Sawed-Off Shotgun...

[HalfShell]

Well while I may not agree entirely with his viewpoint is mentioned statement in general is correct. Anything can look overpowered on paper. In use however it can be a different story because of all the factors that come into play by just putting it under human control.

Breaking down the base stats of units in RTS or MOBA games typically have units or characters look far more OP then they really turn out to be in user play. And sometimes it can be alternative. Something underpowered on paper can actually end up being pretty game breaking if used correctly.

The Gnasher is horribly overpowered and there is no doubt about it. You can down people in 2 shots at 15 feet and with 1 shot around 10 feet. You have the ability to gib at 2x the range of the SoS and have a very fast active reload. It is over powered on paper and it is over powered in the game.

[allcitychessclub13]

Well while I may not agree entirely with his viewpoint is mentioned statement in general is correct. Anything can look overpowered on paper. In use however it can be a different story because of all the factors that come into play by just putting it under human control.

Breaking down the base stats of units in RTS or MOBA games typically have units or characters look far more OP then they really turn out to be in user play. And sometimes it can be alternative. Something underpowered on paper can actually end up being pretty game breaking if used correctly.

I do believe that the gnasher is op but not like everybody hypes it up to be.

SOS is an alternative, not a direct counter to the Gnasher. It is the counter to the Retro Lancer.

Thats cool i just wanted to know since alot of people want it turned into a crutch instead of an alternative.

[123MAN]

I do believe that the gnasher is op but not like everybody hypes it up to be.


Thats cool i just wanted to know since alot of people want it turned into a crutch instead of an alternative.

Yes it was OP at the start. But against the Gnasher it seemed fine as both were very OP. I think the SO wouldn't have been as effective now if it hadn't been nerfed as it was on release. As more people would have learned how to avoid it. Compared to the Gnasher now it is underpowered like nothing. If they are both shotguns then they should be balanced against each other.

Right now the Gnasher has a longer range, a quicker active, an active boost and 8 shells. It against the SO feels like a nuke.
If the SO has no active boost, then neither should the Gnasher.
If the SO has a long reload, so should the Gnasher.

If these shotguns are to be alternatives for each other, then they need to be balanced.
It is unfair if the Gnasher has a longer range and 8 shells as well.
All the SO has right now is a larger spread. Either it should get a longer range or a more shells.

As it stands it is unbalanced.


And before anyone goes: The SO are training wheels dude people need to learn to use the Gnasher, Ima go smoke some weed brah.


Well tell me what makes the SO more appealing to new players, when there is a Gnasher?
NOTHING

[allcitychessclub13]

Yes it was OP at the start. But against the Gnasher it seemed fine as both were very OP. I think the SO wouldn't have been as effective now if it hadn't been nerfed as it was on release. As more people would have learned how to avoid it. Compared to the Gnasher now it is underpowered like nothing. If they are both shotguns then they should be balanced against each other.

Right now the Gnasher has a longer range, a quicker active, an active boost and 8 shells. It against the SO feels like a nuke.
If the SO has no active boost, then neither should the Gnasher.
If the SO has a long reload, so should the Gnasher.

If these shotguns are to be alternatives for each other, then they need to be balanced.
It is unfair if the Gnasher has a longer range and 8 shells as well.
All the SO has right now is a larger spread. Either it should get a longer range or a more shells.

As it stands it is unbalanced.


And before anyone goes: The SO are training wheels dude people need to learn to use the Gnasher, Ima go smoke some weed brah.


Well tell me what makes the SO more appealing to new players, when there is a Gnasher?
NOTHING

Sos has a wider spread so it negates strafes and wallbouncing.

[123MAN]

Sos has a wider spread so it negates strafes and wallbouncing.

But at what range, I have never come across someone that can strafe at melee range. Even the Gnasher beats people at that range. I am just saying that it should get a slight range increase and the tweaks should be made to the Gnasher to balance it against the SO.

[HalfShell]

Yes it was OP at the start. But against the Gnasher it seemed fine as both were very OP. I think the SO wouldn't have been as effective now if it hadn't been nerfed as it was on release. As more people would have learned how to avoid it. Compared to the Gnasher now it is underpowered like nothing. If they are both shotguns then they should be balanced against each other.

Right now the Gnasher has a longer range, a quicker active, an active boost and 8 shells. It against the SO feels like a nuke.
If the SO has no active boost, then neither should the Gnasher.
If the SO has a long reload, so should the Gnasher.

If these shotguns are to be alternatives for each other, then they need to be balanced.
It is unfair if the Gnasher has a longer range and 8 shells as well.
All the SO has right now is a larger spread. Either it should get a longer range or a more shells.

As it stands it is unbalanced.


And before anyone goes: The SO are training wheels dude people need to learn to use the Gnasher, Ima go smoke some weed brah.


Well tell me what makes the SO more appealing to new players, when there is a Gnasher?
NOTHING

Quit using logic and reason. You will make the gnasher fans confused and angry.

[123MAN]

Quit using logic and reason. You will make the gnasher fans confused and angry.

Insulting them will get you no where. I have been saying stuff like this for well, since I joined the forums.

[Tysodie]

Looking through this thread people have made some valid points, the fact of the matter is the sawed-off was supposed to be an alternative, something that the people who were not good with the gnasher could use, although right now, neither one is balanced against the other, they're supposed to be equals, not the Gnasher completely outclassing the sawed-off, balance was practically thrown out the window......

[HalfShell]

Insulting them will get you no where. I have been saying stuff like this for well, since I joined the forums.

Using reason and evidence doesn't seem to get anywhere. The Gnasher is horribly overpowered and something needs to be done about it. I have already seen countless threads with massive support for a SoS buff and that even includes the several months I spent lurking the forums, yet Epic does not address this major issue.

[123MAN]

Using reason and evidence doesn't seem to get anywhere. The Gnasher is horribly overpowered and something needs to be done about it. I have already seen countless threads with massive support for a SoS buff and that even includes the several months I spent lurking the forums, yet Epic does not address this major issue.

They cannot address it.

If they nerf the Gnasher cry babies will complain.
If they buff the SOS the same cry babies will complain.

[HalfShell]

They cannot address it.

If they nerf the Gnasher cry babies will complain.
If they buff the SOS the same cry babies will complain.

And you comment on me insulting people. OH THE HYPOCRISY!

[123MAN]

And you comment on me insulting people. OH THE HYPOCRISY!

You are insulting people directly here at times.

I am simply stating fact. If I say 2+2=4 and someone says it is 5. They will be insulted, but I was stating fact.

[LambentHammerburst]

Well while I may not agree entirely with his viewpoint is mentioned statement in general is correct. Anything can look overpowered on paper. In use however it can be a different story because of all the factors that come into play by just putting it under human control.

Breaking down the base stats of units in RTS or MOBA games typically have units or characters look far more OP then they really turn out to be in user play. And sometimes it can be alternative. Something underpowered on paper can actually end up being pretty game breaking if used correctly.

You are aware even Pete and Quinn have themselves said the Gnasher is OP?
It is. However they can't touch it because of the backlash they'd get Gnasher-heads

[Bspencer]

You sos users need to get together and decide if it is a counter or an alternative. Also if you arent open to anybody's opinion why comment.

I'm totally open to yall's opinions and respect them, I just didn't want to hear the same recycled arguments: The SO is a noob gun; The Gnasher is fine the way it is; Retro is the counter to the Gnasher; etc. I didn't want to start any debate about the weapons that's all, while you sound like the typical Gnasher user. No offense

[123MAN]

I'm totally open to yall's opinions and respect them, I just didn't want to hear the same recycled arguments: The SO is a noob gun; The Gnasher is fine the way it is; Retro is the counter to the Gnasher; etc. I didn't want to start any debate about the weapons that's all, while you sound like the typical Gnasher user. No offense

He is actually one of the less bias people on the forums.

[Bspencer]

The retro was made to counter the gnasher, bcan its hard to counter a weapon that downs you in 1 shot lol

Exactly my point.

[HalfShell]

You are aware even Pete and Quinn have themselves said the Gnasher is OP?
It is. However they can't touch it because of the backlash they'd get Gnasher-heads

The have had no problem screwing over every single other person in the game. How about they make it fair for once?

[Bspencer]

He is actually one of the less bias people on the forums.

Maybe, I can understand emotion in words sometimes but he wrote as if he was advocating for the weapon. True "unbiasedness" comes from playing with whatever weapon and getting kills and excepting the fact that you die by some more than others; all while enjoying the game for what it is. Or I may be the only person that feels that way.

[123MAN]

The have had no problem screwing over every single other person in the game. How about they make it fair for once?

They can't the majority of the Gears gamers care casual players. In general they don't follow or comment on Gears on Facebook, Twitter and the Epic Games Forums. So it is difficult to gather their views on these topics. I myself was far too addicted to Gears at the start. I didn't come on the forums and therefore couldn't really comment on the SOS issue and defend it. Not that it would have really made a difference. Casual players would be like that, not really interested as much in what goes on behind the scenes so to speak.

[LambentHammerburst]

The have had no problem screwing over every single other person in the game. How about they make it fair for once?

Because the population of "Gnasher-only" players is far too large. It's a very high percentage of players.
Hell take a look at the mass amounts of complaints over "sponging" - just a little lag and people are complaining to no end about the Gnasher. Yet myself who has a weak connection - don't have this "sponging" issue.

[HalfShell]

Because the population of "Gnasher-only" players is far too large. It's a very high percentage of players.

I live in Ottawa so let's keep Canadian politics out of this. I turn to games to get away form that stuff . j/k

I am not saying take the gnasher out of the game. They simply need to reduce the range and get rid of the 1 shot downs. Those two problems make the Gnaher an overpowered gun and doesn't allow for diverse gameplay.

[Fishead John]

You are aware even Pete and Quinn have themselves said the Gnasher is OP?
It is. However they can't touch it because of the backlash they'd get Gnasher-heads

I was originally under the impression that he didn't find it over-powered until his post on page 9. And yes I'm aware of the devs statements.

However my statement was as I said "his statement in general" meaning that I was not pertaining the content of the following to the specific discussion of "Gnasher being OP". But instead making a general statement followed by a generalized example that anything when written down can end up looking more overpowered then it really is.

That is all I was agreeing with. Mainly because throwing numbers at each other as a form of discussion doesn't cut it. And yes I understand Western society in part due to the Americanization of Western Society has led to a great love of throwing statistics at each other as form of accepted arguement.

[123MAN]

I live in Ottawa so let's keep Canadian politics out of this. I turn to games to get away form that stuff . j/k

I am not saying take the gnasher out of the game. They simply need to reduce the range and get rid of the 1 shot downs. Those two problems make the Gnaher an overpowered gun and doesn't allow for diverse gameplay.

Those are really small changes. If I was to balance the Gnasher against the SO.

I would first either make the SO reload quicker or the Gnasher reload longer.
The active reload is either easier on the SO or harder on the Gnasher.
The active boost of the Gnasher is eliminated.

Now either the SO range is increased slightly with a wider spread or the Gnasher range is shortened in CQ and more shells are loaded onto the SO.

The Gnasher damage should also take a very slight nerf. Beyond CQ though there should be a significant nerf for the Gnasher in terms of damage.

Nothing more of nothing less. If I made a mistake please feel free to correct me. It is late at night and I am tired. If I missed anything also let me know

[HalfShell]

Those are really small changes. If I was to balance the Gnasher against the SO.

I would first either make the SO reload quicker or the Gnasher reload longer.
The active reload is either easier on the SO or harder on the Gnasher.
The active boost of the Gnasher is eliminated.

Now either the SO range is increased slightly with a wider spread or the Gnasher range is shortened in CQ and more shells are loaded onto the SO.

The Gnasher damage should also take a very slight nerf. Beyond CQ though there should be a significant nerf for the Gnasher in terms of damage.

Nothing more of nothing less. If I made a mistake please feel free to correct me. It is late at night and I am tired. If I missed anything also let me know

You pretty much got it spot on. Those are the exact problems with the Gnasher.

[Purple Rayne]

When will people realize that the Sawed-Off was never meant to be as good as the Gnasher in the first place?

[HalfShell]

Nothing wrong with giving the community what they've wanted to try, right?

Why doesn't this logic carry through to other issues like this one? I have yet to see a nerfed Gnasher even if it were for a weekend.

[123MAN]

When will people realize that the Sawed-Off was never meant to be as good as the Gnasher in the first place?

Well if it was meant for new players, why is the Gnasher a better choice in every way?

[Fishead John]

Those are really small changes. If I was to balance the Gnasher against the SO.

I would first either make the SO reload quicker or the Gnasher reload longer.
The active reload is either easier on the SO or harder on the Gnasher.
The active boost of the Gnasher is eliminated.

Now either the SO range is increased slightly with a wider spread or the Gnasher range is shortened in CQ and more shells are loaded onto the SO.

The Gnasher damage should also take a very slight nerf. Beyond CQ though there should be a significant nerf for the Gnasher in terms of damage.

Nothing more of nothing less. If I made a mistake please feel free to correct me. It is late at night and I am tired. If I missed anything also let me know

Zeta has a faster reload on the SOS coupled with a slightly harder or arguably easier active bar on it aswell. I find it pretty balanced in that gamemode. Maybe they ought to just port Zeta as a standard.

[HalfShell]

Zeta has a faster reload on the SOS coupled with a slightly harder or arguably easier active bar on it aswell. I find it pretty balanced in that gamemode. Maybe they ought to just port Zeta as a standard.

That still doesn't solve the problem with the Gnasher dropping people from 15+ feet away in 2 shots.

[Fishead John]

That still doesn't solve the problem with the Gnasher dropping people from 15+ feet away in 2 shots.

No but its a start right?

[LambentHammerburst]

I was originally under the impression that he didn't find it over-powered until his post on page 9. And yes I'm aware of the devs statements.

However my statement was as I said "his statement in general" meaning that I was not pertaining the content of the following to the specific discussion of "Gnasher being OP". But instead making a general statement followed by a generalized example that anything when written down can end up looking more overpowered then it really is.

That is all I was agreeing with. Mainly because throwing numbers at each other as a form of discussion doesn't cut it. And yes I understand Western society in part due to the Americanization of Western Society has led to a great love of throwing statistics at each other as form of accepted arguement.

It's not just "throwing statistics"
Use the weapon. I've lost track of the Quinns I got with the Gnasher because it downing/gibbing every shot.
I'd had various Hat Trick/Triple combos.
The Gnasher is high damage, good range and easiest AR to hit.

You can down with it at medium range.
At the range the Sawed-Off deals 0 damage
Range Sawed-Off gibs - Gnasher will down if Active
The Sawed-Off gib range is a mere step difference of the Gnasher - meaning most of the time you kill trade and even if you don't the Gnasher user would down him if he had his shot active.

Here's a post by Quinn (Pete retweeted it):
https://twitter.com/#!/quinndelhoyo/status/169961631319736322

[Purple Rayne]

Well if it was meant for new players, why is the Gnasher a better choice in every way?

It's only better if you're familiar with the mechanics of the game and are used to the controls. Because of the Sawed-Off's spread, you don't need to worry about being precise. Just run up, aim in their general direction, and shoot. In the end, though, it's all just a matter of preference and what feels comfortable. Some new players will prefer the Sawed-Off, others may prefer the Gnasher.

I see the Sawed-Off as more of an introduction to GoW's close-quarter combat. Then, once you've gotten a feel for the game, you sort of "promote" yourself to the Gnasher. The thing is, you guys are trying to make a case for a gun that was never really intended to compete with the Gnasher in the first place. Hell, even the Gnasher's in-game description says that it's the best choice.

[Fishead John]

It's not just "throwing statistics"
Use the weapon. I've lost track of the Quinns I got with the Gnasher because it downing/gibbing every shot.
I'd had various Hat Trick/Triple combos.
The Gnasher is high damage, good range and easiest AR to hit.

You can down with it at medium range.
At the range the Sawed-Off deals 0 damage
Range Sawed-Off gibs - Gnasher will down if Active
The Sawed-Off gib range is a mere step difference of the Gnasher - meaning most of the time you kill trade and even if you don't the Gnasher user would down him if he had his shot active.

Here's a post by Quinn (Pete retweeted it):
https://twitter.com/#!/quinndelhoyo/status/169961631319736322

once again not disagreeing with you on the Gnasher. I share the same sentiment and comparable experiences. Familiar with said tweet.

However still just putting numbers out there still falls under the rule of "it looked good on paper". Sometimes oh sweet mother soemthing does turn out to be really good based on its stats. Other times in practical use its simply not as good as you would be lead to believe. Once again reiterating that this was the only intention of what I stated. Laying out statistics isn't concrete. None would've believed Truman would beat Stevenson in 1948 if they only believed in what numerical polls tell them. Not speaking of the shotgun balancing issue at hand only stating an opinion against the common practice of throwing out numbers as an argument.

[123MAN]

It's only better if you're familiar with the mechanics of the game and are used to the controls. Because of the Sawed-Off's spread, you don't need to worry about being precise. Just run up, aim in their general direction, and shoot. In the end, though, it's all just a matter of preference and what feels comfortable. Some new players will prefer the Sawed-Off, others may prefer the Gnasher.

I see the Sawed-Off as more of an introduction to GoW's close-quarter combat. Then, once you've gotten a feel for the game, you sort of "promote" yourself to the Gnasher. The thing is, you guys are trying to make a case for a gun that was never really intended to compete with the Gnasher in the first place. Hell, even the Gnasher's in-game description says that it's the best choice.

The Gnasher does everything the SOS can except get collateral kills regularly. This is hardly balanced. The SOS should be an alternative, for people that don't want to use the Gnasher. Not necessarily people that are bad with it. At the moment the Gnasher out shines it in every way. I certainly am never going to use the Gnasher as my primary shotgun, yet my choice is not balanced at all.

[HalfShell]

The Gnasher does everything the SOS can except get collateral kills regularly. This is hardly balanced.

Actually the only thing it can't get is the KABOOM! ribbon. I have downed 2 people with a single active shot many times with the Gnasher.

[Purple Rayne]

The Gnasher does everything the SOS can except get collateral kills regularly. This is hardly balanced.

It isn't supposed to be - that's what I'm trying to tell you. The Sawed-Off isn't meant to compete with the Gnasher, never was, hence why it was nerfed in the first place; it was performing beyond its intended capabilities.

[123MAN]

It isn't supposed to be - that's what I'm trying to tell you. The Sawed-Off isn't meant to compete with the Gnasher, never was, hence why it was nerfed in the first place; it was performing beyond its intended capabilities.

The SOS was brought in as an alternative to the Gnasher, but it was not meant to be as weak as it is. The Gnasher outclasses it. Check my old post I edited it with more info.

[Purple Rayne]

The SOS was brought in as an alternative to the Gnasher, but it was not meant to be as weak as it is. The Gnasher outclasses it. Check my old post I edited it with more info.

Its purpose wasn't to be an on-par alternative to the Gnasher. Sorry, but that's the reality of it. Its current capabilities are the way they were meant to be. When it was nerfed, it was done so because it was performing beyond its intended capabilities. That's not simply my opinion - it's the reason given by the devs. You, on the other hand, are making claims like "it was not meant to be as weak as it is," as if you're one of GoW3's developers, which you're not. You can't just make baseless statements like that, when the actions of the developers clearly prove otherwise.

[fireclaymore]

Though I don't like the current balance of the SO and gnasher right now, I do have to say that I found the launch SO to be rather annoying. Being able to gib at ranges greater than the gnasher along with having greater spread, allowed people to run out of cover and into direct fire of weapons with stopping power with less consequence. I'd seen a teammate lay down suppressive fire for others behind to catch up and advance, yet that person still got rushed by only 1 SO user that runs out in the open, get his kill, and run.

This means that the launch SO negated the use of cover and stopping power. You may include weapon and range specific problems that follow beside them.

Honestly though, I think that the base that they started from was flawed...the gnasher. I still think that my idea of an experimentation playlist would have been a nice way of testing ideas for any weapon(like testing out the gnasher with shorter gib range). Last bit will just be an informational statement. Both shotguns have a kind of sweet spot because they both spread out...since they're shotguns. Though less noticeable with the gnasher's insta-kill range, the effect still occurs.

[MilkShake 779]

I was playing Quick match with a group of friends today. WE played on the map that is a Grocery store?, well I had the SOS and this game was in cover, I ran up to him and shot him at point blank range and what ends up happening; his grenade magically appeared over my head & I died, only some blood on his part, and on my screen it showed that I dropped my lancer instead of my SOS.

WTF man! lol. It's been happening all week and I'm sick of what ever is going on with Epic or who ever is managing these games on the servers. It almost seems as If I have to go beyond "point blank range" and find a way to put the SOS up someone's "gas pipe" then shot. I think then I should be okay, cause if I'm still having problems after that, I gonna go on strike! lol.