what you were saying so I'm not going to bother with it.

and on a side note: I think italian food sucks.

legacy-Gumbypants
06-11-2004, 05:14 PM
I kind of had the feeling this forum post was going to devolve into precisely the discussion it has devolved into... Is there a way we can apply religious messages to CTF-Lavagiant Classic? What does a mormon mission have to do with node taking tactics in ONS or the newest version of the UT2004 patch? I don't know.


Then again, I don't know what the distinction is between a cult and a religion in the first place. It's so funny that people think calling a religion a cult is an insult...but its not. What religion isn't a cult? Is there really any other standard for what distinguishes a cult from a religion other than the amount of people that believe it? If so, I would love to hear it...

legacy-Foo
06-11-2004, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by BroMacK
For those who continue to profess that TWD is wasting his time, why don't you stand back and ask when the last time it was that you sat down and made a two year sacrifice to what you believe in, and also to affirm your own beliefs. It's not religion that causes the wars in this world, its the intolerance of it. Give it up people... the arguements against mormons based off of ignorance is what is causing the bonehead, though lengthy, comments in this thread.

What, you mean like.. comitting 5 years of my life to moving out and studying at university?

Though probably, from your perspective, that's not the same thing, right?


Finally, TWD, good luck, but I think its time this thread be closed. I know you opened it to say goodbye and that you were sad to leave friends, but people who have English as a second language (as can be seen in their posts) misconstrue this as you not really wanting to go. Perhaps you should lock this and come back and tell us in two years. Everyone who has sincerely said their goodbyes have already done so.

So ridiculous I dont even know where to begin. So I'll settle with assuring you that that was a really, really daft post.

legacy-Foo
06-11-2004, 05:24 PM
Heh. You've got to hand it to whoever coined the term 'God'.

Simple, short word with such a mass of meaning behind it, which differs in each individual person who says the word, that the word 'God' itself has absolutely no meaning as a method of communication.

Yet it still continues to be used. What use is a term in which there is no overall communicable meaning?

Absolutely brilliant.


First of all I believe in god. Second of all I believe god has given us the ability to know right from wrong, and that god can guide us through prayr. I'm sure most other christians believe the same things.

Nono. The same WORD, yes. Given what I've just said about the emptiness surrounding the 'God' entity, doesn't this next quote strike as a little... well, blindly hypocritical


What is even sadder is the fact that everyone professed to know what Mormons are about and have no clue and have never EVER studied the doctrine in depth. It's like a prosecuting lawyer going to a murder trial with only what he found in the local tabloid as evidence. Sure, its gripping, and sure some people, including themselves are taken by it, and sure there are pieces of truth in it, but the fact remains is their evidence they have gathered is nowhere near the truth.

legacy-Gumbypants
06-11-2004, 05:54 PM
Christians called it God
GWF Hegel called it Geist
Martin Heidegger called it Being
Plato called it the Sun/Eros
Kant called it the Categorical Imperative
Descartes called it perfection
The Romantic Poets called it the Overlord
Naturalists called it Gaia
Foucault called it power
Deleuze called it the Body without Organs/the Real limit of the social

legacy-BroMacK
06-11-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Foo
What, you mean like.. comitting 5 years of my life to moving out and studying at university?

Though probably, from your perspective, that's not the same thing, right?


Well, speaking from the perspective of having done both, you are correct. They are very different.

There is no point in arguing this out - all I have said is that there are many out there that have said false things about our beliefs and really know nothing about it. And I entirely agree with TWD in that knowing something about God is a matter of study and prayer. Getting the facts, then sincerely asking Him if they are true. If you believe yours are true, stick with them - more power to you. There remain those in this world that don't know their beliefs yet. We give the opportunity for missionaries to share with them our beliefs and allow people the opportunity to find out for themselves. It is between them and God.

Needless to say, this remains a UT2K4 forums... lets go frag this out!!! :p

legacy-thekaLi
06-11-2004, 07:39 PM
err, damn, there was some anti-mormon site with nice stories of ppl who left the mormon sect n stuff, but i cant remember the url... :p
(i happened to stumble upon it while looking up what the hell a 'Mormon' is :p )

legacy-TWD
06-11-2004, 07:52 PM
pfft most anti-mormon websites suck. They don't know how to use HTML properly or how to make a website that won't make me want to gouge my eyes out, not to mention that most of what they say on their sites isn't very well thought out. You can easily make an argument against most of what they say. If you want good anti-mormon stuff go find a book, I'm sure the barnes and noble has a whole section for it. Most of what goes on the websites comes from the books anyways, just that the people making the sites have no clue wtf they're talking about.

legacy-N1nt3nd0
06-11-2004, 08:20 PM
*remembers Mormon episode of South Park*

Glad I'm not religous, my family celebrates Commercial Christmas, never been to church in my life :D

legacy-Homebrew
06-11-2004, 08:52 PM
> Of course he could close the thread. I'm sick to death of the
> american way of debating, fights between science-worshippers
> attacking the mere concept of religion, and silly creationists
> attacking science... how sad...

Normally I would be annoyed by the america-bashing. However, this poster has showed the most insight into the real debate. I for one am a person of science. I'm an engineer. I'm also a man of God and become more so every day. Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. Evil and good are, however. And far too many people (religious/science) accuse the other of being party to evil.

Kudos to whomever brought up Orgazmo. That movie was freakin' hysterical.

legacy-AleGenoa
06-12-2004, 08:20 AM
Again, please excuse my poor English. Any remarks will be appreciated.


So mormons and america believe a lot of the same stuff who cares?
Those who would need to become americans in order to enter the supposed only true religion!

Do you really belileve that I, being an Italian, need to become more american in order to reach God?

Truth is, observers are amused by the naive attitude of a religion that takes for granted that "America is the center of the world"
Even if it is never officially stated, only implied.


Yet you have the nerve to go out and say my beliefs have never really been challenged? I think it's funny that you somehow figure you're different. Talk about egocenteric. You're the one going about thinking you're smarter than most of the people in this thread
If you read with attention what I wrote, you can see I stated clearly that obviously people challenge you, but not in the right way, because, as we can see in this thread, 99% of the people are way more illliterated than you in the field of religion, so you get a false sense of "being in the right path" due to the ignorance and contempt you find in most atheists, but this has nothing to do with Mormonism.
Then, of course, you have a minority challenging directly Mormonism, but they are part of the same cultural system you were living in, so they hardly can scratch the surface of a belief which is already prepared to counter any typical one-shot attack.

I'm no magician or future teller; this description is in part derived from what you said, and in part by what I know of America & human beings.

You tell me about your girlfriend refusing to discuss mormonism. This is a major occasion of putting your faith to test, to say the least! You know you could lose a loved one due to religious reasons!
Yet, your faith prevailed, and your mormonism has been strenghtened in you: this is a milestone, in a future it would be much more complicated to abandon a belief for which you were willing to risk a love relationship (&spend 2 years on mission, &…).
But this has nothing to do with the content of religions. In fact she didn’t even discuss it with you!

Please, use the "You can't be smarter" argument as much as you want. This does nothing to answer my points. Anyway, I AM different, since people like me, who try to understand and love America, but nonetheless give you an external point of view, being outside your country, are quite difficult to encounter. And, the vision of catholicism in America is also badly biased, so if you don’t hear about it from guys like me...


First of all I believe in god. Second of all I believe god has given us the ability to know right from wrong, and that god can guide us through prayr.
Essentially, you are trying to counter my assertions about the need of cirticism (for everyone of us!) with the idea that it is sufficient to study and pray. But this attitude is what drives people in any direction their leaders want!
Those muslim kamikazes who destroyed the Twin Towers were praying a lot. They studied the Holy Books they were given. So what? Does God prevent us from following false teachings? Maybe if we pray very hard? Don't fool yourself!


Read the book, know what we believe, study it, pray hard about it. If you do this and really want to know wether it's right or wrong you'll find out
WHICH BOOK?!?!?!?!?!?!
The ones the Catholic Church gave to the world, collecting the Bible?
The ones someone who came after some centuries felt that humanity needed to accept, being the witness for himself?

Besides, how can you rest assured that someone who prays hard will find out!

Besides, ANY RELIGION BASED ON A SET OF BOOKS IS WRONG!
(This is a whole new chapter, I won't touch it now).

Anyway, I didn't expect you to think that you believe in such and such things only because they told you have to and you accepted them.
But the attitude you just showed in those phrases I quoted is pointing in this very direction: blind acceptance, reinforced by prayer and rationalizations. Too bad you don't see it.

And too bad this talk is taking the tone of a challenge; obviously you'd need a lot of courage to admit there's something wrong in what they told you. And my expressive style and ego won't help. Sorry for that. This is not a competition, trying to show who's the smartest. But I need to tell you what I actually think, even if it can be hurting and apparently presumptuous.
How mad is a society where, when a friend tells you “I know something you don’t”, you cry “Vade retro! You can’t pretend to be smarter than me!”?
That’s why, when discussing, I avoid politically correctness: if everything you get from others is the occasional “maybe”, how and when could you get to really know a different view? So, if I’m harsh, unpolite, apparently know-all, use it against me as you wish. But please, let’s get out of this “nobody can change my opinion” world. Maybe I’m wrong and a confrontational attitude is no gain, but at least I’m trying to be honest, and avoid manipulating statements in order to get your respect and partial consensus, as most people do.


Who cares if you have a "refined sense of critical analysis" or not. You don't know a think of what you're talking about. Once again egocentric. You try to sound like you know it all when in reality you don't have a clue. If you did it'd be a lot harder for me to counter you, but as it is now this is child's play.
I need critical analysis as YOU. But you don't show a remarkable amount of it, and this can be seen in your own gullible statements, like that on prayer&study!
Anyway, here you essentially say that I am wrong, know nothing but pretend to know everything. I could say the same about you. Then what?


Church members did not go into polygamy unless the church leadership prayed about it and said it was ok
Oh well, if they prayed... I bet Osama Bin Laden prays.


Polygamy is ok as long as god says it is
NO! Polygamy is not ok, because it destroys the unitive meaning of marriage &so on, and because it places the woman in a position of inferiority. THEREFORE, a god teaching that polygamy is ok is a false god! And that's all!


Many bible figures practiced polygamy. Remember that jacob did not have children with other wives untill god told him he could. It's obvious that god allows polygamy under certain circumstances.
Well, here I'll try to reverse things in the way of discussing. Since for me it is self-evident how close-minded this statement is, I ask you to try to imagine how people like me would confute it.
If you have a good sense of self-criticism, and you needn't to hear from a truly different point of view like mine, you won't have problems in explaining my position about this and counterattacking.


You have simply quoted a statistic
Mt 7,15-20: effects are to be expected, of the appropriate kind.


We believe that in order to get to heaven you have to be baptized. Some never have this chance, and they're dead how can you be baptized without a body? So someone else is baptized for them, the dead individual can then chose to accept of refuse the baptism.
Most of the humanity can't be part of this formal rite. Their traces are lost. So, does my being saved depend on other people preserving some kind of written trace of me? This is plain silly.
Of course, you can use some sort of wishful thinking to describe a scenario where people are saved anyway, even if the written record is not correct and complete.
But then, why in the first place create a rule that needs to be broken?
It all boils down to this: a god who is forcing men to follow rules which have no meaning or purpose, rules their (God-given!) rationality can't explain, so they have to ignore their brains and take rules as a Given (He knows all, it must be good, 'cause He said so)... A god who teaches us to do things like that, can't be God.

(On a side note: could you publicly report us the whole formulae used in those rites?)

Superstitions and primitive religions perform this kind of rites: it is the social equivalent of an obsessive-compulsive behaviour.


What makes a non-church member's claims any more believable than a non-church member?
I don't mean that you have to take these assertions per se.
Exx-Mormons are simply witnesses. MAybe false witnesses. Or maybe not.
If I were you, trying to think the way they think would be my top priority.
The main source, in order to understand a system of thought, must be represented by those who attack it.

When you are awake, you know pretty well that the night before you were dreaming. Ok, this does nothing to help people find out they are asleep. But, right now, you have no doubt you are not in bed.

You need to test their path, to find out if by chance you are trapped in a dreamland.
This is not my personal opinion. It's how reasoning works. After all, a scientific theory is valid only when it provides ways to prove it wrong. And everyone tries to find fallacies in it.
How much more deserved is this prudent attitude when the object of discussion isn't even demonstrable!

When they say they found the reason of their having emotional problems when they were mormons, why in the world do you dismiss it by simply stating that everyone thinks that those in the opposite field are wrong?

Moreover, I wrote about it especially to report their testimony that actual criticism and free discussion weren't part of their mormon life. When doubts began, they were already on the road out.

Someone once said that he had never heard of people abandoning the catholic faith when they were in a "State of Grace."
Instead, ex-mormons, ex-jehovists, ex-… often report that they were simply trying to understand their faith better. They were good and faithful.
So, you may ask, why a lot of people study very hard and are still devout mormons?
Well, it depends on the method (criticism!). And, after all, it’s a tug-o-war between 2 drives: the will to understand, and the will to comply.

As for the cult word, ok, it’s a word. We won’t use it, if you want. But the meaning is still out there.


I want to go. Yes it's something most mormons my age do. Most people get married, it doesn't mean they're being forced to do it. The only reason I mentioned that was because most people aren't mormon. They probably don't know what a mission is or anything about it. I had to give some introduction.
Maybe you are really anxious to quit with your present life, maybe you didn’t feel any pressure, maybe it’s only by chance that the way you expressed in the first post seemed to show, althought unconsciously, that you weren’t convinced.

But this can’t be true for the majority of your peers. In fact, the marriage example you used has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
People tend naturally to marry. You don’t have to coherce them. On the contrary, very few people would want to spend 2 years on a mission.
If the guys on a mission are commonplace, they are mostly not freely choosing it, but instead they are doing what they are told to do.

You can’t change human nature. But someone exploits it.