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legacy-gogobongopop
03-11-2004, 06:54 AM
Hi Folks

A company in the UK is putting together a SuSE 9 Pro PC for me. They have just rang and said they cannot get the Nvidia FX5600 graphics card I wanted installed. They say its not supported by Suse and when they turn 3d accelleration on the X server crashes.

They have recommended trying an ATI card instead. I know little about ATI so first of all, what is the equiv ATI card to the FX5600? Are there any issues with ATI in Linux? Should I be bothered at all?

What do you think I should do? Does anyone here have Suse with an Nvidia card? Should I just ask them to send the machine anyway and have a go myself? They say they have reinstalled Suse and tried 2 different cards but still no luck.

I just need some advice guys and girls.......

What would you do?

I need my rig ready for some fraggin' in a few days!!

Thanks

legacy-thelonecrouton
03-11-2004, 07:00 AM
NO!!!

ATI cards can be made to work under linux almost as easily as nvidia cards, but the ATI drivers suck big-time.

My Ti4200 outperforms a 9800 in linux - it shouldn't be possible, but nvidia's drivers are WAY better.

No reason a FX5600 wouldn't work AFAIK.

legacy-Logue
03-11-2004, 07:00 AM
Go for the ATI 9600pro is a nice card which is mid range or if you have the cash a nice 9800 pro would be awesome for gaming

legacy-gogobongopop
03-11-2004, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by thelonecrouton
NO!!!

ATI cards can be made to work under linux almost as easily as nvidia cards, but the ATI drivers suck big-time.

My Ti4200 outperforms a 9800 in linux - it shouldn't be possible, but nvidia's drivers are WAY better.

No reason a FX5600 wouldn't work AFAIK.

Damn. Thats what I expected. Someone in the office said the very same thing.

Are they just being a bunch of retards? Its a tough situation to be in. I just dont know what to do. Thinking I may just ask to send it to me..........but if they cant install, I hold little hope that I can.

I have Teh Demo on my Windows machine and it runs lovely with the same Nvidia card. I dot want to have to stick with Windows for UT2004 :cry:

legacy-thelonecrouton
03-11-2004, 07:21 AM
Ask them to stick an FX5900LX/XT in there. Same price as an FX5600 give or take a tenner, and they can be o/c'd right up to 5950 speeds.

legacy-Monastat7
03-11-2004, 07:50 AM
Just more proof that Linux > Windows

hahahahah

BUT OMG ITS SO SECURE... yeah, who would want to hack you on linux anyway, all the apps are free, not worth running, impossible to install, take ages to compile to even run properly on your system, OMG dependancies, 30 step installation process for anything...

But thats just my opinion on the one and only truth of linux

</troll> :D

legacy-gogobongopop
03-11-2004, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by Monastat7
Just more proof that Linux > Windows

hahahahah

BUT OMG ITS SO SECURE... yeah, who would want to hack you on linux anyway, all the apps are free, not worth running, impossible to install, take ages to compile to even run properly on your system, OMG dependancies, 30 step installation process for anything...

But thats just my opinion on the one and only truth of linux

</troll> :D

Right, well, thanks for that.

No doubt I can get it all sorted now with that advice :rolleyes:

legacy-Monastat7
03-11-2004, 07:55 AM
ok, fine :mad:

You want advice, get a real OS installed.

legacy-gogobongopop
03-11-2004, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by Monastat7
ok, fine :mad:

You want advice, get a real OS installed.

:haha:
Bless

legacy-Zyngath
03-11-2004, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by modaceface
Are they just being a bunch of retards?


I think you hit the bullseye with that one. A company that sells computers that are "specialized" for Suse linux and that tells you a FX5600 wont work and want to offer you a ATI card instead shouldn't be trusted imo. They dont deserve to get your money...

ATI + Linux = no good (at least atm)

legacy-gogobongopop
03-11-2004, 08:48 AM
:mad:
Must...
Destroy...
Idiots...
That...
Ruin...
My...
Life...
:mad:

Thanks for the help guys. I'm gonna just ask them to send it to me and I'll have a go myself.

:bulb:

legacy-Nexx_au
03-11-2004, 08:59 AM
good luck :)

also check out www.linuxquestions.org

very good forums for linux problems :)

legacy-gogobongopop
03-11-2004, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Nexx_au
good luck :)

also check out www.linuxquestions.org

very good forums for linux problems :)

Hee hee, got exactly the same thread already going there, and a few other places

But to be honest, I got much better help here.

You guys > *
:up:

legacy-marith
03-11-2004, 09:10 AM
Happily running a nVidia Ti4600 with 3d acceleration under Linux. nVidia have the best Linux drivers compared to ATI.

You may want to have a look at the following advice from nVidia about SUSE: nVidia SUSE HowTo (ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/supplementary/X/XFree86/nvidia-installer-HOWTO)

Here's an interesing paragraph from that page:

NOTE: There is no need to try to enable 3D support. It's already
enabled, when the nvidia driver is running. Ignore the
misleading error message, that 3D support can't be enabled.
This problem will be fixed with SuSE > 9.0 and is related to the
latest nvidia driver release.
I hope that helps.

legacy-gogobongopop
03-11-2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by marith
Happily running a nVidia Ti4600 with 3d acceleration under Linux. nVidia have the best Linux drivers compared to ATI.

You may want to have a look at the following advice from nVidia about SUSE: nVidia SUSE HowTo (ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/supplementary/X/XFree86/nvidia-installer-HOWTO)

Here's an interesing paragraph from that page:

I hope that helps.

:eek:

That might it! They said that they had installed the drivers and that the card was recognised, they just couldnt get 3D support going.

I'll keep my fingers crossed!

You star, thanks

:up:

legacy-nullity
03-11-2004, 09:35 AM
just follow that howto on the site where you download drivers for linux.

i upgraded my other drive to suse 9 last week and got my nvidia working perfect.

but i turned on the enable 3d after i installed. never went back to check if its labeled on or not but everything works fine.

legacy-SovietBreadLine
03-11-2004, 09:48 AM
I'm also running a TI4600 (in Gentoo) and I've had nothing but good luck here. As everyone else said, Nvidia's Linux drivers for their video cards are great, but I'd be wary of a company which apparently claims to build Linux boxes and somehow can't manage to do it.

legacy-Scr4per
03-11-2004, 10:06 AM
http://ati.com/support/driver.html yay linux drivers :)

legacy-Cenotaph
03-11-2004, 10:08 AM
i also had sum problems with installing the FX5600 in Lunix (Mandrake 9.2)
i think they prolly need some kernel upgrades, anyway. thats y i like Windows better, in terms of compatiblity its way better than Linux, i also couldnt get my Monitor with a DVI digital plug working.

and tbh Windows is more secure than Linux.

Linux is greater for development thou.

legacy-SovietBreadLine
03-11-2004, 10:18 AM
and tbh Windows is more secure than Linux.

And you're basing that on what? Linux, like Windows (to an extent) is only as secure or insecure as you make it.

legacy-Seoulstriker
03-11-2004, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Logue
Go for the ATI 9600pro is a nice card which is mid range or if you have the cash a nice 9800 pro would be awesome for gaming


STFU. have you tried running ATi cards in linux? :mad:

legacy-gogobongopop
03-11-2004, 10:28 AM
Thanks for your help folks.

Before I made this post I made a small bet with myself that it wasnt possible to post a thread about Linux with having a small Windows vs Linux war.

I won :p

legacy-Logue
03-11-2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Seoulstriker
STFU. have you tried running ATi cards in linux? :mad: #

yes my brothers sys has a 9700 pro running in linux getting same benchmarks as in windows

legacy-j0ntar
03-11-2004, 11:10 AM
This is true. Plus Suse is seriously bugged with X and its default file system. Together they = constant crashz0rs.

Just download Fedora Core http://fedora.redhat.com.

legacy-nullity
03-11-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by j0ntar
This is true. Plus Suse is seriously bugged with X and its default file system. Together they = constant crashz0rs.

Just download Fedora Core http://fedora.redhat.com.

suse runs perfectly :)

legacy-thelonecrouton
03-11-2004, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Logue
#

yes my brothers sys has a 9700 pro running in linux getting same benchmarks as in windows

His windows install is seriously b0rked then.

legacy-Logue
03-11-2004, 01:11 PM
gets 80fps on 2k4 so cant be that borked

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-11-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by modaceface
Are they just being a bunch of retards? Its a tough situation to be in. I just dont know what to do. Thinking I may just ask to send it to me..........but if they cant install, I hold little hope that I can.

Yes, they are. nVidia graphics drivers work perfectly under SuSE. I have a Tyan S2885 at work that I have set up to boot either 32-bit Gentoo or 64-bit SuSE, the nVidia driver works in both environments.

And as someone already mentioned, ATi is not to be trusted with drivers.

legacy-Tom_Blaze
03-11-2004, 02:01 PM
Why Linux inthe first place. I have a Box at home with Red Hat on it that I use for tinkering around and learning. I am mainly consdiering building a web/mail/ftp/TS?Vent server and using linux to run it.

Installing anything on it is a very painful experience atm. Getting photoshop to install lead me on a small drinking binge :( No worries..I survived. AA meetings help LOL.

Dont get me wrong Windows is evil and Bill Gates is satan....I dream everyday that i will see reports that Microsoft has blown up and Bill Gates is dead and windows source code revealed in full to the world. Pipe dreams. Anyway....it just seems a little more reasonable to use windows at least for video games. Its not like you have to actually PAY for Windows...everyone I know with a computer has a copy yanked off the internet and used a 3rd party program to fool windows update into thinking you had a legit serial to install SP1. (I am not admitting anything here. Just in case the software police are watching)

Anyway, my question is.....Why would you go the linux route over windows?

legacy-j0ntar
03-11-2004, 02:22 PM
prefrence, choice, options, freedom of expression, lighter wallet, more fun, prettier desktop, more power, stability, community, Penguins, rpm -Uvh/apt-get, etc ........

You use linux as a hobby o/s, you will never really learn that way but its fun none.the.less. Some of us are rather attached to our linux boxes. Although i dual boot because i am still very attached to photoshop performance in windows compared to crossover office & linux, and i play other games such as raven shield, which uses the UT Engine but isnt ported to linux. (psst is some says WineX ill scream)

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 02:23 PM
Tom_Blaze:
Why Linux in the first place? There are a host of reasons.

1) You actually care about software freedom. Not "free-as-in-beer", but "free-as-in-speech". With Linux (and most of the distros based around it), there's a comittment to open source ideologies. In some cases, that translates into "I can get the software for free", in others it's "I can pay for the software but get access to the source code".

2) You care about not pirating other people's hard work. Like 'em or hate 'em (I don't care for Microsoft one bit, myself), MS has put a lot of time, money and effort into the OS that you so cavalierly (hah! Pun intended!) pirated.

3) You care about security. In the Linux world, you have a community of very dedicated people who are constantly on the lookout for security flaws and have access to the source code! In almost all situations, this translates into less security vulnerabilities and, when vulns. do occur, a quicker turnaround time to fix the problems.

4) You enjoy having a robust multi-user system straight out of the box. Go ahead, look at Microsoft's pricelist for Terminal Servers and then tell me that a Linux box isn't worth it.

5) You enjoy choice. From applications to security software to desktop environments, there's a ton of stuff out there.

Now, Tom, I don't know why you went through the trouble of trying to install PShop on a Linux box, when The Gimp is already available and does most of what PShop does. But, if you really wanted to, you could pay CodeWeavers for Crossover Office and run PShop 7 just fine: Photoshop 7 under CxO (http://www.codeweavers.com/site/products/cxoffice/supported_apps/?id=8)

Shall I go on?

legacy-Tkmaster
03-11-2004, 02:29 PM
I find that windows systems are just as secure as linux systems.. provided you keep the system up to date with security fixes etc....
i never had one instability problem with winxp

and i keep up to date with all updates (the ones that is important to my system)

as of that store building that computer...
if yo0u want nvidia card then tell them that you wont take anything else but nvidia

it is obviously something they are doing wrong...

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 02:58 PM
...and Slashdot goes ahead and posts a topic on just what we're talking about:

Slashdot: What differentiates Linux from Windows? (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/11/1845253&mode=thread)

*grin*

Logy
03-11-2004, 03:36 PM
Since what I was going to say about ATI under Linux has been said, I'll just point out that there is a useful document here if you're new to Linux gaming:

The Linux Gamer's FAQ (http://www.icculus.org/lgfaq/)

legacy-gogobongopop
03-11-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Tom_Blaze
Anyway, my question is.....Why would you go the linux route over windows?

For me, it was seeing just how much software you get with Linux. When I installed Suse 9 Pro I was just shocked at the litterally hundreds of applications and development tools you get. And when the software is just as good and often better than Microsoft, seeing as Linux is much much cheaper, it seemed a bit stupid to waste my money on Windows.

It doesnt take long to realise just how powerful the CLI is, and that the Linux GUI is now just as good as Windows. As a desktop, I find it much more fun, far more flexible and I realise that I can be happy not ever needing any other software on it (except UT2004 of course ;)) Windows is just, well, boring. But hey, each to his/her own.

Plus the many many many other reasons already stated above.

On a lighter note, they delivered the PC at my work this afternoon, tomorrow I plan on doing no work at all and getting my graphics card installed ready for next week!

legacy-j0ntar
03-11-2004, 04:14 PM
lol not to be a cynic but whats with everyone here an SuSe ?? Suse is redhat with a few diffrent features added and some taken away then sold for a price.

So i guess what im asking is why choose Suse over Fedora?

(psst im not starting a distro battle im just curious)

btw im a diehard Fedora & Whitebox if you havent notice. I choose these because its what i started with (redhat 5.2) I have never been given any motivation to change, all though gentoo is a great distro i have tried it many of times, but i like rpm package management WITH apt-get (without apt-get i dont, yes yes thank you Debian) compared to portage/emerge.

legacy-marith
03-11-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by modaceface
On a lighter note, they delivered the PC at my work this afternoon, tomorrow I plan on doing no work at all and getting my graphics card installed ready for next week! Let us know how you get on (I'm sure you will anyway).

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-11-2004, 05:24 PM
I have installed redhat9 on one hard drive twice today and once on another hard drive. Out of all 3 times I cant boot into linux. I get to grub and select red hat 9 it scans a screen of text then freezes and I have to reboot. This has happened on both hard drives.

Im getting sick of it and i think i change my mind about using linux over windows since i cant even get it to boot. I didnt make a boot diskette cause my floppy drive isnt working, i finally found my floppy disks though. sigh, i give up

legacy-j00f00
03-11-2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Tom_Blaze
Dont get me wrong Windows is evil and Bill Gates is satan....I dream everyday that i will see reports that Microsoft has blown up and Bill Gates is dead and windows source code revealed in full to the world. Pipe dreams. Anyway....it just seems a little more reasonable to use windows at least for video games. Its not like you have to actually PAY for Windows...everyone I know with a computer has a copy yanked off the internet and used a 3rd party program to fool windows update into thinking you had a legit serial to install SP1. (I am not admitting anything here. Just in case the software police are watching)

Anyway, my question is.....Why would you go the linux route over windows?

1. They have something against Microsoft/Windows/Bill Gates.
2. They can't pay for XP.
3. They can't pirate XP.
4. They have used linux more.

I myself wouldn't switch, I see no point whatsoever in switching just to be "free of the Microsoft machine". The truth is, everything I want and need runs on Windows. Don't buy into the hype, linux is NOT for everyone, just for those who prefer it.

legacy-j0ntar
03-11-2004, 05:46 PM
<< i feel a distro war coming >>

legacy-DarkHydra
03-11-2004, 06:03 PM
Yes, linux is more difficult to use than Windows, and isn't for everyone... The main problem is program support (many games won't run). If only most games would run on Linux, I'd completely make the switch instead of dual-booting ;)

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-11-2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by j00f00
Don't buy into the hype, linux is NOT for everyone, just for those who prefer it.

But with GNU/Linux, you don't have to buy anything to have a fully functional system :up:

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-11-2004, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by DarkHydra
Yes, linux is more difficult to use than Windows, and isn't for everyone...

I honestly disagree with this point, though it's purely subjective. Here's a quick rundown on my reasons for saying this:

1) Package management--Many distros have package managers that will download a program and all dependencies and install them for you. With Gentoo, it'll compile from source, which means I can optimize my programs for my machine.

2) Default apps--Many distributions come with a HUGE variety of apps ready to go out of the box, including a variety of web browsers, desktop managers, and office suites. This used to be the case with Windows, until they decided to kill Netscape by excluding them from Windows distributions. Many probably recall that this led to a huge court battle. They haven't bundled much with their OS since, even if it's their own stuff (I'd like to see them give MS Office away for free with Windows, HA).

Programs like OpenOffice and the GIMP being available for free just sweeten the deal.

3) Scripting--Many users probably don't even think about this, but scripts are still very useful. With GNU/Linux, you can set a service to run only on certain runlevels. So if your system is malfunctioning, you can exclude services by booting into init 1, or 'single' mode. Windows has something similar to this called 'safe' mode, but they somehow manage to make it take longer to boot with fewer services.

You can also have the GUI come up only on certain runlevels, which is useful for servers which don't require a GUI and the extra overhead.

4) Desktop--Here's where nobody seems to agree with me, but I think the KDE desktop puts Explorer to shame. Virtual desktops and task grouping keep the taskbar clear of clutter. Extremely easy style/widget customization too, along with anti-aliasing (sub-pixel AA for flatpanels, too!). Or you can be like me and choose a low-frills desktop with extremely little overhead, like Fluxbox.

X11, while old, is still quite versatile. I know newer versions of Windows XP have some built-in remote desktop, but X has been able to do X11 forwarding with SSH security for a long time. Sound, graphics, etc, all work over the network and are transparent to the terminal.

5) Installation--All distros I've used have had an optional network installer. This alone makes me extremely happy, especially with distros like Gentoo where you can always get the latest and most up to date packages by installing on-line. I can throw in a Gentoo 1.2 CD, install, and wind up with all the latest packages. You can't use an old WinXP CD to install the latest version of XP with all security leaks patched.

Many distros also have an extremely impressive graphical interface, easily as good and if not better than the Windows installer. SuSE 9 is the most recent distro I've tried to install with a GUI.

Anyway, feel free to disagree, but I think that in all regards except for games and a very select few commercial apps, the free software community has already surpassed what Microsoft and a few companies that make apps exclusively for Win32 have to offer.

legacy-thelonecrouton
03-11-2004, 07:03 PM
Linus should put you on the payroll.

Oh, wait...

;)

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 07:36 PM
XxX:
Before you give up on Linux, maybe we could help a bit. What kind of disk are you trying to install on? Sometimes, LILO works better than GRUB.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-11-2004, 07:54 PM
I tried installing it on a 7200rpm seagate 160gig hard drive with an 8mb cache split into two 80 gig partitions. One for windows and the other was for games. Then I decided to put linux on it to run 2k4 when it comes out just to see how well it played and I was sick of winblows anyways.

First install ran good, took me a bit to partition but I got it after doing alot of reading. When it prompted me to take the cd out and reboot the whole screen was full of text giving some sort of error or something, couldnt read it cause it was so fast. BTW I installed the linux on the 2nd partition of my seagate. I already had problems with that drive cause winsucks doesnt recognize anything over 137gb without a huge hassle to get around it. Which i still dont have access to 10gb of disk space due to that.

Ok I rebooted after the first install and selected linux, hit enter. Booted thru a whole page of text looked like it was verifying stuff then it froze at the line

apm: BIOS version 1.2 Flags 0x03 (Driver version 1.16)

I didnt have a command prompt or anything. I had to reset my machine manually. It did that twice so I tried the rescue feature. That didnt help. So I reinstalled. Same thing again.

Third install I put in a 40gb WD HD without windows on it so it didnt have to dual boot. Installed and went ok. Same thing happend after that install. But It was recognising both installs of linux. SO I booted back into windows and removed the partitions that had my previous 2 installations of RH9 on it so the 3rd install would be the only one on there to choose from. Still didnt boot into linux. I read up some more on stuff and asked around, made posts, etc. Wrote down some commands. Like booting into rescue mode and modifying /boot/grub/grub.conf
I couldnt even get that to load, something to do with the kernel needed to be loaded first, which I didnt know how to do.
I tried chroot /mnt/sysimage
I looked like it worked but I still couldnt boot into linux.

After all that. I installed the 4th time. Formatted the partitions with the built in partition thing in the linux install menu. Same thing again. I thought the 3rd time was the charm. In my case it wasnt and Ive wasted all my day since 10:30am trying to get it to work and I cant and im sick and tired of it. Im suprised me and my patience held out this long. Its pathetic. And thats all I can think of that I have done except the last install I had an error about an executable. I am installing from the 3ISO cds I downloaded and burnt off of RedHats FTP site. The cds are error free as far as I know. I used smartFTP to download them and it was fine. Im getting stressed to the max messing with this crap.

BTW It wont let me choose LILO as the bootloader.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 07:59 PM
XxX:
First off: deep breaths. *grin*

What motherboard are you running on? What version of the BIOS?

The text output you're seeing is normal. It's not (necessarily) error info. As Linux goes through its bootup and shutdown sequences, it prints diagnosis info to the text terminal. Fedora has a graphical boot process that largely obscures the text output, but RedHat 9 doesn't have it.

One thing you might want to try is downloading Fedora and attempting to install it. It has more recent kernel revisions and better hardware support than vanilla RH9.

If there's anything else I can do, just let me know.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 08:06 PM
Hmmm, apm is the Advanced Power Management daemon. Unless you're using a laptop, it's not necessary.

I wonder if that's causing some of your problems...

legacy-Airjrdn
03-11-2004, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by DeathPenguin
I honestly disagree with this point, though it's purely subjective. Here's a quick rundown on my reasons for saying this:

1) Package management--Many distros have package managers that will download a program and all dependencies and install them for you. With Gentoo, it'll compile from source, which means I can optimize my programs for my machine.

2) Default apps--Many distributions come with a HUGE variety of apps ready to go out of the box, including a variety of web browsers, desktop managers, and office suites. This used to be the case with Windows, until they decided to kill Netscape by excluding them from Windows distributions. Many probably recall that this led to a huge court battle. They haven't bundled much with their OS since, even if it's their own stuff (I'd like to see them give MS Office away for free with Windows, HA).

Programs like OpenOffice and the GIMP being available for free just sweeten the deal.

3) Scripting--Many users probably don't even think about this, but scripts are still very useful. With GNU/Linux, you can set a service to run only on certain runlevels. So if your system is malfunctioning, you can exclude services by booting into init 1, or 'single' mode. Windows has something similar to this called 'safe' mode, but they somehow manage to make it take longer to boot with fewer services.

You can also have the GUI come up only on certain runlevels, which is useful for servers which don't require a GUI and the extra overhead.

4) Desktop--Here's where nobody seems to agree with me, but I think the KDE desktop puts Explorer to shame. Virtual desktops and task grouping keep the taskbar clear of clutter. Extremely easy style/widget customization too, along with anti-aliasing (sub-pixel AA for flatpanels, too!). Or you can be like me and choose a low-frills desktop with extremely little overhead, like Fluxbox.

X11, while old, is still quite versatile. I know newer versions of Windows XP have some built-in remote desktop, but X has been able to do X11 forwarding with SSH security for a long time. Sound, graphics, etc, all work over the network and are transparent to the terminal.

5) Installation--All distros I've used have had an optional network installer. This alone makes me extremely happy, especially with distros like Gentoo where you can always get the latest and most up to date packages by installing on-line. I can throw in a Gentoo 1.2 CD, install, and wind up with all the latest packages. You can't use an old WinXP CD to install the latest version of XP with all security leaks patched.

Many distros also have an extremely impressive graphical interface, easily as good and if not better than the Windows installer. SuSE 9 is the most recent distro I've tried to install with a GUI.

Anyway, feel free to disagree, but I think that in all regards except for games and a very select few commercial apps, the free software community has already surpassed what Microsoft and a few companies that make apps exclusively for Win32 have to offer.

I think you raise a lot of good points, there are a few things to consider with regards to your post.

Additional applications that ship with a distro don't make Linux easier to use.

The ability to compile applications doesn't make Linux easier to use.

Scripting - In Windows, you simply press a key at bootup and you can say yes/no to each and every driver prior to it loading. Again, this does nothing for ease of use.

Installation - again, has nothing to do with ease of use.

The GUI - this is where ease of use can be measured most accurately. While Linux is improving greatly, it still can't come close to Windows.

Screwups - this is a big one. Find 10 everyday computer users, and install bad video drivers. Reboot the machine and see how many of the 10 can install new drivers. In Linux, you are now at that oh so pretty command prompt. Lovely isn't it? In Windows, you are in the GUI, 640x480 @ 16 colors, and browsing the web is the same as before, just uglier.

How about driver installation? ATI is known for poor Linux drivers. Why should I be forced to purchase an Nvidia card just because of the OS I chose? I personally run an ATI 9700 Pro because I feel it's one of the best cards out there. It's a good thing I'm not running Linux huh?

Drivers (again)...How many wireless NIC's have you seen work upon bootup of one of the Linux livecd's? I've not seen one, but have tried about 6 of the livecd's.

I'm intrigued by Linux. As a software developer (turned manager) I want Linux to succeed, but at the same time, I see SO many areas for improvement. A large portion of what I see is due to there NOT being one central point of project management.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-11-2004, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by ZaMoose
XxX:
First off: deep breaths. *grin*

What motherboard are you running on? What version of the BIOS?

The text output you're seeing is normal. It's not (necessarily) error info. As Linux goes through its bootup and shutdown sequences, it prints diagnosis info to the text terminal. Fedora has a graphical boot process that largely obscures the text output, but RedHat 9 doesn't have it.

One thing you might want to try is downloading Fedora and attempting to install it. It has more recent kernel revisions and better hardware support than vanilla RH9.

If there's anything else I can do, just let me know.

BIOS is an Intel P18 on a D80GB (think thats the right #) Gateway Board.
About the text output. Thats where it stops at that line I posted in my last post. It just sits there and I cant type or anything. I have to manually reboot. Ill search for Fedora and see how big it is and try to grab it off the ftp.

Other system specs are:
gf4ti4600 visiontek
512mb rdram pc800
P4 2.4ghz 400mhz fsb
160gb seagate hd
40gb wd hd
(45gb ibm hd when its installed for backups)
sb audigy mp3+
linksys nic card
lite on cdrw
sony dvd rom
1.44 floppy
400w power
lights
fans
etc.

:cool:

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 08:25 PM
Airjrdn:
Did you read this (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/09/1254211&mode=thread) Slashdot article? It goes a long way towards saying that a commandline interface is more newbie-friendly than the 'doze GUI.

Now, responses:

Additional applications that ship with a distro don't make Linux easier to use.
No, but they do make it far more full-featured out of the box, no extra installation or money required.



The GUI - this is where ease of use can be measured most accurately. While Linux is improving greatly, it still can't come close to Windows.

Where do you come up with this? Based on what metric? Familiarity? There are DE's that run on Linux that do a VERY good job of imitating Windows, so I don't think your argument holds water.

Customizabililty? Good looking themes? The DE's on Linux blow away anything Microsoft can offer.

I think a lot of it comes down to what people are familiar with. Had you introduced people to Linux to start with, instead of Windows, I think you could make a very good case for them not being able to navigate Windows' finer points.

Which is precisely why I'm starting my kids on Linux early.

*grin*

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 08:28 PM
XxX:
What Gateway model is it? I'm looking on their site and it looks like you could have any number of the models they offer.

The mystery continues. *grin*

One thing you might want to do is search on Google Groups. There's a lot of Linux-related newsgroups/mailing lists represented there and someone may have had a similar experience.

That's where I'll be heading when you give me your Gateway model number. *chuckle*

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 08:30 PM
Oh, and Fedora ships on 3 CDs by default, so you're looking at ~1.8GB to download (similar to the RH9 ISOs).

legacy-Airjrdn
03-11-2004, 08:33 PM
Yes, I had seen that Slashdot article. I also take the userbase of Slashdot into account anytime I read anything posted on or linked to from Slashdot.


There are DE's that run on Linux that do a VERY good job of imitating Windows, so I don't think your argument holds water.

You're proving my point(s). Why imitate Windows if the Linux GUI is better/easier to navigate/use?


No, but they do make it far more full-featured out of the box, no extra installation or money required.

Agreed, but your point was that Linux was easier to use. My point was, this doesn't make the OS any easier to use.


Customizabililty? Good looking themes? The DE's on Linux blow away anything Microsoft can offer.

Show me some screenshots, maybe I just haven't seen them. Not made by Microsoft, but have you ever heard of WindowBlinds and it's sister products? www.stardock.com

Familiarity does play a part in it, I'll give you that. There's not much of a way to test that theory at this point though.

As for your kids, I wish them nothing but the best, be it from Linux, Windows, or anything else they venture into. :)

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-11-2004, 08:34 PM
Too bad linux wasnt around 12-14 years ago when I first got into Win 3.1 Id love to be as fluent in it as i am windows.

Ive always been a computer junkie, messing with bios settings, doing commands in dos that i kinda had an idea about but still didnt actually know for sure.
Thought I knew what I was doing until I crashed my first pc and couldnt play wolfenstein or doom1 anymore. I was so pissed. I took the ram out and tried to rearrange it, which come to find out you couldnt do back then. It only had like 4mb ram neway. and 40mb hard drive. IBM Edison 386 with the 33mhz turbo button! :eek:

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-11-2004, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by ZaMoose
Oh, and Fedora ships on 3 CDs by default, so you're looking at ~1.8GB to download (similar to the RH9 ISOs).

downloading now. 1 and 2 ISOs at 110 and 90kb/s

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 08:58 PM
Screnshots:

Here's (http://art.gnome.org/screenshots/index.php) a place to start with GNOME, KDE here (http://www.kde-look.org/index.php?xcontentmode=34&PHPSESSID=eb6932cda9f7fec4130bd98d354187fd) , XFCE here (http://xfce.org/index.php?page=screenshots&lang=en) , Fluxbox here (http://fluxbox.org/screenshots-dev.php), Enlightenment here (http://enlightenment.org/pages/shots.html), 3dwm (experimental) here (http://www.3dwm.org/frameset.html), and some wicked cool shots (http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/screenshots/) from Keith Packard's X Server (that will hopefully replace XFree86 at some point)..

I honestly would like you to quantify how you see Windows' GUI as superior to those available on Linux (I brought up Windows-like environments because, if Windows does something well and a DE imitates it, then wouldn't that make them functionally equivalent?).

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 09:01 PM
Also, a nice preview of the upcoming GNOME 2.6 DE:
GNOME 2.6 preview (http://sayamindu.t35.com/GNOME_2_6.html)

legacy-Airjrdn
03-11-2004, 09:18 PM
I honestly would like you to quantify how you see Windows' GUI as superior to those available on Linux (I brought up Windows-like environments because, if Windows does something well and a DE imitates it, then wouldn't that make them functionally equivalent?).

Hmmm...let me think... The word polish comes to mind. Windows seems to have had a little extra time spent on it IMO. I'm trying to think of what makes me say that, but I'm having a hard time putting it to words.

My personal reasons for not using Linux as my primary OS are:

Career - I'm a professional developer (manager as of the last 1.5yrs or so), and we are a Microsoft shop. Databases are SQL Server, clients are all thin; (IE) utilizing code written in .NET.

Software - Although Linux often times has "equivalent" versions of software, they aren't
a) what I'm used to
b) generally as full featured
c) as integrated

I'm referring to how a LOT of Windows software is setup for easy drag & drop functionality, integration with the Office suite, etc.

As for the software itself, I'm unaware of solid, easy to use/administer equivalents to:
Getright
Photoshop (Gimp isn't Photoshop as any real PS user will tell you)
Illustrator
Fraps
Ulead Video Studio
Nero
SQL Server (MySQL doesn't even come close to comparing, and no one can afford or understand Oracle)
.NET - nothing I've seen in the Linux world compares
Adobe Photoshop Album
Additional hardware software (Creative Labs extra software, etc.)
DVD X Copy
ACDSee
Powerquest Drive Image
Hotmail Popper (Check hotmail via Pop3)

The list goes on an on, those are just a few on my start menu right now that I'd have a hard time doing without on a daily basis.

Screwups - as I mentioned before. If I screw something up (video drivers for instance), put me back at 640x460x16 and let me try again. Putting me at a command prompt is unacceptable. If you can't tell, this one's a pet peeve of mine.

Can Linux replace those pieces of software with equivalent or better versions?

legacy-Airjrdn
03-11-2004, 09:23 PM
Also, forgot to mention...

Too many things require me to "configure" them to work properly, efficiently, or at all.

When's the last time you had to manually edit .ini files in windows to get an application to run? Or had to go to multiple sites getting difference patches & pieces of information to get a plugin to work in your browser (assuming your using IE)?

Regular (and power) users aren't going to put up with that. Personally, my time is worth more than that. I love computers, they've been a hobby since around 1982, they support my family, and I can't imagine life without them, but I also want to simply USE them sometimes. There are times when I don't want to have to hack ini files and download Sally's patch and apply it to Bob's fix to make Johnny's application work in my distro with kernel v.2.4.2.2.

A long time ago, I read something in a Slashdot users' sig that made me laugh, but also made a lot of sense....

"Linux is only free if your time has no value."

There's so much truth in that statement IMO, it should be in the dictionary. :)

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 09:39 PM
Not sure I'm familiar with all those software products, but here goes:

Getright->Downloader for X (http://www.krasu.ru/soft/chuchelo/)

You've made your mind up re: PShop. I think it's a difference in interface more than anything, but, you can always run PShop under Crossover Office

Illustrator->SodiPodi (http://www.sodipodi.com/)

Fraps-> Not very familiar with it, but have you seen Cinelerra (http://heroinewarrior.com/cinelerra.php3)?

Ulead-> I know cinelerra does most of that stuff

Nero->K3B (http://www.k3b.org/)

SQL Server-> Why doesn't mySQL count? It kicks the crap out of MSSQL in speed and functionality. If you want another alternative, look at PostgreSQL (http://www.postgresql.org/)

.NET->You mean the IDE? Or the environment? How about Mono (http://www.go-mono.com/) for the runtime and Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org/eclipse/index.html) for the IDE.

AP Album-> Well, there's Album Shaper (http://albumshaper.sourceforge.net/) and a boatload of web based (http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=photo+album&section=projects&Go.x=0&Go.y=0) ones.

DVDXCopy->perl-Video-DVDRip (http://www.exit1.org/dvdrip/)

ACDSee->gPhoto (http://gphoto.org/) or digikam (http://digikam.sourceforge.net/)

Powerquest Drive Image->Ghost 4 UNIX (http://www.feyrer.de/g4u/) , amongst others

Last of all, how about
Mr. Postman (http://mrpostman.sourceforge.net/) ?

Anything else?

*grin*

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 09:46 PM
Also, forgot to mention...

Too many things require me to "configure" them to work properly, efficiently, or at all.

When's the last time you had to manually edit .ini files in windows to get an application to run? Or had to go to multiple sites getting difference patches & pieces of information to get a plugin to work in your browser (assuming your using IE)?

Regular (and power) users aren't going to put up with that. Personally, my time is worth more than that. I love computers, they've been a hobby since around 1982, they support my family, and I can't imagine life without them, but I also want to simply USE them sometimes. There are times when I don't want to have to hack ini files and download Sally's patch and apply it to Bob's fix to make Johnny's application work in my distro with kernel v.2.4.2.2.

A long time ago, I read something in a Slashdot users' sig that made me laugh, but also made a lot of sense....

"Linux is only free if your time has no value."

There's so much truth in that statement IMO, it should be in the dictionary.

When was the last time you installed Linux? Under Fedora, I had less configuring to do than under Windows on the same box. Out of the box, I simply had to install the nVidia drivers. That's it. My sound, network, SCSI, mobo, monitor, etc. all worked straight away. I had to 1) run nVidia's installer and 2) edit one line in a file to read 'nvidia' instead of 'nv'. Pretty easy to me.

As for making plugins work, well, no more than with Windows. There's RPMs available for Flash and Java and an mplayer-plugin that will allow you to use mplayer to play all video codecs right in a webpage (Real, Windows Media, Quicktime), so there's LESS to download, actually.

2.4.2.2, huh? No wonder you don't like Linux! You're 20 revs back on the 2.4 series alone!

*chuckle*

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 09:48 PM
Now, here's a challenge for you:
What 's the Windows equivalent to Synaptic (http://www.nongnu.org/synaptic/) ?

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-11-2004, 09:54 PM
Not to bash what you stated Airjrdn
because apparently it is partially true. But I think Linux would be a major provider for system manufacturers given they had a Multi Billion dollar industry to back them and a Founder worth Billions that created it.

And if they monopolized the whole IT industry to where everyone everywhere on every pc in the office, home, home office had to have its operating system installed and could only get support and updates from their web site, and kept track of thier customers computer information which is pathetic. Oh and not to mention all the other Offsprings of MS software like Office, Outlook, DirectX, etc... That corporations have to use and that for the home user is a little pricey just to write a resume or keep track of financial things.

Its a very wonderful success story, MicroGates and all. But it has begun to get out of hand over the last 3-5 years. If people were more Linux savvy, I think alot of them would be more satisfied using it. Since it is so customizable. Some look at it as a pain in the ass, like I do at the moment. But its just more technical and fit to be where the user has more control over what they want to do with their pcs. Rather than depend on somene else to do it for them.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-11-2004, 09:58 PM
Oh, and *ahem* true support for AMD64, soup-to-nuts, top-to-bottom.

When's that coming for Windows?

legacy-j0ntar
03-11-2004, 11:00 PM
roffles i love o/s wars.

There is no replacement for apt-get, GUI FRONT ended or just plain old command line.



Getright
Photoshop (Gimp isn't Photoshop as any real PS user will tell you)
Illustrator
Fraps
Ulead Video Studio
Nero
SQL Server (MySQL doesn't even come close to comparing, and no one can afford or understand Oracle)
.NET - nothing I've seen in the Linux world compares
Adobe Photoshop Album
Additional hardware software (Creative Labs extra software, etc.)
DVD X Copy
ACDSee
Powerquest Drive Image
Hotmail Popper (Check hotmail via Pop3)


If you take out Photoshop. All that software is over bloated trash. Just look at the new versions of Nero.... TRASH. I can find alternatives on freshmeat that run better or just as good, again except photoshop. There is no replacement for photoshop as of yet, or until its ported over (which may happen if disney and pixar keep complaining)
If your a windows user your a victim of good advertising and a drag & drop mentality. If you drag and drop please dont refer to yourself as an IT professional.

**Powerquest Drive Image->Ghost 4 UNIX , amongst others.....Partimage (http://www.partimage.org/) is very good in this area too.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-11-2004, 11:59 PM
If you drag and drop please dont refer to yourself as an IT professional.

Careful there, don't get personal. I'll stack my salary against yours whenever your W2 is ready. I've been doing professional development for over 10 years now. What's on your resume?

And for it all being bloated trash, that's an overstatment, an opinion, and IMO a vastly incorrect opinion.


Oh, and *ahem* true support for AMD64, soup-to-nuts, top-to-bottom.

How many of those are in users machines right now?


Now, here's a challenge for you:
What 's the Windows equivalent to Synaptic ?

Installshield? Assuming that's what a package manager does. Also note that in Windows, your installed app always goes to the same place (folder structure).


When was the last time you installed Linux?
When the larger distros (Mandrake/Red Hat) came out w/9.2.


1) run nVidia's installer and 2) edit one line in a file to read 'nvidia' instead of 'nv'.
WHY? Why would you even settle for that? What's the point of the install then?

Now the software (thanks for linking those)

Downloader for X - Has a LONG way to go. All of the "Not completed list of key features" are done by even the bad download managers in Windows.

SodiPodi - I'd have to use it to give an honest answer, but 2 questions...what's the deal with Linux users and that anime stuff??? Why is everything either a Beta or lower than V1? Is that an advance excuse for stuff not working?

Cinelerra - Doesn't seem to do what Fraps does. Fraps lets me record frame by frame in D3D to an AVI file (would have to be OpenGL in Linux I assume).


It kicks the crap out of MSSQL in speed and functionality.

I don't even know what to say to that. Only recently has MySQL supported subselects.
How about derived tables?
Views?
Triggers?
Stored Procedures?
User Defined Functions?
Cursors?
XML Support?
Full Transaction Support?
DTS equivalent?
Solid logging?
Job Scheduling?
Profiling?
SAN Support?
Solid Security Model (implenting through views, etc.)?
Data Mining?
OLAP?


Well, there's Album Shaper and a boatload of web based ones.

It's obvious you've never used Photoshop Album. I've only recently begun using it, but w/over 4k pictures, it's been a godsend.

perl-Video-DVDRip - I'd have to use it to give it a fair eval, but once again, what's this stuff?

% cvs -z3 -d :pserver:cvs@cvs.exit1.org:/cvs login
% cvs -z3 -d :pserver:cvs@cvs.exit1.org:/cvs checkout \
-r rel-0-50-patches dvdrip
% cd dvdrip
% perl Makefile.PL # ignore "missing README" message
% make
% ./dvdrip
WTH?

Ghost 4 UNIX - Does that work from the GUI? It appears I have to boot to floppy/CD for it. That's old school in Drive Image. :)

What's becoming clear (to me anyway) is that Linux does have viable alternatives to a lot of the software I'm used to. But that it still lacks features I'm used to, requires hacking/tweaking to get it to install/work, and doesn't seem (for lack of a better term) as polished as the Windows equivalents.

legacy-_Ass_Hamster_
03-12-2004, 12:08 AM
Well done on the Jam lyrics, moda! I loved the Jam in the old days. I lived in Hull for Uni, and listened to them all the time.

I would suggest using an NVidia Ti series card for your Linux machine. With 3D accelleration on, OpenGL smokes. I have a feeble old Ti4200 64MB card and get in the thousands of FPS on GLGears and the OpenGL screensavers. My UT2004 demo looks better on Linux than Windows.

I am about to go to a Radeon 9800 Pro, and to be honest, I wonder whether I'll like it more than my 3 year old GeForce 4.

I'm keeping the GF4 to be a FreeVo/MythTV PVR. I'm very satisfied with it for Linux, and I am a former desktop and server UNIX sysadmin.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 12:10 AM
In Windows you'd like it MUCH better, but with the apparent driver issues, why go ATI w/Linux?

legacy-_Ass_Hamster_
03-12-2004, 12:16 AM
I'm going ATI for gaming only. If it just keeps up with my GF4 under Linux, I'll be fine with that.

I have 3 Linux, one Solaris, one NeXT and one Mac OS X box. And one PC for gaming and dual boot Linux.

legacy-titus7
03-12-2004, 12:57 AM
If graphics card is your primary issue then go with Nvidia. They have put alot of effort into maintaining decent drivers for Linux. There about as good as it gets in the world of open source operating systems (you get what you pay for).

I have no idea why anyone would want a Linux gaming system though. I'm a UNIX fanboy, as I type, 4 Sun workstations, a SGI box, and 4 Linux boxes, sit around me. But, I run win XP for my personal system (gaming, email, web surfing, etc).

Some fool said that Windows is as stable as Linux. Take a look at Netcraft's list of longest running servers. (http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html) Some of those UNIX systems have been running almost 5 years without a reboot. I challenge anyone to show me a machine running any Microsoft operating system that has been up for 6 months. I realize Microsoft machines have to be rebooted due to patches, etc. But, you would still expect to see at least a few machines with long uptimes. As far as I can tell they do not exist.

-titus

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 01:55 AM
You people prolly think Im insane by now. But after off and on attempts all day long to try and install RH9 I gave up on it. So I downloaded Fedora. 3 big ISOs just like Rh9, about a 4 hour wait time or so. I burnt the isos just like I did with RH9. But this time I burnt them a little slower, @ around 16X instead of 42X. Just as a process of elimination in narrowing down my install problems list.

And not to my suprise, when I put in the Fedora Disk 1 it didnt boot into a normal install. It booted with the screen giving the F1 F2 F3 F4 and so on options for going into rescue mode etc. I did that since its the only thing I could do. I typed
"Linux 512M noprobe" Cant remember cause im so tired haha. Neway I did that and did it without typing that and the boot still froze at the text blah blah blah apm Bios version blah blah blah after probing hardware and ****. So I went back into windows and deleted the partitions that had RH9 on it. Deleted another partition on another drive for the hell of it. Now Im defragmenting my primary hard drive partition 1 since Ive put it thru hell today. I cant see my 2nd drive in windows to defrag it also. But at least I deleted the partitions with linux on it so maybe when I get done typing this I can try to install Fedora again. If it doesnt work im gonna pass out and prolly break something.

Thats one thing I do like about winblows is that its pretty simple to install. Every ****ing version of linux I have tried to install has been a pain in the arse. ttyl

legacy-yewnuhtee
03-12-2004, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
<snip>

Yeah, RH gave me problems before too. So did FreeBSD. Only *nix os' I haven't had problems installing were SuSE 9.0 and Mandrake 7.2 or something like that. Hardware compatabilities are a different story. :(

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
Ok I rebooted after the first install and selected linux, hit enter. Booted thru a whole page of text looked like it was verifying stuff then it froze at the line

apm: BIOS version 1.2 Flags 0x03 (Driver version 1.16)

When you boot off the CD, you should be prompted with some options at some point like "no-smp" or "no-acpi" or "no-apm." You might want to see if you can use "no-acpi" or "no-apm" at the prompt. You need to hit a key to interrupt the normal boot sequence and get a listing of these options.

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
Additional applications that ship with a distro don't make Linux easier to use.

Sure it does since the user doesn't even have to think about what is needed to get started on a web/e-mail/workstation machine. It's the reason Microsoft bundles wordpad, Internet Explorer, and Outlook with their OS.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
The ability to compile applications doesn't make Linux easier to use.

Try running Windows XP on a Sparc and then tell me not being able to compile everything doesn't make things easier.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
Scripting - In Windows, you simply press a key at bootup and you can say yes/no to each and every driver prior to it loading. Again, this does nothing for ease of use.

Sure it does when something goes wrong.

Having different runlevels means the user doesn't have to select everything individually, but can just go at it in any runlevel from 0-5. A ton easier than going through everything one by one.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
Installation - again, has nothing to do with ease of use.

For people who don't get their OS from the system manufacturer, it does.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
The GUI - this is where ease of use can be measured most accurately. While Linux is improving greatly, it still can't come close to Windows.]

Care to cite some examples, as I have done?


Originally posted by Airjrdn
Screwups - this is a big one. Find 10 everyday computer users, and install bad video drivers. Reboot the machine and see how many of the 10 can install new drivers. In Linux, you are now at that oh so pretty command prompt. Lovely isn't it? In Windows, you are in the GUI, 640x480 @ 16 colors, and browsing the web is the same as before, just uglier.

In X you can put multiple drivers in the "Driver" section of the config file. They're evaluated top to bottom, so you can put as many fallback drivers as you want in there. So you can put the most recently installed one up top and if it fails the one listed below it will be used instead. So you can start with the latest+greatest, move down to a 'safe' driver for a specified device, and then use svga or vga as a last resort. Additionally, since X probes for the highest available resolution and color depth, you won't just be stuck at 640x480x16. Additionally, X produces a very verbose logfile so you can actually figure out what the hell is going wrong and fix it yourself, or at least consult an expert.\

And if for some reason all those drivers have been screwed up somehow, you still have the trusty 'ol command prompt. With Windows, you'd get a BSOD on bootup and forced to re-install and re-activate.

And why would a bad video driver affect one's net connection?


Originally posted by Airjrdn
How about driver installation? ATI is known for poor Linux drivers.

They're known for poor Windows drivers, too :haha:


Originally posted by Airjrdn
Why should I be forced to purchase an Nvidia card just because of the OS I chose?

Nobody's forcing you to buy anything. But if you enjoy being pissed on by ATi, that's your business.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
I personally run an ATI 9700 Pro because I feel it's one of the best cards out there. It's a good thing I'm not running Linux huh?]

No, it's just a bad thing ATi choosen to neglect a percentage of their customers up until just recently. But they do have accelerated drivers here (http://www.ati.com/support/drivers/linux/radeon-linux.html?type=linux&prodType=graphic&prod=productsLINUXdriver&submit.x=9&submit.y=9), I'll let someone who is currently running an ATi comment on ease of use.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
Drivers (again)...How many wireless NIC's have you seen work upon bootup of one of the Linux livecd's? I've not seen one, but have tried about 6 of the livecd's.

Broadcom's support for sucks, I'll give you that, but the Linux kernel has had drivers for Prism and Orinoco devices for years. Many PCMCIA-PCI bridge devices, too.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
A large portion of what I see is due to there NOT being one central point of project management.

Umm, Red Hat? SuSE/Novell? Mandrake? Do any of those sound familiar?

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 03:44 AM
Originally posted by titus7
I realize Microsoft machines have to be rebooted due to patches, etc. But, you would still expect to see at least a few machines with long uptimes.

Why should they get a break for having to be patched?

Even GNU/Linux systems have this problem. FreeBSD just doesn't need to be patched very often. And any sysadmin that neglects a patch so he can brag about a better uptime deserves to be rooted.

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by j0ntar
roffles i love o/s wars.

:up:


Originally posted by j0ntar
If you drag and drop please dont refer to yourself as an IT professional.

:up: :up:

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
Careful there, don't get personal. I'll stack my salary against yours whenever your W2 is ready.

You're grandfathered in, good for you. IT isn't what it used to be, which is why most of the new jobs in that area are going to India for slave labor prices.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
Installshield?

Not even close.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
WHY? Why would you even settle for that? What's the point of the install then?

Because you don't have to reboot just to install a graphics driver.

I haven't used most of the software that other guy listed, so I'll skip that. But CVS is easy, and there are several graphical CVS managers. Heck, KDE's file browser even has CVS integrated. The commands given in whatever file you read are just one way of getting the latest source code checked into the CVS repository.

legacy-gogobongopop
03-12-2004, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by Ass_Hamster
Well done on the Jam lyrics, moda! I loved the Jam in the old days. I lived in Hull for Uni, and listened to them all the time.


:up:
Where are the Lennons and Wellers today eh? The nearest we have to revolution is Simon Cowell :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Ass_Hamster

I would suggest using an NVidia Ti series card for your Linux machine. With 3D accelleration on, OpenGL smokes. I have a feeble old Ti4200 64MB card and get in the thousands of FPS on GLGears and the OpenGL screensavers. My UT2004 demo looks better on Linux than Windows.


I'm gonna try getting it installed today and over the weekend. If I can't I'm gonna send the card back for a refund and pop my old MX440 in for now untill I can find a Ti series. People seem to have much better luck with that over the FX series.

Still its all good fun eh?!

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 06:24 AM
Airrjdn:
I'm surprised that you're scared off by a little CVS'ing, but here's the nice thing about almost all the software I listed: it's available in either the official Fedora, Freshrpms, Newrpms, Livna, ATRpms, or Dag Wieer's repositories.

All I have to do to get install access to a whole host of software is add a line or two to /etc/yum.conf or /etc/apt/sources.list.

Then, I can install perl-Video-DVDRip straight from Synaptic, or I can 'apt-get install perl-Video-DVDRip' or 'yum install perl-Video-DVDRip' and it'll get installed straight from Freshrpms (http://yarrow.freshrpms.net/rpm.html?id=597) .

I would like to see InstallShield manage auto dependency checking and remote installs.

Apt, yum and the like are INCREDIBLY useful tools that, to date, have no real alternative in Windows (Cygwin's installer doesn't count).

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 09:15 AM
Sure it does since the user doesn't even have to think about what is needed to get started on a web/e-mail/workstation machine. It's the reason Microsoft bundles wordpad, Internet Explorer, and Outlook with their OS.

No, it doesn't. Additional applications do NOT make an OS easier to use. And I can assure you, making the OS easier to use is NOT why those applications are bundled with Windows.


Try running Windows XP on a Sparc and then tell me not being able to compile everything doesn't make things easier.

Why do I need to run WinXP on a Sparc? What's wrong with Intel/AMD machines?


Having different runlevels means the user doesn't have to select everything individually, but can just go at it in any runlevel from 0-5. A ton easier than going through everything one by one.

In Windows those are called Hardware Profiles.


RE (Installation) - For people who don't get their OS from the system manufacturer, it does.

No, once again, you are confusing the issue. Installation of an OS has NOTHING to do with ease of USE. That would be ease of INSTALLATION.


In X you can put multiple drivers in the "Driver" section of the config file. They're evaluated top to bottom, so you can put as many fallback drivers as you want in there. So you can put the most recently installed one up top and if it fails the one listed below it will be used instead. So you can start with the latest+greatest, move down to a 'safe' driver for a specified device, and then use svga or vga as a last resort.

OH, that's MUCH more efficient. I'll just install every driver I can find (talk about bloat) and when the primary 5 don't work (because I didn't hack up a .cfg file correctly) it'll failover. In Windows I get the same basic feature by only installing the video driver I'm supposed to be using.


They're known for poor Windows drivers, too
Uh huh. Talk about something you currently use. They had poor drivers around 2 to 2.5 years ago. A lot's changed.


I'll give you that, but the Linux kernel has had drivers for Prism and Orinoco devices for years. Many PCMCIA-PCI bridge devices, too.
Prism, Orinoco? What about the cards people are going to buy at Best Buy/Circuit City/Walmart? You know, D-Link, Linksys, etc.


Umm, Red Hat? SuSE/Novell? Mandrake? Do any of those sound familiar?

Yeah, they sound like OS's I don't use. ;)


But, you would still expect to see at least a few machines with long uptimes. As far as I can tell they do not exist.

Then you aren't working in a professional environment. We've got machines that crunch data 8 hours a day 7 days a week and are up until "reboot required" patches are applied.


I'm surprised that you're scared off by a little CVS'ing,
You're misunderstanding; scared isn't at all the issue. The issue is, I shouldn't HAVE to do it. If I have to manually edit .ini/.cfg files post install to make something work, the install didn't do it's job. It's as simple as that.

With regards to Installshield, I personally dont use it, it's just one of the more popular ones. The fact that everything we do in-house is web-based neglects the need for client installs. I can assure you though, when we were doing them, there was no .cfg file editing after the fact. ;)

As for

You're grandfathered in, good for you. IT isn't what it used to be, which is why most of the new jobs in that area are going to India for slave labor prices.

Please. I've been in this company for under 3yrs, and as a professional in the industry for 10. That's hardly grandfathered in.

I am curious though, what happened to the MySQL vs SQL Server argument?

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 09:21 AM
You mean like MaxDB by MySQL?

MaxDB (http://www.mysql.com/products/maxdb/index.html)

It features:
* Views
* Server-side cursors
* Stored procedures and triggers
* Automatic failover (to a standby server)
* Scheduling and automatic messaging on alerts
* Snapshots
* Archive tables
* Synonyms

Complete list of features here (http://www.mysql.com/products/maxdb/features.html) .

All available under a GPL license.

legacy-j0ntar
03-12-2004, 09:33 AM
A medium for all.

http://www.xpde.com/shots.php


-=P

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 09:54 AM
I've ran XPde, and you can tell....it's still Linux.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 09:58 AM
No, it doesn't. Additional applications do NOT make an OS easier to use. And I can assure you, making the OS easier to use is NOT why those applications are bundled with Windows.


You're right, sort of. Additional applications make an OS more useful out of the box, not necessarily easier to use. Some might conflate the first to be equivalent to the second.

And, on your second point, how can you be sure? Do you work for MS? Hvae you sat in on any of their usability planning sessions?



Why do I need to run WinXP on a Sparc? What's wrong with Intel/AMD machines?

Maybe you have lots of legacy hardware, like many of us in the defense industry do and you want to run an up-to-date OS on the hardware, but you don't feel like supporting Solaris 9 in addition to your RedHat EL desktops.



In Windows those are called Hardware Profiles.


No, Hardware Profiles are quite different than the UNIX runlevels. init 0 = machine shut down, init 1 = single user mode, init 3 (generally) = text-mode login, init 5 = boot to X. 2, 4 and 6 are rarely used (although different *NIX OS's implement different functionality for those runlevels. A few use 6 to equate to "reboot", IIRC).


No, once again, you are confusing the issue. Installation of an OS has NOTHING to do with ease of USE. That would be ease of INSTALLATION.


Granted.



OH, that's MUCH more efficient. I'll just install every driver I can find (talk about bloat) and when the primary 5 don't work (because I didn't hack up a .cfg file correctly) it'll failover. In Windows I get the same basic feature by only installing the video driver I'm supposed to be using.

Uh huh. Talk about something you currently use. They had poor drivers around 2 to 2.5 years ago. A lot's changed.


It hasn't been 2.5 years since ATI came up with non-horked Windows drivers. It's been within the last year or so. The early Catalyst releases still suffered from the old ATI maladies, and it was only recently that I quit recommending to ATI users that "unless something's broken, don't upgrade, because I can't guarantee that you'll ever get your card working right again."



Prism, Orinoco? What about the cards people are going to buy at Best Buy/Circuit City/Walmart? You know, D-Link, Linksys, etc.

Your ignorance is showing. Orinoco and Prism are common wireless chipsets. Many of the Linksys products (used to) use Prism chips; I'm not sure what their 54g stuff is running on, but I'm sure Google could reveal more info.



Yeah, they sound like OS's I don't use.

More's the pity for you.



Then you aren't working in a professional environment. We've got machines that crunch data 8 hours a day 7 days a week and are up until "reboot required" patches are applied.

And this issue usually comes down to individual experience, as I've had plenty of XP boxes crap out for various reasons in a "professional environment". Granted, it crashes a lot less than previous revs of MS OS's (maybe excepting Win2k).



You're misunderstanding; scared isn't at all the issue. The issue is, I shouldn't HAVE to do it. If I have to manually edit .ini/.cfg files post install to make something work, the install didn't do it's job. It's as simple as that.

And to me, the issue is: I don't want to have to go through a clickfest to get my software working. Maybe you enjoy having to deal with endless popup dialogs, but I'd much rather be faced with a single text file with comments pointing out common settings and the adjustments I might like to make to get my software to work better. You can have your GUI installs and deal with RDP or VNC to do remote adminning, I'll stick to my easy-as-pie text files edited with vi over an ssh connection.



With regards to Installshield, I personally dont use it, it's just one of the more popular ones. The fact that everything we do in-house is web-based neglects the need for client installs. I can assure you though, when we were doing them, there was no .cfg file editing after the fact.

You're dodging the issue. I'm looking for a Windows equivalent to apt/rum repositories in terms of 1) ease-of-use and 2) vast variety of software mere clicks/keystrokes away.



Please. I've been in this company for under 3yrs, and as a professional in the industry for 10. That's hardly grandfathered in.

In my experience, high pay != more competence. I've seen some very highly-paid morons in my time (not saying that you are, just that pay grade is definitively not a reliable indicator for overall intelligence or competence)



I am curious though, what happened to the MySQL vs SQL Server argument?

See above post.

legacy-gogobongopop
03-12-2004, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by j0ntar
A medium for all.

http://www.xpde.com/shots.php


-=P

I really cant see the point in that. I went to Linux to get away from the Fisher Price'ness of Windows XP

Still....

legacy-yewnuhtee
03-12-2004, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
No, once again, you are confusing the issue. Installation of an OS has NOTHING to do with ease of USE. That would be ease of INSTALLATION.

If they can't INSTALL it, they can't USE it. It all correlates. ;)

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 10:02 AM
Shazbot! It should have been "apt/yum repositories", not "rum".

*slaps forehead*

legacy-.InSanE.
03-12-2004, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Logue
gets 80fps on 2k4 so cant be that borked I'm getting double that with my 9700 Pro.

legacy-j0ntar
03-12-2004, 10:19 AM
the xpde thing was an attemp at humor guys. jebus!.


Your choice in O/S is exactly that choice. Argueing about it does no good. Plus all M$ users know that Linux users are more intelligent and "computer" competent. That is why they use M$ products so they dont have to think, or configure, or do much of anything other than CLICK, CLICK.

If you cant install fedora or redhat, you should not even own a PC. It is easier than installing windows, with less questions. Sure some newbs get hung up at disk druid but i do recall the XP installer asking partition questions also.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 10:25 AM
j0ntar:
Actually, I think the XPde thing is a good idea, if only to help weed Windows-to-Linux transplants get their feet under them.

Then move them to WindowMaker. *grin*

legacy-yewnuhtee
03-12-2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by j0ntar
Your choice in O/S is exactly that choice. Argueing about it does no good. Plus all M$ users know that Linux users are more intelligent and "computer" competent. That is why they use M$ products so they dont have to think, or configure, or do much of anything other than CLICK, CLICK.

If you cant install fedora or redhat, you should not even own a PC. It is easier than installing windows, with less questions. Sure some newbs get hung up at disk druid but i do recall the XP installer asking partition questions also.

Is this part of your humor too? :weird:

Where are your hard facts that this is true? You can't find any I bet. When I use a computer, I don't want to have to think, or configure, or do much of anything. Why is that? BECAUSE IT'S A ****ING COMPUTER AND SHOULD DO IT ITSELF FFS.

On your second quoted paragraph, uhh.. where'd that come from? What about a child needing the computer for simple learning programs? What about someone trying out a computer for the first time? Hmm.. only thinking for yourself, eh? :rolleyes:

You disgust me.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 10:55 AM
Most children I know don't "own" their own machines.

I'll admit, though, that his rhetoric is overblown in the extreme.

I think he was trying to make a point, though: if you whine that Linux is too hard to install, perhaps you should rethink this whole computer usage thing. It's dead easy to install most modern distros (Debian and Gentoo excluded). Give most computer users a machine with a blank HDD and a Fedora install prompt and I'd bet dollars-to-donuts they'd have a working machine in short order.

Just my $.02.

legacy-yewnuhtee
03-12-2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by ZaMoose
Most children I know don't "own" their own machines.

I'll admit, though, that his rhetoric is overblown in the extreme.

I think he was trying to make a point, though: if you whine that Linux is too hard to install, perhaps you should rethink this whole computer usage thing. It's dead easy to install most modern distros (Debian and Gentoo excluded). Give most computer users a machine with a blank HDD and a Fedora install prompt and I'd bet dollars-to-donuts they'd have a working machine in short order.

Just my $.02.

Same concept, different scenario.

Yep.

So they have a blank HDD and Fedora. What about compatible hardware? That's the hugest issue with computers that have windows pre-installed, or probably just computers with no OS at all. They might be able to get 640x480, but they won't be able to access the internet or hear any audio, so what's the fun in that?

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 11:20 AM
Your choice in O/S is exactly that choice. Argueing about it does no good. Plus all M$ users know that Linux users are more intelligent and "computer" competent. That is why they use M$ products so they dont have to think, or configure, or do much of anything other than CLICK, CLICK.

OS is a choice - agreed.


Plus all M$ users know that Linux users are more intelligent and "computer" competent.

BS


And to me, the issue is: I don't want to have to go through a clickfest to get my software working. Maybe you enjoy having to deal with endless popup dialogs, but I'd much rather be faced with a single text file with comments pointing out common settings and the adjustments I might like to make to get my software to work better. You can have your GUI installs and deal with RDP or VNC to do remote adminning, I'll stick to my easy-as-pie text files edited with vi over an ssh connection.

I'm not sure about the clickfest you are referring to. Most Winstalls require 4 or 5 clicks and you are ready to rock. For me personally, I'd rather click 15 times than have to read a manual to do an install. Preference I guess, but I can't imagine most people would rather take the vi route.

As for remoting, I do use TightVNC & Remote Desktop. Until Windows Server 2003 I preferred TightVNC, I'll have to get back w/you on RD vs TightVNC post Server 2k3.

As for vi, there's just nothing user friendly about that. Have your Mom try to use it.


Your ignorance is showing. Orinoco and Prism are common wireless chipsets. Many of the Linksys products (used to) use Prism chips; I'm not sure what their 54g stuff is running on, but I'm sure Google could reveal more info.

No doubt. That's the beauty of it. Why do I care about the chipset my wireless NIC is using? As a USER I shouldn't have to. I should just install the software (if necessary) and it work.

In the end, it all comes down to one of a few deciding factors. Money, opinion, software availability, familiarity, perceived ease of use, etc.

Money - $200 or so for an OS every few years is fine w/me.
Opinion - Self explanatory
Software Avail - Linux has a ton out there too (now). I'm still suspect on the installation, configuration, and ease of use though.
Familiarity - People don't like change. I've been using Windows since 3.0. I don't have to look for things, I know right where they are.
Ease of use - Relates to familiarity.

Had I gotten used to the Linux equivalents of each of the software packages I use in a given day, I'm sure I could make due. I might even like some of them better. But to switch, I'd have to give up things I'm used to, and I'm not willing to do that. Especially if I'm always having to configure things, hack around in files, read manuals to get things installed / configured, etc.

For Linux to gain desktop market share, it's still got some work ahead of it. IMO that work relates to polish (one of my original posts). Polish includes me not having to hack files or read manuals to get things installed. I can read, we call can or we wouldn't be here. It's whether or not the extra effort is worth it in the end.

In the end, I'm left with an OS that offers more flexibility, security (let's not go there though), and is free. What I'm left without though are some of the things I've grown used to, an OS that doesn't require me (as a user) to HAVE to learn small amounts of programming, the thought behind keyword value pairs, etc. I'm also left without solid driver support for ALL hardware peripherals (Linux users have to pick and choose what works best with their OS). I'm not dissing your OS of choice, I'm saying at this point, it's still not for me...or 95% of the other PC users out there.

legacy-j0ntar
03-12-2004, 11:47 AM
yewnuhtee if were a linux user i would suggest that you do a

apt-get install humor

for it would prolly lighten your up your day, walking around disgusted all the time has to be painful.


Linux users hate questions (well cept for those nutty debian users, that install has WAY to many questions) We dont want the installer to ask questions, we dont want software to ask questions.

example: Are you sure you want to logoff.

Well YES IM SURE, I WOULDNT HIT THE LOG OFF BUTTON IF IM NOT BLoODY SURE.

example: Internet explorer is not your default browser would you like to make it so.

Well if i installed another browser there bill gates, then im sure i dont.

example: I get alt-tabbed in a game cause bill gates is assuming my keys are sticking.

listen here asshat dont alt tab me, i just had Mega Kill and i was going for Ultra Kill.

I cant tell you how many issues arise from the assumptions this windows o/s makes. It is a hassle and well i dont like it.

(remeber guys take what i say with humor, i dont want you disgusted on my behalf)

legacy-yewnuhtee
03-12-2004, 11:56 AM
Questions have actually saved me a few times. Maybe not necessarily questions, but confirmations. Same thing I guess.. *shrug*

Like, I go to install something but dont look over every option, and at last glance I spot something I should've read from the beginning. Saved. GG_Windows.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 12:07 PM
nice thread
typical INA flame war lol
i officially give up on booting into red crap
if its this damn hard to install and boot into linux forget it

legacy-gogobongopop
03-12-2004, 12:07 PM
:(

Not working guys

:(

I'm glum.

I've run the install script and everything goes fine and says its installed with no trouble. But when I try and run Sax2 or Xserver with the nvidia drivers X just crashes, all I get is a black screen with the garble down at the bottom

:(

I know something has worked coz I've seen the Nvidia screen come up several times. I just dont get it. Guess I have to send the card back and try something else.

legacy-titus7
03-12-2004, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by DeathPenguin
Why should they get a break for having to be patched?

Even GNU/Linux systems have this problem. FreeBSD just doesn't need to be patched very often. And any sysadmin that neglects a patch so he can brag about a better uptime deserves to be rooted.

No UNIX or UNIX-like operating system has to be rebooted as often as Windows. Most patches do not require a reboot on UNIX. A machine running a 5 year old version of FreeBSD with no patches installed and no services running could easily run for 5 years if left alone and there were no hardware failures. The netcraft statistics prove it. There is no Microsoft operating system that can do the same.


-titus

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 12:43 PM
No UNIX or UNIX-like operating system has to be rebooted as often as Windows. Most patches do not require a reboot on UNIX. A machine running a 5 year old version of FreeBSD with no patches installed and no services running could easily run for 5 years if left alone and there were no hardware failures. The netcraft statistics prove it. There is no Microsoft operating system that can do the same.

*sigh* WinNT/2K/2K3 can run for extended periods of time depending on what they are running. We're running a few Linux machines here, and a couple of them have to be rebooted once a month. So much for your theory. I can't give you specifics as I don't work directly w/those servers. I can only tell you what I know.


nice thread
typical INA flame war lol


Not at all. I don't feel this is a flame war at all. Both sides are producing evidence backing up their opinion. I think it's educating if nothing else.

What do my Linux counterparts think so far?

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
No, it doesn't. Additional applications do NOT make an OS easier to use. And I can assure you, making the OS easier to use is NOT why those applications are bundled with Windows.

I'm not taking your word for anything. Explain this.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
Why do I need to run WinXP on a Sparc? What's wrong with Intel/AMD machines?

They're not the best at everything, particularly at server apps when there are Power4s with 24MB L3 cache that totally ream anything by Intel and AMD.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
In Windows those are called Hardware Profiles.

There's also services. If you have an FTP daemon or something that you don't want started, does that go in the 'hardware profile' too?



Originally posted by Airjrdn
No, once again, you are confusing the issue. Installation of an OS has NOTHING to do with ease of USE. That would be ease of INSTALLATION.

And many distros have very easy to use installers.



Originally posted by Airjrdn
OH, that's MUCH more efficient. I'll just install every driver I can find (talk about bloat) and when the primary 5 don't work (because I didn't hack up a .cfg file correctly) it'll failover. In Windows I get the same basic feature by only installing the video driver I'm supposed to be using.

You can install as many or as few as you want. Want only one fallback option? Fine, have fun with a 640x480x8 display. I'll take a high-res, high color display any day over that.

You want bloated? Try de-selecting IE from your Windows installer.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
Prism, Orinoco? What about the cards people are going to buy at Best Buy/Circuit City/Walmart? You know, D-Link, Linksys, etc.

Many of them use Prism or Orinico chipsets. Linksys does not make their own networking chips. I'm not all that familiar with D-Link products, but the Linux kernel does have support for their 6xx series networking chips. Bluetooth is also fully supported.


Originally posted by Airjrdn
Then you aren't working in a professional environment. We've got machines that crunch data 8 hours a day 7 days a week and are up until "reboot required" patches are applied.

Care to point out even ONE Windows machine on Netcraft that's been up for even close to as long as any of those FreeBSD machines?


Originally posted by Airjrdn
You're misunderstanding; scared isn't at all the issue. The issue is, I shouldn't HAVE to do it. If I have to manually edit .ini/.cfg files post install to make something work, the install didn't do it's job. It's as simple as that.

Who ever said you had to? It's completely optional. A distro like SuSE 9 can install the binary nVidia drivers and do all necessary configuration for you. I haven't tried the other distros in a while so I won't comment on those.

Besides, it's nVidia's installer. ***** to them if you don't like it.

legacy-j0ntar
03-12-2004, 12:49 PM
yeh i agree with GrandFather XP here, this is actually the first "o/s war" post that i have seen that hasnt gotten out of hand.

It is productive and it lets people that dont really care, see what those who really do care, care about -=P

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by ZaMoose
And to me, the issue is: I don't want to have to go through a clickfest to get my software working. Maybe you enjoy having to deal with endless popup dialogs, but I'd much rather be faced with a single text file with comments pointing out common settings and the adjustments I might like to make to get my software to work better. You can have your GUI installs and deal with RDP or VNC to do remote adminning, I'll stick to my easy-as-pie text files edited with vi over an ssh connection.

Ditto for me. I've just had too many difficulties with wizard installers that make all sorts of incorrect assumptions. And god help you if you want to uninstall a program. Again, just my personal experience, but removing a program from Windows is like 10x harder than it should be. When the uninstaller fails, like if a file is missing, what do you do? You HACK ON THE REGISTRY ARRGHHH! And if you screw something up in there, then you get to reboot into 'last known good configuration' and try again, hoping that nothing else was wiped out in the process.

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
nice thread
typical INA flame war lol
i officially give up on booting into red crap
if its this damn hard to install and boot into linux forget it

Nah, a typical INA flame war involves a lot more l33tspeek.

i r l33ter th4n j00 n00b c4k3z.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 01:14 PM
modaceface:
Why not try something other than SuSE?

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 01:26 PM
*sigh* WinNT/2K/2K3 can run for extended periods of time depending on what they are running. We're running a few Linux machines here, and a couple of them have to be rebooted once a month. So much for your theory. I can't give you specifics as I don't work directly w/those servers. I can only tell you what I know.


"Have" to be rebooted, or is it just the admins don't know how to properly admin a box?

Before I could diagnose your problems (and it sounds like a problem to me) I'd have to know what distro, what kernel, and what hardware they're dealing with that "requires" a monthly reboot.

legacy-_Ass_Hamster_
03-12-2004, 01:31 PM
Yeah, that's what I thought, too.

Just because _your_ kruft doesn't work right, doesn't mean that well-maintained quality hosts running linux can't be enterprise level.

I adminned Sun and Linux boxes at IBM, and I guarantee that quality hardware with a quality integration will give you far better uptime and servicability than an identical number of Windows boxes.

Windows is a desktop environement. There is no such thing as Windows Server. It's not mission critical quality. Read the EULA, they admit it right there in all the fine print.

What controls the world's banks databases, nuclear reactors, aircraft carriers, air traffic control and MRI units? UNIX.

What plays games and attracts virus writers? Windows.

legacy-Tom_Blaze
03-12-2004, 01:49 PM
ZaMoose,

Thanks for the perspective. Linux has caught my attention in the last few months so I am learning as much about it as i can. I do hate MS and I do advocate stealing everything you can from them :) They deserve it. They stole their OS from Steve Jobs over at Apple and then they cry about their source code...screw them.

Back to Linux. Does anyone know where I could find a good website with info on this? Anyone have a good recommendation for linux books? Also, with all the different OSes based on Linux, which is a good one to startout with...Red Hat, Suse etc...?

I think I have just taken for granted the ease at which one can install apps in windows and manual install gets tedious, but I do remember the days of installing DOS progs manually. LOL..Installing DOOM 1 was a nightmare for me..it was the first prog i tried to install...(this is back in 93).

Anyway im thinking of taking Linux a little more seriously. I have this dream of a MS Free cyberlife :)

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 01:53 PM
Tom:
A good book for starting on Fedora (the distro I would recommend you start on) would be:
The Fedora Bible (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764543334/qid=1079117473/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-4413374-1182526?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) . It's a bit newbie-centric, but it will give you a feel for Fedora.

If you're more interested in getting to know Linux straight up, look into Running Linux (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596002726/qid=1079117561/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-4413374-1182526) . It's far more comprehensive of an overview of the way Linux (not just a certain distro) works and is a handy reference guide to have hanging around.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 01:55 PM
Also, once you have Fedora installed, I'd recommend that you join the Fedora mailing list (http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list).

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 02:19 PM
DIE!!!


seriously, can someone educate me on the Linux (dos-like) command prompt. I was reading that someone with my problem typed in

apm=off

and could boot into thier linux os. i turned apm off thru my bios. but i still got the problem. maybe i gotta do it specifically thru the linux prompt, whichever or wherever.

where do I type this and how?

only command prompts I can get are

grub>
&
boot>

:weird:

legacy-ColdPack
03-12-2004, 02:24 PM
There's always Mandrake.
I run Debian, but Mandrake is silly-easy to install.
Mandrake 10 is out and you have the option of using the new 2.6x kernel, but not sure how that's working out.
Anyway, on a test install of Mandrake 10 yesterday on a spare box, it worked perfectly.
Or someone might suggest Lindows which is also easier to install than it is to cook fish sticks. :)
CP

legacy-Zyngath
03-12-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by DeathPenguin
Ditto for me. I've just had too many difficulties with wizard installers that make all sorts of incorrect assumptions. And god help you if you want to uninstall a program. Again, just my personal experience, but removing a program from Windows is like 10x harder than it should be. When the uninstaller fails, like if a file is missing, what do you do? You HACK ON THE REGISTRY ARRGHHH! And if you screw something up in there, then you get to reboot into 'last known good configuration' and try again, hoping that nothing else was wiped out in the process.

Thats really funny. All that 99,9% of all Windows application installations ask you is:
1.) Where do you want the program to be installed?
2.) Do you want a shortcut to the program on your desktop?
3.) Do you want to read a readme file with the latest information?

I really dont see where you can go wrong there. And even if you go wrong somewhere the wizard will let you know about your mistake and give you a chance to correct it.

The same goes for uninstalling something from your Windows system. I never had to edit my registry to uninstall something, but even if i had to do it, then its just the same as medling with some config files in linux...and that can just as well result in a system that wont boot up anymore.

You can say a lot of bad things about Windows, but this argument is really far off the reality of the everyday windows usage.

legacy-titus7
03-12-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
*sigh* WinNT/2K/2K3 can run for extended periods of time depending on what they are running. We're running a few Linux machines here, and a couple of them have to be rebooted once a month. So much for your theory. I can't give you specifics as I don't work directly w/those servers. I can only tell you what I know.


I guess that depends on your definition of "extended periods of time". Netcraft use to keep statistics of average uptimes for various operating systems. The average uptime for NT 4.0 SP3 was something like 18 days, NT 4.0 SP6a 28 days, Windows 2000 was something like 50 days, the last I checked Windows 2000 SP4 and Windows 2003 was something like 130 days. The stats reflect improved stability with each release, but their still not even close to those for UNIX operating systems. I doubt that Linux needs to be rebooted once a month. You may have some software runnning that is screwing something up or you may have administrators with little UNIX exerience that think the solution to everything involves a reboot. But, if you leave the machine alone and you dont have any hardware failures the operating system has the capability to run for years without a reboot. Windows just can't do that.

-titus

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 03:36 PM
HELLO!

anyone got a clue why I cant boot into red hat?!?!

Ive tried these things:

at the
grub> boot linux apm=off

Error 8: Kernel must be loaded before booting

Ok that didnt work. ANd I dont know how to load the kernel.

Now im in the Grub version 0.93 (639k lower / 523008K Upper Memory. Screen with the commands in the window.
insert imaginary window here:

root (hdb1,0)
Kernel /vmlinuz - 2.4.20-8 ro root=LABEL=/hdd=ide-scsi
initrd / initrd - 2.4.20-8.img

I tried editing root (hdb1,0) to read root (hdb2,0) root (hda1,0) root (hdb1,1) root (hdb1,2) etc etc.

Keep getting errors

Error 23 Error while parsing number

IM LOSING PATIENCE! (smashes something)

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 03:46 PM
1) Make sure there's a space between "LABEL=/" and "hdd=ide-scsi".

2) After the hdd=ide-scsi put "apm=off" So your line would be:


kernel /vmlinuz - 2.4.20-8 ro boot=LABEL=/ hdd=ide-scsi apm=off


You can pass additional parameters, as needed, by appending them to the end of the line.

Let us know if that works for you.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by titus7
I guess that depends on your definition of "extended periods of time". Netcraft use to keep statistics of average uptimes for various operating systems. The average uptime for NT 4.0 SP3 was something like 18 days, NT 4.0 SP6a 28 days, Windows 2000 was something like 50 days, the last I checked Windows 2000 SP4 and Windows 2003 was something like 130 days. The stats reflect improved stability with each release, but their still not even close to those for UNIX operating systems. I doubt that Linux needs to be rebooted once a month. You may have some software runnning that is screwing something up or you may have administrators with little UNIX exerience that think the solution to everything involves a reboot. But, if you leave the machine alone and you dont have any hardware failures the operating system has the capability to run for years without a reboot. Windows just can't do that.

-titus

Let me ask you something... How many top professional companies do you know that give rats a$$ about Netcraft? You've hit it multiple times in this thread, but it's useless. We've got Windows servers (yes there are Windows servers) here that maintain average uptimes much greater than 130 days.
Do we submit that to Netcraft? No.
Will we? No.
Is there any reason to? No.
Is there any benefit for us to? No.

Starting to get the picture? Hopefully.

Just curious, what do you do for a living?

legacy-DarkHydra
03-12-2004, 04:10 PM
Here't the opinion of the linux-newbie...

Yeah, Windows is easier to use. It's kind of hard to deny that. The problem is that windows is also very limiting (like you said: You only get 3 options when installing something. In linux you can compile the stuff to suit your own needs. Quite the difference), Windows is less safe, and Linux simply gives you more options, instead of whoever-made-the-installer-and-the-config-menu. Yeah, that comes at a cost in ease of use, but for many it's worth it. Windows is still a requirement for the gamer, though, since too few games run on it.

Both have their pro's and cons... but I believe Linux is more than worth it.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 04:12 PM
Both have their pro's and cons... but I believe Linux is more than worth it.

More than worth what? The time you spent DL'ing, installing, and configuring it? There's no cost involved other than time. If you are saying it's worth the time spent, that's going to be individual preference. For me, no. My time is worth more than that. Linux requires too much manual tweaking when in the end, I just want my computer to let me do what I want to do.

legacy-yewnuhtee
03-12-2004, 04:15 PM
When you think about it, Linux and other free operating system platforms really are worth it. Since you get it for free, who's to say it's going to be the most user-friendly jumble of coding you've ever seen? However, in comparison to how quick people become accustomed to Windows, it's a close call IMO.

legacy-DarkHydra
03-12-2004, 04:17 PM
Yes, it's worth the time. I have fun learning Linux, tweaking it to suit my needs, etc.

Linux seems to be quite easy on you if you configure it the "normal" way. When you want to change something deeper you'll have to learn something more. Windows won't even allow you that, or you'll have to use things like TweakUI... Although those are options are so basic that they should be there anyway.

Yehnuwtee:

Yeah, some aspects of Linux aren't more complex, just different (and often more logical). Having no drive letters seems like a difficult oddity to Windows users, while it's in reality not more difficult, just different. Having to spend 30 minutes trying to get Flash to work on Firefox, on the other hand, is a difficulty.

If you'd learn Linux from the beginning instead of Windows, the learning curve of "the computer" would only be slightly steeper, while you'd be able to do quite a lot more.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 04:20 PM
Let me ask you something... How many top professional companies do you know that give rats a$$ about Netcraft?

Most of the ones I've had dealings with do care about Netcraft (at least their IT staff does). Uptimes tend to be a point-of-pride among IT staffers. Surprised that your group seems to be unaffected by this peculiar malady.

*grin*

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by ZaMoose
1) Make sure there's a space between "LABEL=/" and "hdd=ide-scsi".

2) After the hdd=ide-scsi put "apm=off" So your line would be:


kernel /vmlinuz - 2.4.20-8 ro boot=LABEL=/ hdd=ide-scsi apm=off


You can pass additional parameters, as needed, by appending them to the end of the line.

Let us know if that works for you.

DUDE! KICK ASS!! It worked!

Something as simple as that. God.
Well I breathed a sigh of relief when I seen the Red Hat text and it started loading all the stuff.

but I got ONE MORE TINY PROBLEM!
When it gets finished loading everything in. The screen pops up for me to login... looks like

(numbers are * for security reasons )
***cpe*** login:
password:

Problem is, is that I dont remember if i even had a login, like a name. But I do remember my admin pass I put in. I cant get past that screen now! argg* Any ideas?

legacy-yewnuhtee
03-12-2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by DarkHydra
Yehnuwtee:

Yeah, some aspects of Linux aren't more complex, just different (and often more logical). Having no drive letters seems like a difficult oddity to Windows users, while it's in reality not more difficult, just different. Having to spend 30 minutes trying to get Flash to work on Firefox, on the other hand, is a difficulty.

If you'd learn Linux from the beginning instead of Windows, the learning curve of "the computer" would only be slightly steeper, while you'd be able to do quite a lot more.

Some are more complex, some aren't. It just depends on how far into it you have to dig to get what you want or need. BTW, Flash installs just fine on Firefox 0.8. :)

I want to learn something of Linux, I have SuSE 9.0 installed, but it's only 989mb of space for it (couldn't even get a default installation) because XP was greedy with it being NTFS and it's resizing options. :sour: Can't even install Gaim because of so many dependencies I don't have. Plus YaST2 or whatever it was doesn't have the option of auto-downloading them. Not sure what other package manager I could use that could auto-download and install dependencies. :(

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 04:34 PM
For gaming (UT2K4, Americas Army, Enemy Territory) what's the best Linux Distro?

legacy-DarkHydra
03-12-2004, 04:35 PM
Flash is refusing to install here :p

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 04:39 PM
XxX:
Your "admin" account is "root", which is the default on all *NIX systems. Type in "root" and your root password and then do a RedHat Menu->System Settings->Users & Groups and then add an account for yourself.

Airjrdn:
I'd recommend Fedora/RedHat, as it's one of the most widely used and rpms are easiest to come by these days.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 04:45 PM
Does the current version use 2.6? If not, then wait or not?

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 04:53 PM
2.6 is in the early stages of deployment at this point. While it will buy you some performance gains (and native ALSA sound libraries), you might be better off sticking with a 2.4-series kernel.

Fedora Core 1 is 2.4-based. The upcoming Fedora Core 2 will ship with 2.6.3, complete with the NSA's SELinux patches, which are wicked cool security measures, but a bit difficult to put into practice. You'd better be comfortable with vi if you're going to venture into SELinux-land.

*chuckle*

legacy-_Ass_Hamster_
03-12-2004, 04:55 PM
If you do all that, spend the time to learn to configure Linux and build a quality system, before you know it, *presto* you have something you don't have now: perspective.

And, you can add it to the list of things you can do well. It might help you to make real money, to travel to interesting places, maybe even meet a girl.

It's worth it, for many more reasons that just building a quality computing platform. Though, that's a worthwhile place to start.

Just the opinion of an old guy who made more than a million in his work life so far.

Logy
03-12-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by DarkHydra
Flash is refusing to install here :p

tar xzf install_flash_player_6_linux.tar.gz

cd install_flash_player_6_linux/

cp flashplayer.xpt libflashplayer.so ~/.phoenix/plugins/

TAR DARRR!

You can also copy flashplayer.xpt and libflashplayer.so to ~/.mozilla/plugins (if you have Mozilla installed) and Firefox will just use those instead.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by ZaMoose
XxX:
Your "admin" account is "root", which is the default on all *NIX systems. Type in "root" and your root password and then do a RedHat Menu->System Settings->Users & Groups and then add an account for yourself.

Airjrdn:
I'd recommend Fedora/RedHat, as it's one of the most widely used and rpms are easiest to come by these days.

I did that actually b4 i read this post. and it worked only to give me another weird looking prompt simliar to

02mbe3b0@&#>

(thats not what it actually was, i was just guessing. but it did have the # and something else in there. lemme boot back and see)

legacy-DarkHydra
03-12-2004, 05:10 PM
Logy:

I did that. The problem is, flash still won't work ;) Thanks though.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 05:10 PM
ok the prompt is

[root@*18cpe0*9 root]#

what do I do now?

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 05:12 PM
XxX:
Sounds like you booted into text mode.

Good. When you're in as root, do a "useradd <username>". This will add a user. Then do "passwd <username>" to set the password. You should then be able to log in as <username>.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by ZaMoose
2.6 is in the early stages of deployment at this point. While it will buy you some performance gains (and native ALSA sound libraries), you might be better off sticking with a 2.4-series kernel.

Fedora Core 1 is 2.4-based. The upcoming Fedora Core 2 will ship with 2.6.3, complete with the NSA's SELinux patches, which are wicked cool security measures, but a bit difficult to put into practice. You'd better be comfortable with vi if you're going to venture into SELinux-land.

*chuckle*

rofl *sigh*


tar xzf install_flash_player_6_linux.tar.gz

cd install_flash_player_6_linux/

cp flashplayer.xpt libflashplayer.so ~/.phoenix/plugins/

Here we go


If you do all that, spend the time to learn to configure Linux and build a quality system, before you know it, *presto* you have something you don't have now: perspective.

And, you can add it to the list of things you can do well. It might help you to make real money, to travel to interesting places, maybe even meet a girl.

It's worth it, for many more reasons that just building a quality computing platform. Though, that's a worthwhile place to start.

Just the opinion of an old guy who made more than a million in his work life so far.

If I decide to embark on it this weekend, I'll just partition off some space and dual boot to it. I could run it under VMWare, but that wouldn't be giving it a fair shake

As for meeting a girl, I'm a little past that stage. Check this out (http://www.themintonfamily.com/)

Logy
03-12-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by DarkHydra
Logy:

I did that. The problem is, flash still won't work ;) Thanks though.

Strange. Which distro are you using?

Back when most distros went from gcc 2.95 to gcc 3, it broke compatibility with older C++ libraries. I had this problem with flash, but Macromedia corrected it with the most recent version.

At least, I've been using Flash for quite some time with no problems.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 05:21 PM
Some random thing I found while browsing...

"Don't type win, it won't work. The first time I installed Linux it took me four hours to figure out how to start X, and I'm about to save you that trouble.

[root]# startx

That's it. That's how we get into our GUI, the X Window System."

haha
I think thats my problem. But Ill add myself as a regular user while Im at it.

legacy-_Ass_Hamster_
03-12-2004, 05:22 PM
Nice website!

Sorry, I assumed that I was addressing a college age person. That will teach me to make assumptions.

I would heartily recommend Mandrake, as well. I used to be a die-hard Red Hat supporter, having used it from 4.2 through 9. But, Mandrake is more like teh NEXTSTEP of linux distros. It usually works very well rightout of the chute, and comes with loads of great apps. It got my PCMCIA WiFi card with PCI adapter when no other distro would.

Downside for me is that you can't upgade it to Ximian GNOME. Red Hat and Ximian were a nice, nice platform.

Best of luck. Post results, have fun with it.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 05:25 PM
Thanks (website)

Since around 7.x, I've preferred Mandrake, but I've not tried Fedora. I just VNC'd home and kicked off the DL. Are all 3 disks generally required?

Logy
03-12-2004, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
haha
I think thats my problem. But Ill add myself as a regular user while Im at it.

I don't know if this has been covered in this thread yet, but it is definitely important to use a regular user for all your normal activity, and only login as root when you need to make system changes or install software.

Just so you know.

legacy-_Ass_Hamster_
03-12-2004, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
Thanks (website)

Since around 7.x, I've preferred Mandrake, but I've not tried Fedora. I just VNC'd home and kicked off the DL. Are all 3 disks generally required?

If you are referring to Mandrake, I believe that only the first two CDs are required for a standard build. The third is usually localization and all the wacky international packages. If you need Thai, Japanese, Swahili or Turkish locales, you might use Disk 3. I just use the first two, and "cancel" through the third disc prompt.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 05:30 PM
No, asking about Fedora (per the suggestion above) I've got the first couple DL'ing now. Just didn't know if I'd need the 3rd.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 05:31 PM
Airjrdn:
Yup, in most desktop installs, all three CDs are needed.

Is there a reason you were specifically looking for 2.6? For most people, 2.4 should do just fine.

XxX:
Definitely only use your regular account on a day-to-day basis. Makes it harder to screw up and type "rm -rf /*" (DON'T EVER DO THAT! IT WILL DELETE EVERYTHING ON YOUR HARD DRIVE!)

For those having problems with Flash, have you installed compat-libstdc++ and compat-gcc? At least on RH systems, that generally gets around glibc incompatibilities.

legacy-_Ass_Hamster_
03-12-2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
Some random thing I found while browsing...

"Don't type win, it won't work. The first time I installed Linux it took me four hours to figure out how to start X, and I'm about to save you that trouble.

[root]# startx


It will work as 'win' if you make an alias or symbolic link to startx:

`sudo ln -s /usr/local/bin/win `which startx``

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 05:35 PM
I've got my trusty sidekick GetRight pulling from 6 sites at once (3 for each file) and maxing my home connection out (around 350KB/sec). :)

Gotta love Getright.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 05:36 PM
sigh* ****inA
i typed startx at the root prompt and got an error . like a whole page of crap. it didnt boot into any gui or linux windows or nothing.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 05:42 PM
Couple of partition questions while the experts are reading.

I assume I'm going to need two partitions, one for the OS, one for swap correct?

In the box in question, I'm running one 120G drive split (currently) into two partitions; one for OS, one for data.

I'll probably split the current OS partition (NTFS) up using partition magic or something comparable. How much should I allocate for OS and for swap? I'm running 1G of physical memory. I do plan on installing Americas Army and UT2K4 (to test performance under Win & Linux).

Also, with regards to the OS partition, what filesystem should I use? Aren't there a couple of them that Linux typically uses (ext2 & ext3 or something like that)?

I guess a 3rd note is, I do have an ATI card (9700 Pro). Should I even bother since it's not an Nvidia card?

legacy-Xipher
03-12-2004, 05:46 PM
you need at least one for actuall data, and you can use a swap partion, that is recomended, and normaly about twice the size of your ram on old machines, but on newer ones, like yours, you could get by easy with 200-500MB, that how big mine is atleast, and I barely touch it.
And there are 2 big FileSystems in use atm, one is EXT3, the other is reiserfs.
I personaly use EXT3, but reiserfs has worked well too. I would suggest going with the default though.
And on the ATI card part, no clue havent tried it, but your not gonna need much space to use linux with, so you could jut use like 5-7GB, and just do some testing to see if it works for you, IIRC ATI recently updated there drivers.

Logy
03-12-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
sigh* ****inA
i typed startx at the root prompt and got an error . like a whole page of crap. it didnt boot into any gui or linux windows or nothing.

The X Windows system must be mis-configured. What's your video card?

legacy-CavernTan
03-12-2004, 05:49 PM
I'm going to install Mandrake 10.0 Community tonight. Dual-Boot sweetness!

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Logy
The X Windows system must be mis-configured. What's your video card?

Vistiontek Geforce 4 ti4600 128mb gpu

I installed RedHat 9 as a desktop which Im sure X windows was in the installed packages.

Logy
03-12-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
I assume I'm going to need two partitions, one for the OS, one for swap correct?

Yes. I also made a separate partition for my /home directory (where all the user files are stored) so if I ever want to upgrade or re-format the OS, I don't have to touch my user data.



Also, with regards to the OS partition, what filesystem should I use? Aren't there a couple of them that Linux typically uses (ext2 & ext3 or something like that)?

ext or reiserFS are both good. I use reiserFS. Some distros don't support it by default, though.


I guess a 3rd note is, I do have an ATI card (9700 Pro). Should I even bother since it's not an Nvidia card?

You can bother, but you probably won't be thrilled with the results. ATI's Linux drivers have been lagging behind their Windows counterparts for a long time now. By all reports, they are now mostly visually correct, but their performance is relatively crappy. Their updates have been few and far between.

Nvidia's Linux drivers have been stable and as good as their Windows drivers for years now.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 05:57 PM
Airjrdn:
If you're going to install UT2k4, you'll need more than 5-7 GB to install on. *grin*

200-500MB swap should indeed do you just fine. Fast machines with lots o' RAM shouldn't be hitting disk much anyways.

If you're not looking to keep it long term, I'd just go with two partitions: / and swap. If you plan on keeping it longer, do at least 3: /, swap and /home. Keeping /home in a separate partition means you don't have to worry about backing up your personal data when you go to upgrade the system.

As to your ATI card, Radeon 9200's and lower are supported out of the box. The higher end ones (one of which you obviously have) can be run on ATI's binary drivers, available here (http://www.ati.com/support/drivers/linux/radeon-linux.html?type=linux&prodType=graphic&prod=productsLINUXdriver&submit.x=7&submit.y=4&submit=GO%21).

If you have any more difficulties, I'll be trolling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hwatching this forum tonight to see if I can offer any assistance.

Logy
03-12-2004, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
Vistiontek Geforce 4 ti4600 128mb gpu

I installed RedHat 9 as a desktop which Im sure X windows was in the installed packages.

Okay, I'm pretty sure that card should have been detected properly.

RedHat probably has some utility for configuring Xwindows, but I don't know what it is anymore.

Here's what you can do, though, to help me figure out the problem.

type:

grep EE /var/log/XFree86.0.log > xerrors.txt



This will search through the X Windows log file and copy the errors to a file called "xerrors.txt"

If you can find a way to post that here (like copy it to a windows partition, and post it from Windows) I can help find the problem.

I understand this may seem like a huge pain in the ass, and I can understand why this would turn you off to Linux, but it's up to you to decide if it's worth it.

I might have been pissed if I encountered this kind of problem when I started out, but strangely, I've never had a problem on a standard install from any distro I've used, especially RedHat.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 06:15 PM
XxX:
Do this:

As root, type:

less /etc/X11/XF86config

Look for a section that starts with:

Section "Device"

What does it say next to Driver ?

If it's a GeForce, RH9 should have picked it up and used the "nv" driver, so your line should be:

Driver "nv"

Also, make sure if you have a line that starts with VideoRam in that section, that it's commented out (Put a # before the line to comment it out).

We'll get to editing the file once you post your results.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 06:29 PM
Logy:
I did that copy thing but since I cant see my hard drive in windows i cant read the file

zamoose:
I did that and nothing really happened. Just couldnt find the file.

Anywho. The error I got when typing startx was
Fatal Server Error:
No screens found

That was just in the midst of the text on my screen. Only thing that looked important.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 06:31 PM
If you have any more difficulties,

I appreciate it. If you checked out my website (linked earlier) you'll notice that I have two little ones (23mo & 7mo) so I won't have time to dive into this until later, but we'll see.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 06:33 PM
XxX:
Next step:

Type

rpm -qa | grep -i xfree

Post the results here. I get the sneaking suspicion that maybe X wasn't installed correctly.

Also, type:

redhat-config-xfree86

and let me know what the output is.

(All of this as root, of course).

Thanks.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 07:14 PM
First: (you put -ixfree instead of -i xfree) :)

rpm -qa | grep -i xfree

That line returned this: (Ill use *'s to replace repetative stuff)

XFree86-mesa-libGL-4.3.0-2
* -xfs- -4.3.0-2
* -mesa-libGLU-4.3.0-2
* -libs-data -4.3.0-2
* -font-utils -4.3.0-2
* -truetype-fonts-4.3.0-2
* -100dpi-fonts-4.3.0-2
* -base-fonts-4.3.0-2
* -xauth-4.3.0-2
XFree86-4.3.0-2
* -tools-4.3.0-2
* -xdm-4.3.0-2
* -libs-4.3.0-2
* -75dpi-fonts-4.3.0-2
* -twm-4.3.0-2
redhat-config-xfree86-0.7.3-2

Next:

redhat-config-xfree86

That returned-

ddcpobe returned bogus values
Id: None
Name:None
HorizSync:None
VertSync:None

BUT It did go into a graphical gui that let me setup some values.
So I set my resolution, video card name was already set right. And I changed colors to millions and set my montior to a DellP991. And hit OK. Then it took me back to the root# prompt. Where I had hoped I could type startx. So I did and it gave me the same error.Fatal Server Error: No Screens Found.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 07:25 PM
Take another look at /etc/X11/XF86config. It should exist now. Tell me what it says in the Device section.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 07:27 PM
Taking off for home. I'll be there in ~45 minutes and will be checking this thread then.

legacy-gogobongopop
03-12-2004, 07:34 PM
Well if anybody remembers why this thread was made in the first place I have finally got a Nvidia graphics card working with 3D support!!

woo hoo for me, its 00.30 but I did it.

Unfortunately its my old MX440 :( But at the moment its better than nothing. I tired the FX5600 256mb that came with the machine and nothing. I also tried my FX5600 128mb from my Windows machine and nothing, so Iam guessing Suse doesnt like the FX5600 at all!

Anyways, I am a happy bunny now. Off to install Quake 3 and Teh Demo with very low settings but still, n'mind.

At least I can play Tux Racer all day!

Kudos for Linux!

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 08:01 PM
Youll never belive it but after two days and tons of note taking and reading and all that mess Im making this post in my mozilla browser in Red Hat 9!!! Thanks guys. Im doing an auto update right now.

Im sure there are many things I have yet to overcome. And will be using this thread most likely to keep in touch and ask more questions.

For starters. I still have to manually edit my kernel in grub to turn apm=off in order to boot correctly. Plus I am very interested in how Mod got his 3D to work.

So far my only problem is that my screen is just a tiny bit blurry. But after I install (find out how to) my linux nvidia drivers, everything should brighten and clear up.

So thanks tons yall. Lets see how this goes. I still need to recover my lost space on my seagate 160gig hard drive that I used trying to install RH9 on. I need a good partition program to do that. It was about 75gigs I cant access right now. But im just glad I got this up and running on my Wd 40gig HD all by its lonesome.

Ill be back.
thanks again.

Logy
03-12-2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
Ill be back.
thanks again.

Sweet. Good luck with the other stuff.

Get Nvidia's drivers from their site, and make sure you read the instructions. It's pretty easy to install, you just need to make one change to your XF86Config file to make it work.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 08:20 PM
Got the ISO's DL'd and have one left to burn. I'm wondering though, if it's going to be worth the effort if the ATI drivers aren't up to par. I've got a GF3, but it's in my wife's machine, so it's out of reach.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
Got the ISO's DL'd and have one left to burn. I'm wondering though, if it's going to be worth the effort if the ATI drivers aren't up to par. I've got a GF3, but it's in my wife's machine, so it's out of reach.

swap the cards out while shes sleeping
:confused:

Well somehow my internet connection cut off after I tried doing autoupdate, Im sure it wasnt due to my isp, just an internet thing on my pc. Its back up so Im gonna try again.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 08:32 PM
I think I'll stick w/the ATI. ;)

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 08:38 PM
Airjrdn:
You may end up being pleasantly surprised. *grin*

XxX:
Get the nVidia driver (http://www.nvidia.com/object/linux_display_ia32_1.0-5336.html) and make sure you read the README (ftp://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86/1.0-5336/README).

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 08:42 PM
XxX:
Get the nVidia driver (http://www.nvidia.com/object/linux_display_ia32_1.0-5336.html) and make sure you read the README (ftp://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86/1.0-5336/README). [/B][/QUOTE]

Just did that. :weird:

I wish I spoke fluently in linux language. Cause its like reading aramaic!@

So First I exit out of "X" go to the command line CD to the dir where the package is at. Type
sh Nvidia-Linux-x86-1.0-5336-pkg1.run
?
must learn how to CD in linux in the right command prompt huh? hehe

I think I can do it but id like to configure something so I dont have to manually type apm=off everytime I boot into X.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 08:52 PM
Edit /etc/grub.conf to resemble the lines you entered to get it to boot.

legacy-titus7
03-12-2004, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
Let me ask you something... How many top professional companies do you know that give rats a$$ about Netcraft? You've hit it multiple times in this thread, but it's useless. We've got Windows servers (yes there are Windows servers) here that maintain average uptimes much greater than 130 days.
Do we submit that to Netcraft? No.
Will we? No.
Is there any reason to? No.
Is there any benefit for us to? No.

Starting to get the picture? Hopefully.

Just curious, what do you do for a living?

You don't submit stats to netcraft. They actively probe machines on the Internet to determine the operating system, uptime, and version of http server running. They have records for millions of machines on the Internet. And, they have been doing this for 5+ years. The techniques they use are generally reliable. If your company has a publicly accessible web server I bet they have stats for your servers. Furthermore, I bet they accurately reflect the OS and uptimes for those machines.

Explain to me why there isn't a single Microsoft box in the list of the 50 longest running servers on the Internet (http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html).

I checked the stats for www.microsoft.com. The site is running Windows 2003/IIS 6.0 (no surprise there). The average uptime for those machines is 48.33 days. (http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.microsoft.com)

And, then I checked www.kernel.org (the official site of the Linux kernel). The site is running Red Hat Linux/Apache 2.0.40. The average uptime is 284.33 days. (http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.kernel.org)

Why cant Microsoft (you would agree that they have quite a bit of Windows expertise?) keep the servers for their website running longer than 1 1/2 months? The site is running the latest versions of their operating system and IIS.

As far as what I do for a living goes ... I own a small IT services company in the Washington DC area.

-titus

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Tom_Blaze
They stole their OS from Steve Jobs over at Apple and then they cry about their source code...screw them.

Actually, they stole it from IBM during the development of OS/2.

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Zyngath
I really dont see where you can go wrong there. And even if you go wrong somewhere the wizard will let you know about your mistake and give you a chance to correct it.

And it still leaves an entry in the add/remove programs manager. Click remove there and it says something like "uninstaller.exe not found!" Tell me how to get rid of that without hacking the registry.

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
grub> boot linux apm=off

Error 8: Kernel must be loaded before booting

Ok that didnt work. ANd I dont know how to load the kernel.

Try this:
grub> kernel (hd0,0)/boot/vmlinuz
That's if your /boot partition or directory is on the first partition of the primary master hard disk.

lilo: kernel=/boot/vmlinuz root=/dev/hda1

I'm not certain about that LILO command, but it should be close. Your kernel might not be called 'vmlinuz,' either. I strongly suggest typing "help" to double check the syntax on those commands.


Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
root (hdb1,0)
Kernel /vmlinuz - 2.4.20-8 ro root=LABEL=/hdd=ide-scsi
initrd / initrd - 2.4.20-8.img


"root" should be set to your "/" partition. Example:
root=/dev/hda1

IDE-SCSI is usually for CD burners. If your CD-ROM is the secondary slave IDE device, it should be:
hdd=ide-scsi (Note that we don't need the /dev/ in front for this)

Judging by the info in your post, I'll attempt to give you a correct GRUB configuration:
root (hd1,0)
Kernel /vmlinuz - 2.4.20-8 ro root=/dev/hdb2 hdd=ide-scsi
initrd /initrd-2.4.20-8.img

This is assuming that your root partition is different than your boot partition. on the secondary master hard disk.


Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
I tried editing root (hdb1,0) to read root (hdb2,0) root (hda1,0) root (hdb1,1) root (hdb1,2) etc etc.

GRUB doesn't use the letter notation like LILO. It uses numbers instead, and it starts at 0. Example:
(hd0,0) -- First partition on primary master
(hd1,1) -- Second partition on primary slave
(hd2,2) -- Third partition on secondary master
(hd3,3) -- Four partition on the secondary slave

LILO uses letters and stuff:
/dev/hda1 -- First partition on primary master
/dev/hdb2 -- Second partition on primary slave
/dev/hdc3 -- Third partition on secondary master
/dev/hdd4 -- Four partition on the secondary slave

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
Let me ask you something... How many top professional companies do you know that give rats a$$ about Netcraft?

Anyone looking to get web server statistics goes to Netcraft.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-12-2004, 09:18 PM
Deathpenguin:
Don't go confusing the poor lad. He's got it booting. The only thing he needs to do is append "apm=off" to his "kernel" lines.

The root=LABEL=/ is just fine, syntax-wise.

XxX:
Don't mess with it if it's working.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 09:21 PM
pwnt by the death penguin

well i got the nvidia drivers installed, i just hope its working. how do i set the contrast of my fonts and web pages and such cause its a little blurry?

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
DUDE! KICK ASS!! It worked!

Glad you got it working. Disregard my last post, I'll leave it up for reference.

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
For gaming (UT2K4, Americas Army, Enemy Territory) what's the best Linux Distro?

Any of them will do, as the Linux kernel, GNU tools, and XFree86 are available as source code and can be compiled for any distro.

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by ZaMoose
Deathpenguin:
Don't go confusing the poor lad. He's got it booting. The only thing he needs to do is append "apm=off" to his "kernel" lines.

The root=LABEL=/ is just fine, syntax-wise.

XxX:
Don't mess with it if it's working.

Hehe, sorry. I didn't get that far in the thread before posting. Perhaps I should start at the end and work my back next time?

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 09:49 PM
lol, maybe

im downloading the 2k4 linux demo right now.
maybe i can figure out how to install it. :sour:

oh i got B1tchX too for an irc client cause im a clanner as well

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
lol, maybe

im downloading the 2k4 linux demo right now.
maybe i can figure out how to install it. :sour:

oh i got B1tchX too for an irc client cause im a clanner as well

*****X is a command-line IRC client, isn't it? You might want to try something more graphical like xchat or kvirc.

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
ok the prompt is

[root@*18cpe0*9 root]#

what do I do now?

Looks like your terminal doesn't support color text or something.

If you want to get booted straight into the GUI, try this:
chkconfig -add gdm

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by modaceface
Unfortunately its my old MX440 :( But at the moment its better than nothing. I tired the FX5600 256mb that came with the machine and nothing. I also tried my FX5600 128mb from my Windows machine and nothing, so Iam guessing Suse doesnt like the FX5600 at all!

Interesting, I've run SuSE 9 Pro with a GeForce FX 5600 at work just fine.

Hmm...

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 10:30 PM
Ok, I'm posting this from Fedora. I've got a couple of things I'd like to change though.

When I go to change resolutions, 1024x768 is the highest available. I'm used to running 1600x1200 @ 75hz. I'm running an ATI Radeon 9700 Pro and a 21" Nokia 445Pro monitor.

Also, sound...I'm getting a constant terrible screeching sound. Sound card is a Creative Labs Audigy 2 ZS.

Mousewheel works as far as scrolling, but clicking it doesn't allow me to scroll down smoothly. My mouse is a Logitech MX500.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 10:33 PM
LOL Check this out. What was that about that server uptime? ;)


IMPORTANT MESSAGE FOLLOWS:
Red Hat Network will be offline for scheduled maintenance
from 8:00PM EST (20:00 GMT-5) on Friday, March 12th.
The servers will be back online by no later than
8:00PM EST (20:00 GMT-5) on Sunday, March 14th.

We apologize for any inconvenience this outage may cause.

Thank you for using Red Hat Network.

--the RHN team

legacy-Xipher
03-12-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn

Mousewheel works as far as scrolling, but clicking it doesn't allow me to scroll down smoothly. My mouse is a Logitech MX500.
Thats a application feature that was added by Microsoft. In most Window Managers and Desktop Environments on most *nix systems it will give you another menu, or in applications act as a paste button, for any text that is or has recently been selected. so you dont have to rightclick copy, rightclick paste, just select, goto the window you want to paste in, and paste.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 10:38 PM
Went to This link (http://www.gamespy.com/interviews/march04/cliffyb/) and have to gray boxes with blue X's. I think it might be flash something or other. Can't Mozilla just install what it needs automatically?

When I click on the box, it just says it needs a plug, but offers no assistance in the way of how to get or install it.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by Xipher
Thats a application feature that was added by Microsoft. In most Window Managers and Desktop Environments on most *nix systems it will give you another menu, or in applications act as a paste button, for any text that is or has recently been selected. so you dont have to rightclick copy, rightclick paste, just select, goto the window you want to paste in, and paste.

I've used at least one live Linux CD that did what I'm used to, evidently it's not too complicated in Linux. Given the choice, I'll keep the functionality I'm used to. It's generally faster for me to hit CTRL-C & CTRL-V anyway.

legacy-Xipher
03-12-2004, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
LOL Check this out. What was that about that server uptime? ;)
Thats called schedualed downtime, its normal.
its the crashes that kill windows offten times, and the fact if you patch, or upgrade anything it forces a reboot. more then likely what Red Hat is doing might not require the servers to halt or reboot, only take down some services do some work, and start them back up. Up time is how long the physical box itself has been running for, and how netcraft checks that, it doesnt reset when the daemon (or service as its called in win) restarts, but is checked via other means, such as HTTP headers and/or TCP packet data, such as timestamps and the like.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Xipher
Thats called schedualed downtime, its normal.
its the crashes that kill windows offten times, and the fact if you patch, or upgrade anything it forces a reboot. more then likely what Red Hat is doing might not require the servers to halt or reboot, only take down some services do some work, and start them back up. Up time is how long the physical box itself has been running for, and how netcraft checks that, it doesnt reset when the daemon (or service as its called in win) restarts, but is checked via other means, such as HTTP headers and/or TCP packet data, such as timestamps and the like.

Well shoot, that's easy. From now on, anytime I have to reboot a box, I'll just announce it ahead of time. ;)

And d@mn...two days for maintenance? I'd rather they just rebooted every 45 days or so. :D

legacy-Xipher
03-12-2004, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
Went to This link (http://www.gamespy.com/interviews/march04/cliffyb/) and have to gray boxes with blue X's. I think it might be flash something or other. Can't Mozilla just install what it needs automatically?

When I click on the box, it just says it needs a plug, but offers no assistance in the way of how to get or install it.
nope, flash is avalible though, you can goto the website and download it, and run the installer.

and about ctrl-c ctrl-v, you might find that doesnt work in all applications, such as term, since ctrl-c sends the kill signal to the currently running proccess, this is were that middle click comes in handy. There are some Apps in linux that do suport this though, actually Its not linux, but the desktop environment your running, I think KDE's Konqueror might suppor that.

legacy-Xipher
03-12-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
Well shoot, that's easy. From now on, anytime I have to reboot a box, I'll just announce it ahead of time. ;)

And d@mn...two days for maintenance? I'd rather they just rebooted every 45 days or so. :D
If you know ahead of time. as windows tends to pull that date it likes to restart out of a hat right before it goes down, and doesnt pop up a message saying, "put out a memo im going down in 10 seconds"

also like i said, those machines may be unaccessable, but that doesnt mean they are being rebooted.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-12-2004, 10:50 PM
also like i said, those machines may be unaccessable, but that doesnt mean they are being rebooted.

From where I sit, what's the difference?

I still have 80 updates I can't apply. What I think is wierd is that I can't get them from another location. You'd think they'd have mirrors setup so I could just choose another one from a drop down box or something.

legacy-Xipher
03-12-2004, 10:58 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the community doesn't have a few, just cause Red Hat says theres are down for mantanince, doesn't mean the community takes theres down.

you might try and search for community mirrors.

That is unless your using red hats special Distro like Advanced server.

also, I personally am not a big fan of Red Hat. if my Avatar doesn't tell you something, try and go to Slackware (http://www.slackware.com) and use a distro that doesn't try and make every thing easy, yet freaking complicated as heck. Slackware keeps it simple, and most people find it intimidating having to actually do some work instead of relying on others to do the work for them.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-12-2004, 11:02 PM
ive been to a few ftp sites that had an updates folder with TONS of updates and other programs.

btw, does anyone know right off hand how to install the 2k4 demo in linux and how can i verify that my new nvidia drivers are installed? thanks a bunch.

legacy-Xipher
03-12-2004, 11:08 PM
off the website, download the linux demo file, should end in .run.
then, su into root, and do a sh <demo file> replacing <demo file> with the demo's name. this will start the demo installer, the rest should go from there. if you using gnome or kde, it will install menu entries. you might need to logout and log back in for the gnome ones to take effect, but not sure. After that, find the demo in the menu, if its not there, start a terminal session, and type in "ut2004demo" without quotes, and press enter. it should run.

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-12-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
Well shoot, that's easy. From now on, anytime I have to reboot a box, I'll just announce it ahead of time. ;)

And d@mn...two days for maintenance? I'd rather they just rebooted every 45 days or so. :D

Whoever said they were rebooting?

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-13-2004, 12:50 AM
sigh
if it isnt one thing its another

i downloaded and installed the 2k4 demo
when i go to the run command and type ut2004demo the 2k4 boot screen comes up then it stalls for a few seconds and shuts down. doesnt even boot into the game. i cant find a INI file like in windows 2k4 to edit which renderer it will use and change my settings.

another problem I have now is when i boot into X with my root/admin user, everything runs fine. but if I boot into it with my regular user it get a ton of crash dialogues about gnome. sometimes i can still boot in and be able to do stuff, sometimes it doesnt even load anything up just get a blank screen...

legacy-ZaMoose
03-13-2004, 01:05 AM
Shhesh, fellas, I let you go for a few hours and it devolves into a flamewar? And someone mentioned Slackware? *shudder*

Just kidding.

Airjrdn:
Your updating woes are just a couple of steps away from being solved.

Add these lines to your /etc/yum.conf:

[core]
name=Fedora Linux $releasever - $basearch - core
baseurl=http://ayo.freshrpms.net/fedora/linux/$releasever/$basearch/core

[updates]
name=Fedora Linux $releasever - $basearch - updates
baseurl=http://ayo.freshrpms.net/fedora/linux/$releasever/$basearch/updates

[freshrpms]
name=Fedora Linux $releasever - $basearch - freshrpms
baseurl=http://ayo.freshrpms.net/fedora/linux/$releasever/$basearch/freshrpms

[atrpms-stable]
name=ATRPMs Packages for Fedora $releasever - $basearch
baseurl=http://apt.physik.fu-berlin.de/fedora/1/en/i386/at-stable

[dag]
name=Dag Wieers Packages for Fedora $releasever - $basearch
baseurl=http://apt.sw.be/redhat/fc1/en/i386/dag

[newrpms]
name=Fedora Core 1 NewRPMS.sunsite.dk
baseurl=http://newrpms.sunsite.dk/apt/redhat/en/i386/fc1

[dries]
name=Extra Fedora rpms dries - $releasever - $basearch
baseurl=http://dries.studentenweb.org/yum/fedora/linux/$releasever/$basearch/dries

[livna-stable]
name=Fedora Compatible Packages (stable)
baseurl=http://rpm.livna.org/fedora/$releasever/$basearch/yum/stable


Then, save it and run 'yum check-upgrade' and see how many upgrades it shows you.

Oh, if you have any of the official RedHat core or updates in your yum.conf, comment them out before running yum. The Freshrpms feed will take care of your updates.

To solve your Java issue:

Run 'yum install mozilla-j2re'. That'll install the Java plugin.

As for Flash, download the Fedora RPM from here:
here (http://sluglug.ucsc.edu/macromedia/site_ucsc.html)

and then run "rpm -Uvh flash-plugin*.rpm" in the directory where you saved it to. Accept the license agreement and away you go!

legacy-ZaMoose
03-13-2004, 01:09 AM
XxX:
I think preferences are stored in your home directory in something like a .ut2004 directory.

Do an `ls -al ~` and see if anything like that shows up.

Now, are you running the demo as root, or as a normal user? Also, did you edit your XF86config to be using 'nvidia' instead of 'nv' as your Driver after you installed the nVidia drivers?

And if you could post some of the text of the GNOME error messages, maybe I could help diagnose your situation.

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-13-2004, 01:10 AM
man they need an official Linux user IRC channel to go to. It would be easier and more real time than this forum trolling. :(

legacy-ZaMoose
03-13-2004, 01:11 AM
Is there an official IRC channel? We could hop on there and I could be of more immediate assistance if you wanted...

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-13-2004, 01:11 AM
yea i edited the xf86 conf like the nv readme said. brb...

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-13-2004, 01:19 AM
grub.conf file

# grub.conf generated by anaconda
#
# Note that you do not have to rerun grub after making changes to this file
# NOTICE: You have a /boot partition. This means that
# all kernel and initrd paths are relative to /boot/, eg.
# root (hd1,0)
# kernel /vmlinuz-version ro root=/dev/hdb2
# initrd /initrd-version.img
#boot=/dev/hdb1
default=1
timeout=10
splashimage=(hd1,0)/grub/splash.xpm.gz
title Red Hat Linux (2.4.20-8)
root (hd1,0)
kernel /vmlinuz-2.4.20-8 ro root=LABEL=/ hdd=ide-scsi apm=off
initrd /initrd-2.4.20-8.img
title DOS
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
chainloader +1

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-13-2004, 01:22 AM
XF86Config

# XFree86 4 configuration created by redhat-config-xfree86

Section "ServerLayout"
Identifier "Default Layout"
Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0
InputDevice "Mouse0" "CorePointer"
InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard"
EndSection

Section "Files"

# RgbPath is the location of the RGB database. Note, this is the name of the
# file minus the extension (like ".txt" or ".db"). There is normally
# no need to change the default.
# Multiple FontPath entries are allowed (they are concatenated together)
# By default, Red Hat 6.0 and later now use a font server independent of
# the X server to render fonts.
RgbPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/rgb"
FontPath "unix/:7100"
EndSection

Section "Module"
Load "dbe"
Load "extmod"
Load "fbdevhw"
Load "glx"
Load "record"
Load "freetype"
Load "type1"
EndSection

Section "InputDevice"

# Specify which keyboard LEDs can be user-controlled (eg, with xset(1))
# Option "Xleds" "1 2 3"
# To disable the XKEYBOARD extension, uncomment XkbDisable.
# Option "XkbDisable"
# To customise the XKB settings to suit your keyboard, modify the
# lines below (which are the defaults). For example, for a non-U.S.
# keyboard, you will probably want to use:
# Option "XkbModel" "pc102"
# If you have a US Microsoft Natural keyboard, you can use:
# Option "XkbModel" "microsoft"
#
# Then to change the language, change the Layout setting.
# For example, a german layout can be obtained with:
# Option "XkbLayout" "de"
# or:
# Option "XkbLayout" "de"
# Option "XkbVariant" "nodeadkeys"
#
# If you'd like to switch the positions of your capslock and
# control keys, use:
# Option "XkbOptions" "ctrl:swapcaps"
# Or if you just want both to be control, use:
# Option "XkbOptions" "ctrl:nocaps"
#
Identifier "Keyboard0"
Driver "keyboard"
Option "XkbRules" "xfree86"
Option "XkbModel" "pc105"
Option "XkbLayout" "us"
EndSection

Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Mouse0"
Driver "mouse"
Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2"
Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5"
Option "Emulate3Buttons" "no"
EndSection

Section "InputDevice"

# If the normal CorePointer mouse is not a USB mouse then
# this input device can be used in AlwaysCore mode to let you
# also use USB mice at the same time.
Identifier "DevInputMice"
Driver "mouse"
Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2"
Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5"
Option "Emulate3Buttons" "no"
EndSection

Section "Monitor"
Identifier "Monitor0"
VendorName "Monitor Vendor"
ModelName "Dell P991"
DisplaySize 14 11
HorizSync 30.0 - 95.0
VertRefresh 50.0 - 160.0
Option "dpms"
EndSection

Section "Device"
Identifier "Videocard0"
Driver "Nvidia"
VendorName "Videocard vendor"
BoardName "NVIDIA GeForce 4 (generic)"
EndSection

Section "Screen"
Identifier "Screen0"
Device "Videocard0"
Monitor "Monitor0"
DefaultDepth 24
SubSection "Display"
Depth 16
Modes "800x600" "640x480"
EndSubSection
SubSection "Display"
Depth 24
Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480"
EndSubSection
EndSection

Section "DRI"
Group 0
Mode 0666
EndSection

legacy-ZaMoose
03-13-2004, 01:22 AM
Your grub.conf looks fine, but why'd you post it? I thought we had the kinks with that ironed out long ago...?

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-13-2004, 01:24 AM
Keep in mind I havent been able to update due to the server down for maintenance. I do have Fedora on disk. Maybe I can try to reinstall it. Unless their update site is tied in with Red Hats. Then Id be in the same boat im in now. But im getting kinda tired. And burnt out on troubleshooting. Trying to learn everything in a few days about Linux that took me 14 years to learn with Windows. sigh* go me!

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-13-2004, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by ZaMoose
Your grub.conf looks fine, but why'd you post it? I thought we had the kinks with that ironed out long ago...?

verification;)

legacy-ZaMoose
03-13-2004, 01:33 AM
Install apt (http://shrike.freshrpms.net/rpm.html?id=1213), then run 'apt-get update;apt-get -s upgrade' and see what upgrades are available. Run 'apt-get upgrade' to install all the upgrades.

Easy as pie!

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-13-2004, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by ZaMoose
Install apt (http://shrike.freshrpms.net/rpm.html?id=1213), then run 'apt-get update;apt-get -s upgrade' and see what upgrades are available. Run 'apt-get upgrade' to install all the upgrades.

Easy as pie!

[root@***cpe*** destruction]# sh apt-0.5.5cnc6-fr1.i386.rpm
apt-0.5.5cnc6-fr1.i386.rpm: apt-0.5.5cnc6-fr1.i386.rpm: cannot execute binary file
[root@***cpe*** destruction]#

i need a moment to clear my head. slightly tired. ill remember how to execute it soon enuf

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-13-2004, 02:21 AM
yay
doin it now.
hope it gets it goin right when i boot into normal user
and hope i can run 2k4 afterwards. :weird:

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-13-2004, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by XxX|Bossman
man they need an official Linux user IRC channel to go to. It would be easier and more real time than this forum trolling. :(

irc.freenode.net
#gentoo
That's where I usually am. I've never seen fewer than 750 people there. Definitely one of the best GNU/Linux resources on the net. Ask a question and you're bound to get an answer.

legacy-gogobongopop
03-13-2004, 06:14 AM
:bulb:

Its all going a bit bizarre. I've dont something to upset it and it doesnt like me anymore,

I can't get my mouse to work!!!

:bulb:

I have a USB MS mouse, and bog standard PS2 mouse and neither work now. The last thing I did was try and get the scroller wheel working in SaX with my USB MS mouse and nothing works!

How do I reset the mouse drivers to a default?

Whats the keyboard shortcut to open the start menu coz I need to get back into the control centre but I can't

:bulb:

Please help!

legacy-ZaMoose
03-13-2004, 08:48 AM
XxX:
In your XF86config, you have Driver "Nvidia". That's wrong. Most *NIX systems are VERY case sensitive. It MUST read Driver "nvidia" (note the lower-case n).

That could be part of your problem.

And RPMs aren't installed via a shell ('sh'), they're installed with the rpm tool. So, to install something you would run "rpm -ivh <packagename>." To update, it's "rpm -Uvh". Do an "rpm --help" for complete syntax.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-13-2004, 08:49 AM
I don't have any experience with SuSE/SaX unfortunately. But if you were running Fedora... *grin*

legacy-XxX|Bossman
03-13-2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by ZaMoose
XxX:
In your XF86config, you have Driver "Nvidia". That's wrong. Most *NIX systems are VERY case sensitive. It MUST read Driver "nvidia" (note the lower-case n).

Yea I finally figured that out. After i ran apt get and updated, i reinstalled the nvidia drivers, and edited the config again. Now I see a Nvidia splash screen when I load into my desktop. Plus I ran the 2k4 demo. Which it looked like total ass. 45-50fps and everything was real dark and weird looking.



And RPMs aren't installed via a shell ('sh'), they're installed with the rpm tool. So, to install something you would run "rpm -ivh <packagename>." To update, it's "rpm -Uvh". Do an "rpm --help" for complete syntax.

Figured that one out too.

Also if anyone needs a good guide on installing the Linux nvidia drivers and tweaking them go here ---> http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=31

legacy-Airjrdn
03-14-2004, 08:29 PM
I hadn't forgotten about this thread. Yesterday, my wife went out of town on an overnight trip to visit in-laws. In her absense I had both babies (two under two), so there was no time to computer or play UT2K4. :(

This afternoon when she arrived, I came down to a computer that wouldn't power up. I'm pretty certain it was my power supply, but since it's a non-standard case with a propietary power supply, I had to order one. I ordered Fedex 2-day, so it should be here by Wed at the latest (I hope).

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-14-2004, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Airjrdn
I hadn't forgotten about this thread. Yesterday, my wife went out of town on an overnight trip to visit in-laws. In her absense I had both babies (two under two), so there was no time to computer or play UT2K4. :(

This afternoon when she arrived, I came down to a computer that wouldn't power up. I'm pretty certain it was my power supply, but since it's a non-standard case with a propietary power supply, I had to order one. I ordered Fedex 2-day, so it should be here by Wed at the latest (I hope).

Hmm, any ATX power supply should work. What kind of mainboard do you have?

legacy-Airjrdn
03-14-2004, 10:06 PM
Mini-ATX. It's in an AMS E-Cube (http://www.amselectronics.com/Products/PC_Servers/EG65/EG65.html) so it's smaller than normal. I stopped by a computer place earlier today, and they had a 180W, and a 200W (no 220W which is what this has), but they were shaped a little differently and wouldn't work out in my case.

I could wire a regular 350W or so up, but it would have to reside outside of the case. I didn't really feel like going that route since I do have other PC's I can use until mine is up and running again.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-16-2004, 11:00 AM
Airjrdn:
Ever get your powersupply woes sorted out?

And how was your experience with Fedora?

legacy-Airjrdn
03-22-2004, 12:04 AM
I did get the new PSU, thanks for asking. :)

Fedora came and went quickly. I had a lot going on there for a week or so, it's just now starting to slow back down. When the new power supply got here, so did UT2K4. I restored an image (using Drive Image), installed UT2K4 and began playing.

I am curious if modaceface or anyone else trying it ended up sticking with it though.

legacy-ZaMoose
03-22-2004, 06:27 AM
It's actually pretty interesting. I've noticed that 1) the install went faster on my Athlon 1GHz machine with 512MB of RAM running Fedora Core 1 than it did on my 3GHz P4 with 1280MB of RAM and 2) levels load faster, even when I have "preload skins" set on my home box and deselected on my work, errrrm, P4 box. *grin*

I guess a good old fashioned UNIX 'cp' goes much faster than whatever installshield routine the windows installer uses.

legacy-Airjrdn
03-23-2004, 10:13 PM
XxX|Bossman, modaceface

You guys still running Linux or did you switch back to Windows?

legacy-fredle
03-25-2004, 05:27 PM
My P4 with undercloacked ATI radeon 9800 pro works great under linux!
(p4 -- gentoo 1.4 gentoo-dev-source 2.6.2)
Indeed, most people say the atidrivers sux.

But I love ATI big time.

The only *...* I think about ATI is that they don't realy care about linux.

I have a amd64 3400+, 1 GB and an radeon 9800XT, and I even can't get X running because ATI didn't release any amd64drivers yet.

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-26-2004, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by fredle
My P4 with undercloacked ATI radeon 9800 pro works great under linux!

Run these commands and paste the output in this thread:

ut2004demo ons-torlan?spectatoronly=true?numbots=12?quickstart=tr ue?attractcam=true -benchmark -seconds=120
tail -1 ~/.ut2004demo/Benchmark/benchmark.log

That will run a botmatch benchmark and display the output from the last benchmark you ran.

legacy-fredle
03-29-2004, 02:28 PM
wow thx

I'll post it as soon as I can ;-)

legacy-Airjrdn
03-29-2004, 06:48 PM
I took the word "demo" out and ran that from my Windows install, this is what I got:


14.167731 / 48.471905 / 69.223656 fps -- Score = 48.524082 rand[6218]

Is that with the settings I play with (my ini file settings)?

legacy-DeathPenguin
03-29-2004, 09:09 PM
yes