Are EPIC going back to basics?

[Vexta]

Do you think EPIC have realised the impact weapons like the Sawn Off or Retro (Or even the Lancer for that matter) have made on the game. It's clear how unpopular these weapons are.

What I propose/think will happen:

Competitive Lobby - Ranked only, decreased power on Lancer/no stopping power. Decreased power on Gnasher. No Sawn Off Shotgun, Retro Lancer or Hammerburst. Competitive gamemodes only such as Execution, TDM (Debatable), KoTH, BTTE. Ink Grenade minus stun.
Casual Lobby- All Gears 3 weapons apply, modes such as CTL/Guardian, Exec/Warzone, KoTH and TDM.

I wouldn't mind seeing it happen, Gears Judgement should be alot different from Gears 3 otherwise we'll see it go down the same route!

[MarkG85]

It took you this long to moan about the SoS & Retro dude. Really! Really!

Why can't you just be happy that we're getting a new game instead of trashing Gears 3 for its weapon choices. If you haven't learned how to counter the SoS and Retro yet then that's your own fault.

Oh and it's not Epic it's People Can Fly making the game with Epic consulting them.

I don't mean this to sound harsh but this is a new topic and people are already moaning.

[Meuj]

This article would imply a 'yes' (regarding the SoS, at least)

http://www.gamestm.co.uk/discuss/im-...ff-bleszinski/

[Vexta]

It took you this long to moan about the SoS & Retro dude. Really! Really!

Why can't you just be happy that we're getting a new game instead of trashing Gears 3 for its weapon choices. If you haven't learned how to counter the SoS and Retro yet then that's your own fault.

Oh and it's not Epic it's People Can Fly making the game with Epic consulting them.

I don't mean this to sound harsh but this is a new topic and people are already moaning.

I'm not moaning, I'm proposing. The SO and Retro are one of the main reasons for the huge population drop. To have such unpopular weapons in the new Gears would be telling customers to basically not buy it.

[Ghostofdelta2]

It took you this long to moan about the SoS & Retro dude. Really! Really!

Why can't you just be happy that we're getting a new game instead of trashing Gears 3 for its weapon choices. If you haven't learned how to counter the SoS and Retro yet then that's your own fault.

Oh and it's not Epic it's People Can Fly making the game with Epic consulting them.

I don't mean this to sound harsh but this is a new topic and people are already moaning.

Epic IS making the MP. PCF is making the SP.

[MarkG85]

Epic IS making the MP. PCF is making the SP.

Fair comment, apologies

[DanTheGamer11]

Epic IS making the MP. PCF is making the SP.

That's good to know, they did a decent job on Bulletstorm.

[Ghostofdelta2]

Fair comment, apologies

All good, I believed exactly as you did until watching the E3 videos and after seeing only Epic games staff talk about MP was a bit confused until one of the Epic staff explained it.

[NP473L]

If you haven't learned how to counter the SoS and Retro yet then that's your own fault.

That's not the point. I'm not going to get heavily involved in the discussion, but just because one doesn't like something does not automatically mean they 'get beat' by it.

[Ghostofdelta2]

That's good to know, they did a decent job on Bulletstorm.

I apologise in advance for my rant but PEOPLE CAN FLY ALSO MADE PAINKILLER, THE BEST FIRST PERSON SHOOTER EVER. I love Bulletstorm as well (I got to rank 27 for echoes and after not playing it for 6 months am ranked 50), so I am very very very excited.

[Ghostofdelta2]

That's not the point. I'm not going to get heavily involved in the discussion, but just because one doesn't like something does not automatically mean they 'get beat' by it.

You are coming dangerously close to using logic in the epic games forums

I had no issue with the new weapons, but it will be awesome to go back to the classic style Gears weapons only.

[NP473L]

You are coming dangerously close to using logic in the epic games forums

I had no issue with the new weapons, but it will be awesome to go back to the classic style Gears weapons only.

Haha...

I only said it because I almost feel the same way with those weapons (although I disagree with the premise of having them in some types but not others. If they're in the game, they're in the game). While I can, and inevitably will, counter and adapt my playstyle to get around their strong points, they don't 'fit' with what I jump on Gears of War to enjoy. For me, both weapons do their utmost to nullify CQ combat, because of their linearity (in my opinion of course ). Of course it means playing a patient waiting game etc. (which I am perfectly happy to do) but it's often the case that I jump first just to keep the game moving (knowing there's a 95% chance I'll die), simply because in QM KoTH or likewise, I am looking for a fast pace at times, and there's too much waiting for my puny attention span, which I believe is down to these weapons and their final (and almost fail safe at times) delivery. This of course fits a 'cover-based' shooter, but it's not how I enjoy playing, especially nowadays when I'm not in super duper competitive mode.

I simply dislike the way that both weapons seem to have been designed to heavily punish the aggressor, and while that very well may have been (and probably was part of) their intended purpose, it's something that will never sit right with me.

It's not something I lose sleep over, but it's definitely my take on the weapons, for good or for bad.

[Onyx Scott]

I hope so!

[TAO Devil]

Competitive Lobby - Ranked only, decreased power on Lancer/no stopping power. Decreased power on Gnasher. No Sawn Off Shotgun, Retro Lancer or Hammerburst. Competitive gamemodes only such as Execution, TDM (Debatable), KoTH, BTTE. Ink Grenade minus stun.
Casual Lobby- All Gears 3 weapons apply, modes such as CTL/Guardian, Exec/Warzone, KoTH and TDM.

This is doubtful. I don't seem them altering the game like that. Restricting gametypes to Ranked only? Restricting weapons to Casual only? Doesn't sit well.

[Onyx Scott]

Interesting what cliffy said about the sawed-off. I wonder what this will mean for judgment? Overrun only? Will it be pulled from the game? Locked for mp?

[Its Just Rave]

I apologise in advance for my rant but PEOPLE CAN FLY ALSO MADE PAINKILLER, THE BEST FIRST PERSON SHOOTER EVER. I love Bulletstorm as well (I got to rank 27 for echoes and after not playing it for 6 months am ranked 50), so I am very very very excited.

As soon as you said this I straight away thought of Yahtzee from Zero Puncuation... (Awesome series of reviews) and how much he loved that game... So it must be good

[NP473L]

Interesting what cliffy said about the sawed-off. I wonder what this will mean for judgment? Overrun only? Will it be pulled from the game? Locked for mp?

I don't really know, especially after we saw the Cole Train using it.

I won't hide that I'm not a fan of the weapon and what it represents and entails, but I'm very surprised by what he said. I thought it would be a dead cert for GoW:J

[Valafar123]

Copy pasted from another one of my posts:


If it's not in there, I will send Cliffy B. fan mail. Glad he realised that the SOS was a bad idea. Note that I feel differently about the Retro, which was poor design. It's not the same.

The problem with the SOS is not how good or bad it is, it's the function it serves. Having a noob gun is a bad idea no matter how it's done.

The problem with the Retro is a case of how good or bad it is. The notion of a close-medium range rifle is fine, it was just executed poorly. Right now the Retro is bleeding over into Gnasher and Lancer territory. The Hammerburst had the same problem, but now its range threshold is clearly defined; it does not encroach on the other gun's territory. This problem also applies to the Gnasher and Lancer.

The Retro is potentially a very skilled gun thanks to its dynamic qualities. This, however, is overshadowed by its brute power.

The Retro can be fixed by rebalancing, but the SOS will never be fine. Power and skill are mutually exclusive factors. Reduced power does not justify a less skilled gun.

Cliffy mentioned how he wanted to make GoW more like Dark Souls. I'd like the skill level to come back, and I think he does too. As long as they avoid low-skill guns, the game will be fine. Power can be fixed post-release if it's an issue.

My two cents.

And about Cole: promo stuff can be misleading. Remember the SOS firing two shots in one trailer?

[Vexta]

This is doubtful. I don't seem them altering the game like that. Restricting gametypes to Ranked only? Restricting weapons to Casual only? Doesn't sit well.

I hope for something along the lines of this IF EPIC decide to keep the Retro and Sawn Off.

Copy pasted from another one of my posts:


If it's not in there, I will send Cliffy B. fan mail. Glad he realised that the SOS was a bad idea. Note that I feel differently about the Retro, which was poor design. It's not the same.

The problem with the SOS is not how good or bad it is, it's the function it serves. Having a noob gun is a bad idea no matter how it's done.

The problem with the Retro is a case of how good or bad it is. The notion of a close-medium range rifle is fine, it was just executed poorly. Right now the Retro is bleeding over into Gnasher and Lancer territory. The Hammerburst had the same problem, but now its range threshold is clearly defined; it does not encroach on the other gun's territory. This problem also applies to the Gnasher and Lancer.

The Retro is potentially a very skilled gun thanks to its dynamic qualities. This, however, is overshadowed by its brute power.

The Retro can be fixed by rebalancing, but the SOS will never be fine. Power and skill are mutually exclusive factors. Reduced power does not justify a less skilled gun.

Cliffy mentioned how he wanted to make GoW more like Dark Souls. I'd like the skill level to come back, and I think he does too. As long as they avoid low-skill guns, the game will be fine. Power can be fixed post-release if it's an issue.

My two cents.

And about Cole: promo stuff can be misleading. Remember the SOS firing two shots in one trailer?

That's a great post!

[Desert pengu1n]

i quite like this idea to be honest

[Valafar123]

I hope for something along the lines of this IF EPIC decide to keep the Retro and Sawn Off.



That's a great post!

Thank you.

[Bazinga-A7X]

Do you think EPIC have realised the impact weapons like the Sawn Off or Retro (Or even the Lancer for that matter) have made on the game. It's clear how unpopular these weapons are.

What I propose/think will happen:

Competitive Lobby - Ranked only, decreased power on Lancer/no stopping power. Decreased power on Gnasher. No Sawn Off Shotgun, Retro Lancer or Hammerburst. Competitive gamemodes only such as Execution, TDM (Debatable), KoTH, BTTE. Ink Grenade minus stun.
Casual Lobby- All Gears 3 weapons apply, modes such as CTL/Guardian, Exec/Warzone, KoTH and TDM.

I wouldn't mind seeing it happen, Gears Judgement should be alot different from Gears 3 otherwise we'll see it go down the same route!

At first I rolled my eyes seeing. Like c'mon, are we really going to start the SOS and Retro complaining so soon. To me the SOS has it's uses , after the nerf, and can be strategically used when combined with a Retro or HB. I actually think its a gun that requires more skill than the Gnasher because of the limited range and long reload. As for the Retro, yes, it's damage can be toned down, and maybe it's recoil turned up some more.

If I read you right, on Comepetitive, I think that would suck. Just Lancer and Gnasher, with the Lancer having no stopping power and less damage. Really the gun becomes useless, and can't prevent an enemy player from rolling up to you with a one trigger pull Gnasher kill. The game again becomes a Gnasher rushing wall-bounce fest, in other words Gears 1 & 2. Not everybody wants to play that. I would suggest that if they do this' it's its own playlist within Ranked.

[123MAN]

Completely disagree, would split the community too much. Competitive is for a niche gamer, it should stick to private. Whether you like, agree with it or not, but casual gamers NOT CASUALS, are the main player base for Gears now.

[Vexta]

At first I rolled my eyes seeing. Like c'mon, are we really going to start the SOS and Retro complaining so soon. To me the SOS has it's uses , after the nerf, and can be strategically used when combined with a Retro or HB. I actually think its a gun that requires more skill than the Gnasher because of the limited range and long reload. As for the Retro, yes, it's damage can be toned down, and maybe it's recoil turned up some more.

If I read you right, on Comepetitive, I think that would suck. Just Lancer and Gnasher, with the Lancer having no stopping power and less damage. Really the gun becomes useless, and can't prevent an enemy player from rolling up to you with a one trigger pull Gnasher kill. The game again becomes a Gnasher rushing wall-bounce fest, in other words Gears 1 & 2. Not everybody wants to play that. I would suggest that if they do this' it's its own playlist within Ranked.

I wouldn't say the SO takes more skill than the Gnasher, it's just a suicide weapon IMO.

And on the competitive, I meant decreased power on Lancer/no stopping power. One or the other, that's why I put / and not 'and' .

[Vexta]

Completely disagree, would split the community too much. Competitive is for a niche gamer, it should stick to private. Whether you like, agree with it or not, but casual gamers NOT CASUALS, are the main player base for Gears now.

If that's the case then why are Gears 3 numbers so low?

[123MAN]

If that's the case then why are Gears 3 numbers so low?

Largest player base of all three games.

[NP473L]

Largest player base of all three games.

Again, I have a small interest with the issue at hand, but that is almost immaterial.

The important stats are its ranking at the current time, compared to other games, because that stat is inflated by more people having Xbox Live or even just more having a 360.

Percentage or Ranking at whatever period after release. All other 'population' stats are surely arbitrary?



I have no idea what the stats are, but I'm just pointing out that absolute population given a different time period is meaningless.

[Valafar123]

Again, I have a small interest with the issue at hand, but that is almost immaterial.

The important stats are its ranking at the current time, compared to other games, because that stat is inflated by more people having Xbox Live or even just more having a 360.

Percentage or Ranking at whatever period after release. All other 'population' stats are surely arbitrary?



I have no idea what the stats are, but I'm just pointing out that absolute population given a different time period is meaningless.

^ this ^

Basic statistics and economics.

[Vexta]

Largest player base of all three games.

Only because Gears 3 sold the most.

I'm not looking to start an argument, all I'm saying is that if EPIC want to keep the Retro and Sawn Off, I wanted a playlist where they're not there.

[123MAN]

Again, I have a small interest with the issue at hand, but that is almost immaterial.

The important stats are its ranking at the current time, compared to other games, because that stat is inflated by more people having Xbox Live or even just more having a 360.

Percentage or Ranking at whatever period after release. All other 'population' stats are surely arbitrary?



I have no idea what the stats are, but I'm just pointing out that absolute population given a different time period is meaningless.

I have a tutor coming. I have a big rebuttal to this. Considering I just studied it for the first time ever

[123MAN]

Only because Gears 3 sold the most.

I'm not looking to start an argument, all I'm saying is that if EPIC want to keep the Retro and Sawn Off, I wanted a playlist where they're not there.

GoW 2 sold the most. More competition meant less sales for 3.

[allcitychessclub13]

Only because Gears 3 sold the most.

I'm not looking to start an argument, all I'm saying is that if EPIC want to keep the Retro and Sawn Off, I wanted a playlist where they're not there.

Basically alpha with some tweaks then?

[Vexta]

GoW 2 sold the most. More competition meant less sales for 3.

Fair enough. But even then, Gears 3 was expected to have the largest MP base. Gears 2 didn't because of its horrific release and so on. The only reason people were dropping out was because of things like the Retro or Sawn Off.

Basically alpha with some tweaks then?

Bigger than Alpha.

[TAO Devil]

GoW 2 sold the most. More competition meant less sales for 3.

If you mean overall sales, yes. However, Gears 2 has had 3+ years and Gears 3 has had 9 months.

[SQuirrel147]

Not sure that Epic would do this. They wouldn't say casual or ranked for sure. The worst thing to do to casuals is tell them they are casuals. I'd rather they just had the whole game balanced and not just a few playlists. And I hope they drop the Rock-Paper-Scissors gameplay with the spawn weapons.

This article would imply a 'yes' (regarding the SoS, at least)

http://www.gamestm.co.uk/discuss/im-...ff-bleszinski/

Best article I've read in a long time

[TH3 ZomBifiieD]

Copy pasted from another one of my posts:


If it's not in there, I will send Cliffy B. fan mail. Glad he realised that the SOS was a bad idea. Note that I feel differently about the Retro, which was poor design. It's not the same.

The problem with the SOS is not how good or bad it is, it's the function it serves. Having a noob gun is a bad idea no matter how it's done.

The problem with the Retro is a case of how good or bad it is. The notion of a close-medium range rifle is fine, it was just executed poorly. Right now the Retro is bleeding over into Gnasher and Lancer territory. The Hammerburst had the same problem, but now its range threshold is clearly defined; it does not encroach on the other gun's territory. This problem also applies to the Gnasher and Lancer.

The Retro is potentially a very skilled gun thanks to its dynamic qualities. This, however, is overshadowed by its brute power.

The Retro can be fixed by rebalancing, but the SOS will never be fine. Power and skill are mutually exclusive factors. Reduced power does not justify a less skilled gun.

Cliffy mentioned how he wanted to make GoW more like Dark Souls. I'd like the skill level to come back, and I think he does too. As long as they avoid low-skill guns, the game will be fine. Power can be fixed post-release if it's an issue.

My two cents.

And about Cole: promo stuff can be misleading. Remember the SOS firing two shots in one trailer?

Cliff Blezinski said this? in this day and age of gaming! That sounds like market suicide so even if he truly wishes GOW J was a skill based game, he will easily be overshadowed by the need to appease the casual players " which make up the majority of sales" I'm still amazed he would even dare to say this considering how GOW 3 was designed to be so so easy.

Im a die hard Dark Souls fan and love to dominate MP. I also find many great challenging duels which keep me coming back almost every day. I still think adding a skill curve to a game should inspire and excite "even" casual gamers but i am disproven time and time again when i look to a forum and everyone get's discouraged because they can't do well from the get go.

What i see as a challenge, most seem to see as a headache? That is what ruins Multiplayer in gaming, "The need to baby game mechanics in order to keep everyone on as equal a playing field as possible'. Never more visible then in GOW 3.

GOW 3 Examples...

#1 Bullet Magnetism

#2 Auto Aim assistance to all weapons

#3 Overpowered Weapons "including all current starting weapons"

#4 Emphasis placed on teamwork rifle patterns over skill based evasive gameplay.

#5 Weapon detection killing over 1.5 second after a player is killed AKA "Updating"

#6 Stopping Power on the rifles and shotguns in order to make players slower when moving (even easier to hit) while already having "Auto Aim" while also already having "Bullet Magnetism".


I would just about bet my life that GOWJ will undoubtedly be more of the same as Gow 3, Although i am simply amazed at Cliff's Audacity to dare to compare the skill in Dark Souls, to Gears Of War.

[TH3 ZomBifiieD]

Not sure that Epic would do this. They wouldn't say casual or ranked for sure. The worst thing to do to casuals is tell them they are casuals. I'd rather they just had the whole game balanced and not just a few playlists. And I hope they drop the Rock-Paper-Scissors gameplay with the spawn weapons.

The problem with that is that when you get a pool of players that are overall more experienced, thus more skilled, and you have weapons that have the potential to dominate the game if used to peak efficiency. The game doesn't work for both groups of players. My example is the Retro Lancer in Gow 3. Many casual players can use it quite well at short ranges but if you learn to feather the trigger, a whole new realm of possibilities opens up.

When used by an experienced player it dominates at midrange and can down at longrange if people aren't in cover for more than 2 seconds, (which happens quite often).

Stopping Power does a good job in balancing the gnasher's effectiveness against rifles (because many people can't constantly aim and hit a moving target) in most games.

But becomes a feature that makes the Rifles dominate when used by a higher skilled pool of players. Wall-bouncing does correct this to a point, but rifles used in unison by a team will always have a greater benefit then ever considering pulling out your Gnasher, especially if you can glue someone in place with constant Lancer fire.

So having the same weapon balances for more casual players, and the more hardcore is a very tricky thing to nail. That becomes even harder in a game like Gears that is all about positioning and movement. But without a doubt Gow 3 was geared entirely to the casual playerbase because they were/are the majority... GOWJ will likely follow in that direction...

[War Pigs]

I think in order to reallly balance the rifles and shotguns, you have to:

1. Make maps that don't give advantages to either weapon, so NO high ground and no maps strictly for close range combat, make medium or large sized maps with cover that can accommodate both types of players with neither having an advantage.

2. Make stopping power more selective, I.E. i'm not going to be slowed down if you shoot me in the hand... but if you shoot me in the legs that's a different story. Make stopping power only affect people charging, and have stopping power not affect people rolling.

3. Lancer, give it a 50 round magazine like it had in Gears of War, and have the headshot multiplier, but NO active multiplier, with the opposite for the hammerburst, leave the longer active on the hammerburst, but make it count. So hammerburst has no headshot multiplier and active damage, like it is now in Gears of War 3. Have it take only 2 shots to kill a downed person for the hammerburst, and 6 or 7 for the Lancer.

4. Retro, NO stopping power, no matter what. Have a damage dropoff after about 20 or so feet. A very strong recoil, and bad accuracy beyond 20 feet.

5. Shotguns need better hit detection so theres no "updating" but leave in client side hit detection. Give the sawed off the same type of active as the hammerburst, where the perfect active is at the back of the white bar, and make it take slightly longer. Regular sawed off range should be about 4 feet, actived should 7 feet.

[Tortyreus]

I swear on my life; if any of these 2 weapons enter the MP as standard weapons that you can get all the time then I will either not buy this game or only for the single-player. If the weapons are map-based power-weapons then I think it's cool, but otherwise: NO.

[mmartina]

i wish their was a playlist that you can use dbs & retro the other gamemode go back to the classic lancer, gnasher, hammerburst