Origins of the Locust - A study of the Lambent, the Sires, the Locust and Myrrah

[Joveus]

Sires are early forms of Locust, correct?

Not quite - Sires are an early form of Former. Locust are the literal descendants of the Sires, children.

[Coleyman]

Sires are early forms of Locust, correct?

Sires are the earliest form of Lambent Humans (i.e. Alpha Formers), when Lambency caused different mutations than what it does during 17AE. No yellow gloop, no explosions. But significant biological changes brought about by extended exposure to the Lambent parasite in its early stage of its life-cycle.

The Locust are the descendants (either direct children, or genetically engineered offspring; we don't actually know) of these Sires.

They knew they would make a series, but you are right. The only things they KNEW would happen in the series were:

*Adam being alive
*Queen Myrrah and her being Human
*Locust = Humans
*Maria would die
*Dom would die because of Maria

Epic did not plan for any of these events to happen/be true when they first worked on Gears of War. It's also massively unlikely that Epic planned to make a series that would span 3/4 games, 5 novels and dozens of comic books when they sat down in the mid-2000s to make that third person, vehicular based game that eventually became Gears of War. Furthermore, you bring no evidence to light that supports your claim. You are incorrect.

[DarkSlayerx47]

very amusing post, i agree on every aspect and points you gave, and about the queen i had a similar thought, that she was a scientist and part of the new hope facility (or had a connection)

[Asrial]

Just finished The Slab. Wonder how the people, who caused the uproar over the Nashtyboy thread, feel

[Joveus]

Just finished The Slab. Wonder how the people, who caused the uproar over the Nashtyboy thread, feel

Original poster of the infamous Nashtyboy thread here, guys. Eleven months later, the circle is complete.

Edit: I've finally updated the first page with the history of the Nashtyboy thread and quotes from the EPIC devs and Karen Traviss, now you don't have to go through 20 pages to find them. Hopefully this'll clear up a few misconceptions regarding what that thread was actually about.

[sparkz552]

Just have to say this might be the best thread I've ever read on any forum ever... granted I haven't been on many forums, but kudos nonetheless!

[GeneralGreasy]

Just finished reading TAO Devil's Locust theory and I find his explanation of the Kantus quite beleivable. Epic hasnt really elaborated on the Kantus, so the possibility is always there. I also noticed Joveus, that you noted that the latter directly contradicts statements from two Epic developers. Which two statements, exactly?

[Joveus]

Just finished reading TAO Devil's Locust theory and I find his explanation of the Kantus quite beleivable. Epic hasnt really elaborated on the Kantus, so the possibility is always there. I also noticed Joveus, that you noted that the latter directly contradicts statements from two Epic developers. Which two statements, exactly?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking. You've read my thread and posted in it a few times, and you've seen the following from Dave Nash and Jim Brown - the two Epic developers I'm on about;

Without giving away too much of the story, the Locust know english because they are former surface-dwellers.

The back story is that sires were imulsion miners... the first to be mutated by it. The gov't rounded them all up to study them and find out what was causing it, and perhaps find a cure. This occurred at the outpost that you guys visited in Gears 2.

(Myrrah is) a descendant of the scientists who first studied imulsion-infected miners at the outpost in G2.

Think of the sires as locust 1.0... or 0.5 or something. We've only really hinted at it, but if you pay close attention to origins and rude awakening in G2, you can pick up on some of this stuff. Also, just think about what the word 'sires' means in the traditional sense.

When the COG found out that people who worked with imulsion over the long term began to have ill effects, they rounded them up at the super-secret base that you were able to see around the middle of G2. Eventually, some of the scientists took most of the subjects up to mount kadar, thinking they would be killed when the COG found out about the crazy mutations and what not that imulsion causes. Remember, the video from niles said something like "save the children.. that's basically what we're trying to do". It's the children of the miners they're talking about. The scientists thought they might be born mutants and that the gov't would want to kill them. They were sealed inside of Mount Kadar, and nobody heard from them for a long, long time...

Without spelling it all out, let's just say that the sires were the first warning that people could become affected/infected by imulsion. The COG didn't want that to get out to the general public, so they took all of the people who were showing signs of this out to the kadar outpost from G2 (new hope facility). Things didn't go well for some of those subjects, and most of you ended up shooting THEM with a shotgun. But the scientists ditched that place long ago and took a large group up of the "test subjects" to kadar, as was shown in that video marcus & dom watched in the rude awakening chapter. Remember, he said they were saving the children. They thought they could save them by taking them deep inside the mountain, never to be found by humans again.

Well we never said how long ago everything that went down at the outpost was, but that place was in pretty bad condition, so one might draw the conclusion that these happened many many years ago.

Couple points re: your theory

Conspecificity (spelling?) is an interesting theory, but if you read the books, you'll find that the lambent infection has crossed the species barrier several times, and is affecting sea life, livestock, even dogs.

New Hope is significantly older than Adam Fenix, and his career path is well documented in the supporting materials (comics, novels).

Marcus's mother (a field biologist) was actually the one to "discover" the Locust, and Myrrah continues the dialogue with Adam after she dies. But Adam is a physicist, so he's not as qualified to figure all this infection stuff out. He often muses about how he wishes his wife were around to help him because he's fumbling in the dark. More detail on this forthcoming in The Slab.

Actually New Hope is significantly older than you're thinking, and at the time of its heyday, Rustlung / Lambency was indeed a super dooper top secret mystery that they were experimenting on and the general population had no idea of its existence.

I mean, they've been quite clear there - New Hope was built to research imulsion effects on miners and their children, the children were moved to Mt. Kadar and became the Locust, and Myrrah is the descendant of the New Hope scientists. TAO Devil's theory was made from the information available at the time, but since then it had been disproven. That's not to say it was a bad theory, far from it, but the contents of it contradict what the Epic guys said - New Hope was not built to combine Kantus and human DNA, the Locust are not failed human-Kantus hybrids, and Myrrah is not the one successful human-Locust hybrid. TAO Devil himself knows that his theory was disproven, and he was fine with it, because theories exist to be disproven and refined. The first draft of this thread was littered with things that were proven wrong.

I'm assuming that you want the Kantus to be the orginal Locust and the builders of Nexus, in accordance with TAO Devil's theory. As you say, Epic has not mentioned the Kantus in any regard, but if you try and incorporate what you wish for with what is already known there can only be one result - New Hope was built to research lambency in humans. This has been stated outright by both Epic developers. That means that the Kantus were not involved at all. When New Hope was shut down and the Locust moved to Mt. Kadar, they found the Kantus and Nexus, which already existed.

Sure, the possibility is always there, and my thread is composed only of what can been heard, seen or found throughout the series, so I won't include speculation one way or the other in the main posts. I can kind of understand your viewpoint though, but I have to ask - considering that Epic have already commented on New Hope, Myrrah, and the Locust, the reason they never mentioned the Kantus is probably because they never thought they were worth mentioning. Why do you want the Kantus to have existed already and built Nexus? It doesn't change anything; the Horde was still formed a century ago, Myrrah is still human, New Hope was still researching Lambency. With all that set in stone, why are you focusing on the Kantus?

[Coleyman]

When New Hope was shut down and the Locust moved to Mt. Kadar, they found the Kantus and Nexus, which already existed.

This also explains how, despite only being underground for ~80 years, the Locust Horde were capable of constructing a massive city filled with intricate structures and technologies. The Kantus had probably built it before the Locust went to Mount Kadar.

[Joveus]

This also explains how, despite only being underground for ~80 years, the Locust Horde were capable of constructing a massive city filled with intricate structures and technologies. The Kantus had probably built it before the Locust went to Mount Kadar.

A popular idea. Not one I agree with, but if Judgment or something else down the line confirms it then I'll gladly accept it. Until then, I'd rather accept Nexus looking older than it is than the, what I believe to be, deeply unlikely coincidence of the New Hope scientists fleeing into a mountain and stumbling across Nexus by chance.

[Golden Locust]

Probaly the best topic i've seen soo far on these forums. I always knew that the Locusts were humans mutaded by some kind of pre-Gears 3 emulsion and that locusts like Brumaks and Wretches were here for a very-long time. But the way you picked the informations is just awesome.

[GeneralGreasy]

I'm assuming that you want the Kantus to be the orginal Locust and the builders of Nexus, in accordance with TAO Devil's theory. As you say, Epic has not mentioned the Kantus in any regard, but if you try and incorporate what you wish for with what is already known there can only be one result - New Hope was built to research lambency in humans. This has been stated outright by both Epic developers. That means that the Kantus were not involved at all. When New Hope was shut down and the Locust moved to Mt. Kadar, they found the Kantus and Nexus, which already existed.

I know, I fully understand that the Kantus had no involvement in the creation of the Drones and I never beleived the Human-Kantus hybrid theory anyway.

Why do you want the Kantus to have existed already and built Nexus? It doesn't change anything; the Horde was still formed a century ago, Myrrah is still human, New Hope was still researching Lambency. With all that set in stone, why are you focusing on the Kantus?

I never denied that New Hope researched Lambancy, Myrrah being human or any of whats been already laid out though

Personally I dont mind if it changes anything or not, Ive accepted this new information from The Slab as fact. I've made this clear a few times in my past posts. As for the Kantus, its just curiosity. I think it'd be interesting if they where down there all this time, thats all. That and we know so little about them. But I guess like you said, if EPIC feels that they're not worth elaborating on, so be it.

Sorry if I come off as condescending

[Joveus]

Sorry if I come off as condescending

No, it's me. If you go back through all my posts you'll find I'm like a broken record when it comes to this - the Kantus and the age of Nexus have been brought up so often and by so many different people that I go in circles, repeating the same thing about once a month. I think the reason I find myself confused by it is because of its speculative nature, there's no more evidence that the Kantus built Nexus than the Tickers did it. Sure the Kantus look different from the Drones, but so do the Boomers and the Berserkers.

I guess what I'm saying is that the Kantus physiology and abilities are in one hand as group A, and Nexus and it's age and architecture are in the other hand as group B. While both are interesting on their own, separately, I can't find anything that links these two concepts together, and I don't know why people keep trying to. I need some sort of link; Kantus engravings on the walls of Nexus, an old Kantus language that predates New Hope, something, anything, that can connect them. Without it, the idea that the Kantus built Nexus is no more valid, in my mind, than Imulsion being Lifestream (see Final Fantasy VII) or something equally outlandish.

Maybe that shines some light on the way my mind works...

[Mysterion Rises]

Said this so many time to u joveus the Kantus were brought into the gears universe to give us something else to shoot. I have said so many times your theory is water tight so I don't disagree with anything it's just it seems so many people are constantly believing the Kantus built everything in the hollow

Gears 2 brought us the Kantus and bloodmounts! These enemies were brought in so we had something new to kill much like the leviathan, the rift worm, Skorge etc! Gears 2 also gave us the locust origin and the reason why the locust emerged, the lambent!

The Kantus like every other locust are all from new hope

[taffenaff]

lol I was google translating "Dire" to swedish. and i misspelled it to "sire" and the results was "pappa" as in dad.

I was like ooooooooooooohhoohooooo now I totaly get it

[Dark Knight Rises]

This thread was worh reading.

[N1ssassa]

This is brilliant, and obviously spot on based on the sources sited throughout. <3

[FURRYGOOSE]

This is just fantastic. I feel refreshed after reading this much about my favourite game. Excellent!

[XxXS3lfm4d3XxX]

You always surprise me man!!! We all appreciate the work you put in your threads.

[Mr shWo]

you all do realize the series is over if this is true

[The Shrike]

you all do realize the series is over if this is true

How so? Unless you mean a sequel to Gears 3 featuring the Locust?

[Coleyman]

you all do realize the series is over if this is true

It is true. The amount of evidence and knowledge we have concerning the Locust and Lambent at this point pretty much makes it irrefutable. Furthermore, Epic have implied at numerous points that the community 'has pretty much figured it all out' (obviously with regards to the Locust origins, Myrrah and their connections to the Lambent).

I don't see how this kills the series. If anything, it adds strength to the themes of the Locust; filling in that gaping plothole of 'mysterious aliens underground that went unseen for years despite humans drilling into the planet'. That was probably the weakest thing about Gears' story until Joveus' thread: the fact that the Locust's sudden appearance was wholly incompatible with Seran humans' behaviours. They should have discovered them (assuming this thread were non-existant/false), but the fact that they were only there for ~80 years makes their origins believable.

[Joveus]

I actually like that the Locust have human origins. In a way, it makes them more alien.

One of the major complaints when I first started was that the Locust coming from New Hope took away from their alien, monster-like nature. I disagree. This isn't critical in any way (just getting that in there at the start), but take the Soul Killers Codex as an example. Very fine story, nothing against any of the authors, but writing stories about the Locust will almost inevitably humanise them. In the process of creating their world of Priestesses, Worms and Kantus religion, they've made the Locust and their society incredibly human. It's almost unavoidable - how do humans write a truly alien civilisation without giving them human elements? I use the Soul Killers as a Gears universe example, but look at Greg Bear's Forerunner trilogy of Halo novels - the more you explore an alien culture, the more human it becomes.

And this isn't a bad thing, if anything it draws parallels - different species share similar natures. But in the case of the Locust we want them to be ruthless, we want them to be scary, and we want them to be alien in nature. In the same way that the Xenomorph from Alien became a lot less interesting once Prometheus came out, the only way to keep the Locust as monsters is not to explore them at all.

The Locust and the COG started from the same place - but compare the different paths they took in 100 years. In the process of exploring the origins of the Locust, their inhumanity becomes all the more apparant. So the Locust came from New Hope. So the Locust had human origins. It detracts nothing from the inhumane nature of the Horde - if anything it adds to it.

[sH4k3nB4ke]

Joveus, I have a question. Before I asked if what I had wrote in a post was a good representation of the "Evolutionary Family Tree of Locust and Lambent", but it got deleted when a couple pages had to be deleted in the past. Now, I can't seem to put my finger on this key aspects of the tree:
1.So are there two ways of creating humanoid locust (Drones, Kantus, Boomers, Berserkers)? I've thought it's either a Humans prolonged exposure with imulsion mixed with genetic experimentation at New Hope that creates sires, which are then used to create the humanoid locust...But I know theres also "Processing" that the locust do to help speed the process of breaking humans down and building them up again into the humanoid locust. I can't remember what happens when, though, or even if those things happen the way they do. Could you make a step-by-step "How to make Humanoid Locust for Dummies" response, please?

[Coleyman]

Joveus, I have a question. Before I asked if what I had wrote in a post was a good representation of the "Evolutionary Family Tree of Locust and Lambent", but it got deleted when a couple pages had to be deleted in the past. Now, I can't seem to put my finger on this key aspects of the tree:
1.So are there two ways of creating humanoid locust (Drones, Kantus, Boomers, Berserkers)? I've thought it's either a Humans prolonged exposure with imulsion mixed with genetic experimentation at New Hope that creates sires, which are then used to create the humanoid locust...But I know theres also "Processing" that the locust do to help speed the process of breaking humans down and building them up again into the humanoid locust. I can't remember what happens when, though, or even if those things happen the way they do. Could you make a step-by-step "How to make Humanoid Locust for Dummies" response, please?

See Joveus' comments from earlier in the thread:

Myrrah does make Drones, but it doesn't go;

Human + Processing = Drone

Instead it's more like;

Human + Processing = Lobotomized, braindead human.
Lobotomised braindead human + controlled imulsion exposure = Lobotomised braindead Lambent human.
Lobotomised braindead Lambent humans + artifical biotechnological breeding program = Drones.

It's complex, and it's time consuming. That's why it's taken so long for the Locust to make the final push into Ephyra. They lost way too many lives on E-Day, everything since then has been trying to recoup their losses while fighting on two fronts.

[sH4k3nB4ke]

See Joveus' comments from earlier in the thread:

ok thanks.

[GeneralGreasy]

I really hate to beat a dead horse, but recently I've made an interesting thought regarding Locust reproduction:

The Slab states that Imulsion exposure causes sterility in living creatures with each generation. Joveus has stated that the Drones do not reproduce by raping Berzerkers, but rather process the humans into more Locust. He also did an interesting physical analysis on the Kantus and Berzerkers and pointed out that they have many similar physical traits. Heres what I think:

The Drones cannot reproduce with Berzerkers because they are "incompatable" so to speak, and thus must rely on processing Humans (Maybe because Humans are genetically closer to Drones) I may be taking a shot in the dark here, but I think that Berzerkers are female Kantus, which is why Drones cannot reproduce with Berzerkers. Now this is going soley off of physical apperances. However we've seen what Imsulion does to living creatures: it mutates them at a genetic level and turns them into something completely diffrent (A monkey into a 50ft tall Dinosaur monster in the case of a Brumak). I beleive that this "getting mutated into something diffrent" made the Kantus diffrent from the Drones and thus a diffrent biology (Im willing to bet money a Brumak's anatomy is nothing like that of it's Ape predecessor)

The Kantus where an ancient race*, however as The Slab established, they became more and more sterile over each generation due to the Imulsion. Once the Drones where introduced, the Kantus intergrated them into their society. Also, notice how you see less and less Kantus in each game. Its possible that the flooding of The Hollow killed a majority of them off. Also notice how you dont see any Berzerkers (un-infected) in Gears of War 3? If Im correct (which Im prolly not), the Kantus where unable to reproduce and thus where going to die out anyway even if the Imulsion Countermeasure device wasnt activated.





*Recently I've been thinking about Niles Sampson's quote from Gears 2 "Did they know what was waiting for them under Mount Kadar?". I may be reading too much into it, but to me that implies someone or something was down there beforehand.


Well, theres my pot-shot theory.

[Mysterion Rises]

I really hate to beat a dead horse, but recently I've made an interesting thought regarding Locust reproduction:

The Slab states that Imulsion exposure causes sterility in living creatures with each generation. Joveus has stated that the Drones do not reproduce by raping Berzerkers, but rather process the humans into more Locust. He also did an interesting physical analysis on the Kantus and Berzerkers and pointed out that they have many similar physical traits. Heres what I think:

The Drones cannot reproduce with Berzerkers because they are "incompatable" so to speak, and thus must rely on processing Humans (Maybe because Humans are genetically closer to Drones) I may be taking a shot in the dark here, but I think that Berzerkers are female Kantus, which is why Drones cannot reproduce with Berzerkers. Now this is going soley off of physical apperances. However we've seen what Imsulion does to living creatures: it mutates them at a genetic level and turns them into something completely diffrent (A monkey into a 50ft tall Dinosaur monster in the case of a Brumak). I beleive that this "getting mutated into something diffrent" made the Kantus diffrent from the Drones and thus a diffrent biology (Im willing to bet money a Brumak's anatomy is nothing like that of it's Ape predecessor)

The Kantus where an ancient race*, however as The Slab established, they became more and more sterile over each generation due to the Imulsion. Once the Drones where introduced, the Kantus intergrated them into their society. Also, notice how you see less and less Kantus in each game. Its possible that the flooding of The Hollow killed a majority of them off. Also notice how you dont see any Berzerkers (un-infected) in Gears of War 3? If Im correct (which Im prolly not), the Kantus where unable to reproduce and thus where going to die out anyway even if the Imulsion Countermeasure device wasnt activated.





*Recently I've been thinking about Niles Sampson's quote from Gears 2 "Did they know what was waiting for them under Mount Kadar?". I may be reading too much into it, but to me that implies someone or something was down there beforehand.


Well, theres my pot-shot theory.

Interesting post but the locust are without a doubt from new hope! However old new hope is determines how old the locust race is! In regards to the kantus I believe they where introduced to give us more diversity in amongst the locust race or as Marcus would say "down here something else to shoot" I honestly don't think they have any history I think the purpose of the kantus was to show how similar the locust were to humans as they are monks and they worship the rift worm as a religion!

Ur comment about what Niles said had me wondering for so long what he ment by that too! I don't know if its referring to the lambent or an execution as these "subjects" were banished underground! This theory joveus has created using all the available intel is probably as close as we could get in regards to the locust origin

Good post tho dude

[SenatorIvy]

I've got so many things to talk about with this that I've actually started making notes as I read through it.

In regard to locust breeding, there are a couple things that I'd like to talk about.

In the early media we are told that the Berserkers are the only female locust, and that they breed by rape. I have always taken this to be not hard fact, but rather hearsay based on the game's presentation to us as members of the COG army.

Imagine this scenario:

There's 20 of us on some routine inspection of an area that's been reporting weird disturbances, and when we arrive a hole bursts out of the side of a hill and 10 monster looking guys come out with crazy guns and one-word vocabularies. All generally human-sized and all on initial inspection male. We all are shocked naturally and a battle ensues. During this battle a giant-ass terrifying bone-carapaced crazy thing runs out of the hole and straight for us, making a comparatively high-pitched shriek as it barrels toward us. Out of the 20 of us in this group there will certainly be a class clown type who, as one of us stands with our foot on a freshly dead enemy, will see the berserker coming and say something along the lines of "oh ***** it's the wife!"

This line delivered at the height of our battle's adrenaline rush will be solidified in our memories as an amusing point, and we will all tell everyone else we know in the COG about it. As this story disseminates amongst the ranks it will become more and more diluted, until the point where finally someone that is several tiers removed from our regiment/combat position will take away nothing more from the anecdote beyond "the big ones are the women."

In a similar fashion, as more berserkers are seen in combat being initially lead about in chains, etc questions will arise from soldiers watching nervously from the distance hoping the Locust don't see them and attack. Questions like "if that's the woman, how do they do it?" someone a little less class-clowny and a little more creepy will likely suggest "maybe that's what the chains are for." After this exchange a similar game of military telephone will occur and this so-called "information" that not only are the berserkers the women, but the men need to chain them down to mate will spread around until not only will everyone in the COG will think that it's common knowledge that the berserkers are women and are used like mares to breed, but they will also fail to question it generally later on.

Baird is not one of these types though, as is revealed by his journal and dialogue wherein he advises if we look empirically at what we're given, it doesn't necessarily support that assumption. Of course the real issue is that for the common Gear on the ground, it doesn't matter if the berserker is a woman or not, as that has no combat or survival bearing on him, so there's no impetus to correct misinformation that does no harm.




My second idea is in regard to how locust are created via "processing." I'm all about the whole Strogg style "we take you and make you into some kind of monster" thing, because it's horrifying and makes for a good story. However I feel that this seemingly thread-established idea that part of the processing of a human into a locust involves a Session 9/Cuckoo's Nest level lobotomy is misguided. I understand that jacked-up Maria's art description shows that she's been lobotomized, and also that immulsion exposure makes things sterile, however it's not said the percentage of sterility that it creates or that it creates it immediately. I think that it is likely that the Locust breed by rape because consensual sex seems to have too many requirements to lend itself well to a murderous race of chud monsters with guns building an army. I don't think that it's likely that a lobotomy is step #1 to making a blank person for a Locust drone. I think it's more likely that of all the prisoners the Locust take, perhaps the ones that they plan on using in a similar fashion to how the COG enlists fertile women are the ones that receive lobotomies, so that they will be more pliant to the usage of however many procedures it takes for the Queen's scientific/biochemical/genetic engineering knowledge to prepare the captive human for use as a Locust breeder. Once they're suitable for that purpose, perhaps then the rape comes into play. The Locust come from human stock; I find it odd that they would have the urge to murder to live, yet not the urge to procreate to live; I understand perhaps the imulsion fumes are making them a bit loopy in their sex drives, but the idea that they would reverse their human tendencies to caveman-out and want to spread their seed by dominating the smaller women as opposed to risking their lives attempting to mate with a blind violent berserker with seemingly no easily accessible genitalia seems unlikely.

And in regard to the Kantus fiasco, I won't comment on the religious aspects of their being and whatnot, as the Locust culture and architecture is a topic for later posts I'm sure, but when it boils down to the similarities in physiology of the Kantus to the Berserker, or the Drone to the Boomer, etc etc, I think that perhaps the simple answer to some of these conflicts is the idea that the scientists of New Hope facility would certainly have gone through thousands of experiments leading to various branched corridors and dead ends in their search for a cure for rustlung (and its further state, lambency) and surely as time went on under Mount Kadar further experiments lead to extended knowledge of the evolutionary and mutagenic/teratogenic processes of the infection. Perhaps when it comes to the "processing" that apparently produces new Locust, the details of the actual "processing" will vary not only by the genetic makeup of the subject that it's being forced upon, but also by the desired result. Certainly after the scientists, the children, and the rest of the New Hope test subjects fled to the hollow to avoid being offed by the COG gubmint, they would have had to establish a rationale not only to continue living in hiding (when it could be argued that their eventual fate is clearly worse than death anyway) but to also continue to undergo the experimentation of scientists that now truly have no one to answer to. As time went on and their lives above ground faded into memory, perhaps a culture developed that saw the changes brought about by the rustlung parents/genetic lambency disease not as something that needed to be cured, but rather as something that needed to be honed, which is what lead to the creation of the processes that would allow for the breeding of what we see as separate races of Locust (Kantus, Drone, Theron, etc) Any group isolated will being to think that qualities shared amongst them are normal; look at online forums :v the Locust are no different.

It's my opinion that how I've got these couple details thought out here seems to make the most sense in filling in a couple of the more glaring plot holes that people need solved.


The Gears story is like Prometheus; people got together and said "hey man! remember ALIENS?!" and then you go "YEAH!" and then they go "we know you've got a couple questions about some of the backstory, so we're finally gonna answer 'em! GET READY!" and then we all went to the theater thinking "man, I can't wait to find out exactly what the xenomorphs are! This'll be cool!" and then at the start of the movie Ridley Scott comes out and says "finally we will answer the most pressing question on all Alien fans' minds: ... Who WAS that guy in the weird space telescope?"

And we all slap our foreheads, because while the engineers are an interesting idea, for the purposes of the movie, anything beyond "they are people that died by the alien. You shall join them if you don't play your cards right" is neither here nor there.

Either way, this is a great thread. So much stuff outlined and answered.

[Joveus]

If you've followed the thread this far you've probably realised that it's difficult to come up with any answers more than we already have without going to extremes. I find myself constantly straddling the fine line between the history of the fiction and the history of the series itself. Where I can I try to incorporate both, but the fiction information, the "canon", takes priority in my mind. Of course, what the "canon" is can change on any given day, like the Kantus turning up in Judgment, but that's something different entirely. In a nutshell, I use today's "canon" to argue my points, even if tomorrows "canon" makes today's wrong.

The Drones cannot reproduce with Berzerkers because they are "incompatable" so to speak, and thus must rely on processing Humans (Maybe because Humans are genetically closer to Drones) I may be taking a shot in the dark here, but I think that Berzerkers are female Kantus, which is why Drones cannot reproduce with Berzerkers. Now this is going soley off of physical apperances.

The Berserker section of the Destroyed Beauty booklet that came with the Limited Edition of Gears of War 1 says "Genetic analysis reveals this to be the female version of the Drone.". So there you go, Berserkers are not female Kantus, problem solved. But then again, the Kantus had not been created at the time Destroyed Beauty was written and considering that the original model of the Kantus became the Palace Guard, nailing down what exactly the Berserkers are is slightly difficult. Now we can either take Destroyed Beauty word for word, that is the Berserker is the female version of the Drone, and only the Drone, leaving the door open for female Kantus and female Boomers. Or you can look at the production of the series itself and try to incorporate the model development of the Kantus into the picture, in which case the Berserker is not the female version of the Drone specifically, but the female version of the Locust. Considering the physical differences between the Berserker and all the male classes, it is not at all unrealistic that the Berserker is the female Drone, Boomer and Kantus all in one, and could mate with all three, sterile or not.

So there's my answer to your first bit - I believe the Berserker is the only type of female Locust and (if it could give birth) it would pop out a mini version of whatever it mated with.

On to part two - the Niles quote.

“I ask you, how else do we secure our future? What is a culture without hope? It’s a shame. A dirty, rotten shame. // Did they know what was awaiting them inside Mount Kadar? Did they deserve what we did to them? Should we be punished? // When we are fully cleansed, and the truth comes forth, will we listen? … will we listen? Will we… listen? Listen… listen… listen.”
- Niles AI (Gears of War 2 – Act 3, Chapter 3: Rude Awakening)

I find this quote very, very interesting for one simple reason - it only makes sense if the Niles AI knows what happened to the children inside Mount Kadar. Now that's worth thinking about for a moment. How would the Niles AI know what was waiting inside Mount Kadar? And what does it mean by "what we did to them"? Only two options are possible;

1 - People from New Hope went to Mount Kadar before evacuating the facility, found something horrible, then came back out again, went back to New Hope and told the Niles AI what was in there, then took the children underground anyway, or;
2 - Someone went back to New Hope after the subjects were took down there, and the Niles AI found out what happened that way.

If the first option is correct, if New Hope found the Kantus, then took the children down there and interbred with them, then Niles quote still doesn't make sense. Why "should we be punished?" for that? Unless the scientists found that the Kantus were a bunch of blood-thirsty killers, in which case the Niles AI is right to be ashamed. But then that doesn't make sense either, because if the scientists knew the Kantus were down there already and still took the children down there, it could only be because the Kantus accepted them into their society in some way, especially since they're clearly still around 100 years later.

So then it must be the second option - the Niles AI knew just as much as the real Niles when the children were took into Mount Kadar - that is, nothing. But if the Kantus were down there already, then we run into the same problem; "should we be punished?" doesn't factor into the equation, and "did they deserve what we did to them?" doesn't make any sense. Did they deserve being welcomed by a race of subterranean reptile-men? Should we be punished for embracing their hokey religion and allowing their society to prosper underground? And the bit that makes the least sense is how or why did someone, or someones, then leave Mount Kadar only to travel back to New Hope and inform the Niles AI of what they'd found.

The only way the Niles AI quote makes any sense is if something bad happened inside Mount Kadar, and that the New Hope scientists were responsible or complacent with that badness. But then we run into the same problem - how did the Niles AI find out what happened down there? The only people that went to New Hope in the 100 years after the evacuation were Stranded... and Locust. Dom asks Marcus what the Locust were doing at New Hope, especially since they had to blow a hole in the back of the facility to gain access. I think the answer should be pretty clear - they were destroying the evidence, the Sires and anything that could tie New Hope to Nexus. But we already know that the Drones come from New Hope, so no need to delve into that.

New Hope is abandoned. The Niles AI is left in the dark for almost a century. Then E-Day. The Locust emerge. Eventually they go to New Hope. Of course they do, Myrrah knows full well where the Locust come from. The Niles AI sees the Locust arrive at the facility and thinks, "These guys look familiar... Uh-oh, what have we done? We're responsible for this". And down in her palace Myrrah stews in anger and thinks "Yes, yes you are". The only way the Niles AI has any idea what happened in Mount Kadar is because he saw the Locust and recognised their own handiwork.

Which brings me to his last line - "When we are fully cleansed, and the truth comes forth, will we listen?" - What else could that possibly mean but cleansed of lambency? He can't mean cleansed of the Kantus influence or Nexus. If you read his lines it only makes sense if he is talking about what the scientists took down there with them. When he says "did they know what was awaiting them inside Mount Kadar?" he is not talking about anything organic or structural that they found - he is talking about the years of torture and mutation and abuse those children had waiting for them for the sake of fixing a "culture without hope", as he says "it's a shame. A dirty rotten shame."



... These things always end up way too long...

[SenatorIvy]

I still think the most logical explanation for locust "processing"/breeding would be that captured women are the ones that are "processed" to birth Locust. Why else would they spend so much time emphasizing the "birth defects" aspect of lambency/locustism? I think it would be the most efficacious method of troop population to have the first tier of Locust made be spawned from adjusted human women who had been rendered docile as opposed to ones that had been transformed into ravaging beasts. Then, in keeping with the "we are what you are" aspect, any woman who becomes barren from her participation in the Locust breeding "factory"/exposure to lambency would become a berserker and be sent to the front lines, much in the same way the COG send barren women to fight.

Certainly from an experimental standpoint, the New Hope scientists that went underground would have surely had slightly-augmented women that were giving birth to increasingly crazy creatures long before they had some sort of process to make a berserker; if they were studying lambency and whatnot's effects on humans, there would have been actual humans affected before there were insane blind ragebeasts that destroy everything around them.

[Mysterion Rises]

I still think the most logical explanation for locust "processing"/breeding would be that captured women are the ones that are "processed" to birth Locust. Why else would they spend so much time emphasizing the "birth defects" aspect of lambency/locustism? I think it would be the most efficacious method of troop population to have the first tier of Locust made be spawned from adjusted human women who had been rendered docile as opposed to ones that had been transformed into ravaging beasts. Then, in keeping with the "we are what you are" aspect, any woman who becomes barren from her participation in the Locust breeding "factory"/exposure to lambency would become a berserker and be sent to the front lines, much in the same way the COG send barren women to fight.

Certainly from an experimental standpoint, the New Hope scientists that went underground would have surely had slightly-augmented women that were giving birth to increasingly crazy creatures long before they had some sort of process to make a berserker; if they were studying lambency and whatnot's effects on humans, there would have been actual humans affected before there were insane blind ragebeasts that destroy everything around them.

Are u saying basically Maria could have been one of these females who was to endure or as we have seen in the game did endure this processing method ie lobotomised?

But then again this processing method hasn't exactly been explained correctly as we know Baird was also captured and would have have been "processed" so therefore I don't think this processing method that was mentioned has anything to do with human females! We still have unanswered questions as to why Maria was lobotomised and what exactly was this "processing"!!!!

But u have made a good theory on locust offsprings being born by human females but I don't think the term "processed" that we have heard so much is referring to this I believe this is a method of transforming humans into locusts by direct imulsion exposure. There was a paragraph in the slab I think that Prescott mentioned saying that the locust had to repopulate their numbers being one of the reasons that after 14-15 years of fighting they couldn't finish the war! I think this was saying that the locust had to process more humans to keep their numbers up in order to continue this war. Direct imulsion exposure would lead to mutation and that would take some time.

[SenatorIvy]

I feel there's probably several different methods/outcomes that fall under the heading of "processing" when it comes to the Locust side. Depending on where it was heard from Baird's side, it could even refer to a more benign sense of "take this group of prisoners to location X so we can sort them out." But yeah, it's not delved into enough for much to be concrete really, so that's why I try to extrapolate as to what would make the most sense.

Prescott talking about the Locust need to repopulate their numbers doesn't necessarily provide that he knows how they do it, just that as the war goes on he would realize as a tactician that the enemy is having issues with their population.

The humans-as-augmented-birthing-units fits in with the emphasis on the teratogenic properties of lambency, as well. Even though the Locust have become a culture over the years, they are one born of mutation and increasing genetic defects. It's presumed that sometime back in the day the scientists of New Hope would have stopped seeing their work as trying to cure lambency for humans and started seeing it as protecting/furthering the cause of their increasingly monstrous menagerie of "children", so the idea that at some point in time the first thing that popped out of an experiment was a Berserker and a scientist said "perfect! This blind rage creature is just the thing we need to knock out some more kids and keep this underground party going" isn't supportable. The egg came before the chicken because what we know as a chicken came from something before it. The locustifying process would have to be an evolutionary one at first to provide for the initial numbers of Locust for population growth. Later on perhaps there were corners cut in the development of new methodology to attempt to repopulate their troop ranks, but certainly if their entire lineage is based on human experimentation, mutations, and increasingly problematic birth defects, the rate at which they would have to throw crap at the wall to see what sticks would easily outrun their available population given that growing sterility is also the clock against which they run.

[GeneralGreasy]

I find the whole idea of Locust raping human women to reproduce rather disturbing. Interesting theory though, SenatorIvy.

[SenatorIvy]

Seems more likely than doing that to their own, really. There's just no way that a group of scientists went "we have to make something that can allow us to continue making our 'children'" and then decided they were successful when a berserker was the result.

[Mysterion Rises]

Seems more likely than doing that to their own, really. There's just no way that a group of scientists went "we have to make something that can allow us to continue making our 'children'" and then decided they were successful when a berserker was the result.

I'm not sure if ur implying that the scientists at new hope created the locusts and the different types of locusts, but the locusts are the children of rustlung infected humans! The scientists were trying to find a cure for these "children" and with the collectable we found in gears 2 which informed us about Ruth and her mutation into a berserker it's clearly obvious that these scientist were not creating anything! I highly doubt locusts raped female humans but I can understand the theory locusts raped berserkers I mean imagine trying to mate with that beast my god lol

I guess that explains the chains around the berserker arms

[SenatorIvy]

The scientists who were trying to "save the children" would no doubt be continuing their work when they were under Mount Kadar; if the Queen is a descendant of the New Hope scientists and "the Queen makes Drones" then it's definitely not a jump to see that the Locust are engineered after a fashion. With the eventual growing sterility and the nature of random mutation, concerted effort would be necessary to maintain mutations within a usable gamut. Otherwise they'd probably end up with a low proportion of "usable" Locust compared to the amount of non-beneficial mutations that would be turned out by the randomness of the damaged genetics of the parental lineage. Not to mention that the past 100 years of Locust certainly aren't only 2nd generation creatures either way, so we see there would have to be some control/influence over their growth.

Also is it the case that Ruth was a berserker? I only remember it mentioning that her nails grew like claws and her skin hardened, which seems to describe every Locust. In regard to the chains around the berserker in the first Gears, it would seem that they'd need chains for any guidance of the berserker due to its limited sight and violent nature. It doesn't make sense that if the scientists were hands-off on the direction of Locust evolution and only concerned with a "cure" that there would be any Locust beyond berserkers; certainly if Ruth became a berserker and the scientists were only interested in curing the affliction they wouldn't have been breeding anything out of their test subject.

Scientist 1: "her skin has hardened and her fingers are like claws now."
Scientist 2: "yes, it is most unfortunate, the poor thing."
Scientist 1: "Indeed. I hope we can find a cure for this terrible disease and its effects soon."
Scientist 2: "Damn the COG and their exiling us here! We could have had this cured by now if we only had the proper resources, I know it!"
Scientist 1: "..."
Scientist 2: "What is it, Steve?"
Scientist 1: "Let's chain Ruth down and let something bang her and see what comes out."

The cult of personality that would be necessary to keep every one of multiple thousand people underground would also eventually fall to an us-vs-them mentality as we see it has throughout the series. In this process of generations (however short or long) the afflictions that made the Locust (or what would come to be called the Locust) different would, once harnessed to a manageable level, be seen not as degenerative defects, but as lauded aspects of the Locust culture. A violent warlike race wouldn't be using its sole rare breeding stock as frontline troops, and as I've outlined with the little playlet there I just don't see how one could maintain the illusion of altruistic New Hope scientists when it's pretty clear that they crossed the line from caring people wronged by their superiors just trying to continue their helpful work to mad scientists well-versed in the depths of their creations, stocking up and bent on revenge.

[U wot m8]

Best thread ever....

[The Shrike]

I just found this but I never realised CliffyB did this Reddit AMA thing a few months ago (back when he was working at Epic obviously)

http://www.reddit.com/r/tabled/comme...sign_director/

The entire thing is an interesting read, but the relevant part to this thread 7 blocks up from the bottom. I quote;

Q: On the Locust queen question. It was the one thing I was disappointed in with the Gears franchise.
A: You can find the answer to this by digging online. The Gears community has basically solved this as well as the origins of the Locust. Also, Karen's books delve into some of this a bit more.

Of course, if you click the question it brings up a discussion amongst the reddit users where they conclude he must be talking about that gamefaqs thread that misquotes the Nastyboy information;

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/99146...war-3/60473916

But to me it really sounds like Cliffy is talking about this thread. Anyone agree?

[Coleyman]

I just found this but I never realised CliffyB did this Reddit AMA thing a few months ago (back when he was working at Epic obviously)

http://www.reddit.com/r/tabled/comme...sign_director/

The entire thing is an interesting read, but the relevant part to this thread 7 blocks up from the bottom. I quote;

Q: On the Locust queen question. It was the one thing I was disappointed in with the Gears franchise.
A: You can find the answer to this by digging online. The Gears community has basically solved this as well as the origins of the Locust. Also, Karen's books delve into some of this a bit more.

Of course, if you click the question it brings up a discussion amongst the reddit users where they conclude he must be talking about that gamefaqs thread that misquotes the Nastyboy information;

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/99146...war-3/60473916

But to me it really sounds like Cliffy is talking about this thread. Anyone agree?

Probably this thread. Just had a quick scan the GameFAQs one, and it doesn't seem to be updated with information from The Slab (or even any novels, for that matter).

Trust me when I say this: Joveus' theory (this thread) is the most definitive explanation of the origins of the Locust and Lambent. I, personally, would call this stuff canon. As far as the inforation goes, it's pretty solid; backed up by in-depth information and sources from Gears canon. When Cliff said that the community had solved it, he almost undoubtedly means this thread.