NG FAQ and pros/cons of both NG and OG

[TheSmugSean]

I'm really confused about new game + I'm level 47 and it feels wayyyy too hard. I don't know when I should go into ng+ and when I do not know when I should go into ng+ it also feels like your items should transfer over from your og

[DarthDuck]

@Sean, From Ruggedland's description, the overall difficulty of the NG sequence levels out in the long run, maintaining the same punch. In the first few NGs however, the difficulty spikes above the overall average (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Question at Rugged or for anyone else relatively deep in NG: Would I be correct to say that any given NG, regardless how how deep you are in the sequence, is hardest in the beginning? (pre-Saydhi)



Also, thank you everyone for your patience so far. I'm in some trouble with a couple overdue projects and can't tend to the OP right now. Please let the discussion play out for another week and then I will do my best to arrange all of the points into the OP with the added benefit of seeing their context in the discussion as it unfolds. Great ideas so far, but I bet we can still go deeper.

[TheSmugSean]

Well how do I get past the first portion if the shade is so hard and I have no money to buy anything. It could just be that I am really bad at the game

[DarthDuck]

Well how do I get past the first portion if the shade is so hard and I have no money to buy anything. It could just be that I am really bad at the game

No you're not bad at the game, you're just being baited by the developers to make an IAP, which I strongly recommend that you do not do because it might make you hate the game later on and discourage you from playing in general (this guilt side effect does not happen to everyone but it does to some people.)

What you can do, assuming that you already have had the recent update, is reset to rebirth 1 from your NG slot, and then delete that slot under character slots. The next time killing Raidriar will cause another NG to appear in your slots. If you hit that green play button on your NG slot you will lock those stats, but if you beat Raidriar again then the stats in that slot will be higher.

If what I just said isn't in the FAQ I will need to add it later (probably not this week sorry), but I would prefer a more eloquent wording from someone who has actually been able to do this. As many times as I see this confirmed by others, I get nervous passing along the recommendation since the same thing corrupted my game pre-patch causing me to need to do a fresh restart.

[ruggedland]

Question at Rugged or for anyone else relatively deep in NG: Would I be correct to say that any given NG, regardless how how deep you are in the sequence, is hardest in the beginning? (pre-Saydhi)

Generally yes. But I seem to notice the titan's speed is still moving up with level, so there could be players who find some titans are harder to deal with at least in the first RB without healing/potion.

[LEANDRO]

the speed is a factor ... I'm on NG^71 and sometimes is hard to follow ... if you make a mistake? then forget it, they'll kill so fast that you would not even see what hit you... that's why your base stats are important but with the level 604 bug cap taking a chunck of them, not to mention to send you back to level 123, it becomes unplayable even for me, which is why I restored my backup from level 600 then played until level 602 and put the game down until they fix it.

[DarthDuck]

the speed is a factor ... I'm on NG^71 and sometimes is hard to follow ... if you make a mistake? then forget it, they'll kill so fast that you would not even see what hit you...

Thank you. This report is evidence toward attack speed being based on enemy level rather than rebirth # or NG^#.

With your best guess, would you say that the increase in attack speed is gradual or broken down into tiers. If in tiers, about how many? (That question goes to anyone.)

[TheSmugSean]

So I just need to level more

[BLADET]

One other thought on OG vs NG. If you plan to play IB2 6-12 months from now (why not if they keep adding new content as they promised), and if you'd like to pursue ever higher GK level or level, then NG is the only way to go (and might even save you some time in the long run). There has to be a cap on GK level in OG (4K, 5k?), and at some point it will become too time-consuming, and even if you can crack every one of his move in theory, a single mistake can kill you. In NG, there is no limit in what you can achieve... I can easily pursue GK level of 20K-30K in my current NG (NG^33) if I take time to master every item to its full, and start using Ring of Man and other goodies against GK. You'll likely see Voice's old IB1 Gk record of 50K fall as well (he did that in NG^100).

I do agree that one, at least in theory, will be able to reach higher GK lvls in NG than OG. I don't think there is a cap on GK lvl in OG for the simple fact that one can chose to play the same type of game play in NG as in OG, that is going for higher rebirths - gillybean has already chosen this path once. meaning that if you stay at NG^33 you too will reach a GK lvl that is time consuming to defeat or can kill you with one hit. sure, then you can just level up and face him with higher stats; the same is true in OG. what I can do now is to simply add ca 5k HP with a gem - and I have 10 of them - but at the price of removing an attack gem and hence losing attack points. but then I would be able to take the hit, only means the fight would take longer.

in this case OG and NG isn't that different; every NG can be seen as a possible OG, with the added profit of higher levels. the benefit of staying in OG, or going for higher rebirths in NG, is a more consistent increse in difficulty (without any choppiness, like one gets when leveling up in NG).

the best solution, imo, based on how the game works today is to introduce better/higher tier gems. this would make it possible to keep climbing in rebirth, in OG and NG, and still be able to never meet a GK that can't kill one with a hit. another solution would be to "force" players into NG - by not providing better gems - once this GK is met, but then they need to do something about the choppiness of difficulty in NG.

[DarthDuck]

I have mixed feelings about the hard gem cap. On one hand I'd like kills to have a higher and potentially unlimited hard cap so that we can keep chasing after them. But on the other it was a lot of work to get my gems near the cap and therefore achieve a state where I would have guaranteed although very slow incremental skill challenges.

I think a good compromise might be if gems from kills capped higher than ones from chests (by 150% or 200%) so that there would be more prestige in having the top gems, and one that couldn't be accomplished from mindnumbingly gaming chests with restore points.

[Buckylastard]

I'm in NG^2 and I accidentally killed thane, so now I'm stuck in the god king stage. Return to last rebirth won't get me back. My question is: if I kill the god king and continue NG^2, will my level "freeze" when I enter NG^3? Or will it continue from when I stop NG^2?

[=Silver=]

Yes, rugged, there must be a cap in OG. I call it convergent gameplay. But the interesting thing is that the cap is limited by your skills, and thus "floating". It's very interesting how this point of convergence constantly moves ahead... This is a real mastering!

I think that this type of convergence must be in NG too

[DarthDuck]

The ability "to enter the next NG" is currently only a privilege for OG. Killing Raidriar will put you in front of a nasty new Shade and without any elemental resistance (or anything for that matter). However, you can keep killing those 3 goons before the GK until you can afford better weapons. Losing to each one will only put you at the beginning of that particular battle, but losing to Raidriar will bring you back to a cutscene and then you fight those three monsters again.

So the good news is you have a safety net preventing you from being officially stuck on the GK. Since it's that hard, you might want to consider at least a few cycles there and get some xp.

The "form ethos" is respecting other approaches and so

then +1 for form ethos

[Buckylastard]

Thanks for the quick reply. It wasn't that I couldn't beat the God King. Anyways, I managed to get through NG^3 now. I'm supposed to be in NG^4, but the beginning is still quite challanging. Furthermore, It seems that I can't level up anymore. My gear won't go past lvl 3... Is this a bug?

[DarthDuck]

Your gear can't go past a third tier of mastery? Is it only with certain items and did you ever "load last rebirth" while on rebirth 1 on a NG?

[Buckylastard]

Yeah I did load last rebirth just now because I couldn't beat the first land in one go. Now the character slot says Rebirth 2^2. I thought it should've been 1^4... Anyways, the gear that I mastered till tier 3 are still tier 3 and can't go up.

[ruggedland]

Same thing happened to me. I think technically the fights from Shade to Saydhi are considered part of the last NG (NG^3 in your case). NG^4 won't start till you kill Saydhi and then you wake up and start RB1 NG^4. This is why you got sent back to last NG (NG^2). Anyway try go thru the sequence. You will get to NG^4 and start remaster items again.

[Farfield]

I got a few questions here:

-The speed of the titans, how is measure ? I read that the ratio of difficult is your level divide for the titan's level i guess. So, what is the way to know how grow up the titan's speed? And therefore, the OG it's harder than NG for the cap level? the titan's ratio it's bigger, right?

Thanks for the replies c:

[ThePowerFuse]

I agree with all of these, that's one of the biggest things I've read
EDIT
Also I think this page should be Stickied
EDIT#2
Also con not being able to sell stuff

[DarthDuck]

EDIT#2 Also con not being able to sell stuff

If it's equally true for NG and OG then it doesn't belong on the list right? That would just a pro or con about the game itself?

[Aussi3]

If it's equally true for NG and OG then it doesn't belong on the list right? That would just a pro or con about the game itself?

If that's true then time consuming shouldn't be on the list that's about the game itself.

[BLADET]

ah when did this thread go sticky?

congrats and thanks all for the comments!

[BLADET]

I do think that one would be one of the top-tier players after just a couple of days playing 15 hours a day...

actually just got a minor shock now when I looked at the GC Leaderboard for GK lvl. out of 220,972 registered players I'm #44 at GK lvl 2,650. L E A N D R O, the highest through the forum confimed player, is #33 at GK lvl 7,050. at #37 and #38 we find DarthDuck and RuggedLand, both at GK lvl 3,850.

surely there are some ppl at high GK lvls not using GC, but based on that information - including the knowledge that the top spots are held by ppl hacking GC and L E A N D R O being the top GK lvl player on the forum - the list goes:

#	PLAYER	GK LVL
1	L E A N D R O	7,050
5	DarthDuck	3,850
6	RuggedLand	3,850
12	BLADET	2,650

also worth to know is that L E A N D R O and RuggedLand is playing in NG while DarthDuck and myself is in OG.

so, at least to me, it's clear one wouldn't need to spend much time playing the game - at least no 15 hours a day - to become one of the "top players" regardless of whether one is playing in NG or OG.

ps. also wondering who Angkor, #34/#2 at GK lvl 5,250, and hirai, #36/#3, at GK lvl 3,950, are. if you guys are already on the forum pls let me know. if you're lurking around but not posting please make yourself known to the rest of us and join the discussions. ds.

edit: and above all there is Voice of Freedom.

[DarthDuck]

As a NG con: "Climbing the GK ladder in NG is much more time-consuming." Fact?

[BLADET]

As a NG con: "Climbing the GK ladder in NG is much more time-consuming." Fact?

NG taken as a whole, yes. since even if one don't master every item every NG, or even go through it in 5 rebirths, eventually one would want to master items and hence use more rebirths before facing the GK. and what would the point of NG be if not to lvl up, which one do through mastering items? in OG, even if I myself have chosen to not meet the GK that often, one can face the GK every 5th rebirth forever. there simply is no reason, related to game mechanics anyway, not to face him.

conclusion: yes, I agree.

[DarthDuck]

I was thinking that the resistance gems are the only "significant" difference between NG and OG, so if you are dual main with the general rule not to use resistance gems unless you really need them then there's no difference. You should get the same sensation of playing through the Zen garden in NG^142 by trying to make it through in OG without setting the resistance gem.

OG Pro?: "You have the unenforced option to play without resistance gems and experience the Zen Garden with the same amount of resistance that you would find at the start of a high NG."

[BLADET]

I was thinking that the resistance gems are the only "significant" difference between NG and OG, so if you are dual main with the general rule not to use resistance gems unless you really need them then there's no difference. You should get the same sensation of playing through the Zen garden in NG^142 by trying to make it through in OG without setting the resistance gem.

OG Pro?: "You have the unenforced option to play without resistance gems and experience the Zen Garden with the same amount of resistance that you would find at the start of a high NG."

I do agree, in the same way it's a con in NG that one need remaster and collect gems/money again, one can chose to remove them in OG to make it even harder.

[DarthDuck]

Going without a resistance gem for your first attempt(s) isn't just about training or showing off but is actually useful when considering that your special meter goes up more if you take elemental damage, even if it's just in DoT incremments. You can have your special triggered by slow poison/light/water/shock damage.

So technically you have a chance to kill them reasonably faster if you try without resistance gems.

[Aussi3]

OG Pro?: "You have the unenforced option to play without resistance gems and experience the Zen Garden with the same amount of resistance that you would find at the start of a high NG."

It sounds like your'e grabbing at straws to get cons and pros now, I'm sorry if that sounded rude but seriously.

[DarthDuck]

When I rewrite the OP I think it would be nice to see how people would consider the same fact to be a pro or a con. If the same thing showed up in all of them I can just divide it out but I think it's ok to see the same fact appear on 2 or 3 of the lists because it will show how people are seeing the same things differently.

grabbing at straws

I did a word search on that and it's about drowning in a river and not being able to climb onto your raft because you're just grabbing at straws—I'm in your debt for the imagery.

[Aussi3]

1. Trying to find some way to succeed, When nothing you choose is likely to work "Jerry, grabbing at straws, searched the backup tapes from last week, looking for the missing files".
2. Trying to find reasons to feel hopeful about a bad situation "She thinks he might still be interested because he calls her now and then but I think she's grabbing at straws.

Also known as Grasping at straws :

Making wild and often times unbelievable assumptions or using far fetched ideas and possibilities to reach the desired conclusion.
The police were trying to make a conviction, but they were just grasping at straws.

[voice of freedom]

I play NG when I need a "break" from playing OG. Which is kinda ironic...

[Farfield]

So, i'm a little confused, the NG is easier than OG? cuz i wanna play as hard as it is possible, i am a slow player (i'm on OG 17) and i read in the forum that the difficult radio depends of the character level and the GK level divided, is that true?

[DarthDuck]

Late OG is more difficult than late NG.

The first 3 or 4 NGs are harder than anything before rebirth 150, but after that NG doesn't stand a chance at being as hard as OG. This is especially true if you are efficient with climbing the GK ladder. Another thing which makes OG harder is that you have to fight increasingly harder bosses each rebirth while often in NG you often don't fight a boss at all and just throw a fight to Thane.

NG's only distinct edge in difficulty is that shield points disappear faster, but I believe that's the only factor. Also, in NG the hardest part of each cycle is the Zen garden because you don't have elemental protection, but that point is cancelled out by the fact that many of us in OG are fighting without resistance gems to keep ourselves sharp and also to insure slightly faster fights due to being able to use the special more often.

[Farfield]

Thanks a lot. I keep going with OG; i will master all the items and i'll try to improve my skill in fight.

[DarthDuck]

I read in the forum that the difficult radio depends of the character level and the GK level divided, is that true?

As far as gauging the difficulty of boss fights, this is a very accurate although not perfect measure of difficulty. If you fight a level 6k Raidriar at level 600, your ratio is 10. If you fight it at level 81, your ratio is 74.

With a ratio of 10 you have 5,000 stat points to spend and with a ratio of 74 you only have 372 stat points to spend. Meanwhile both Raidriar targets have the same strength. Does that explain why higher ratios are more difficult?

[Farfield]

Oh xD now i get it. I can't even imagine how you guys discovered that o.o a last question: How the level of the titans/bosses grows? For example Raidriar: it starts at 150 and then 250, so, it's gradual grow? Or how exactly they level up?

[BLADET]

a last question: How the level of the titans/bosses grows? For example Raidriar: it starts at 150 and then 250, so, it's gradual grow? Or how exactly they level up?

titans level up roughly 5 lvls per rebirth. the Archivist goes up 60 lvls every time you kill Raidriar, MX-Goliath 80 lvls and Raidriar himself 100 lvls. so titan lvl depend on rebirth # (in NG too even tho rebirth # is reset every time you go to the next NG^) while boss lvl depend on GK kills.

[Farfield]

How interesting, so much thanks about the info, it's really helpful to me.

[Laughzxc]

Late OG is more difficult than late NG.

The first 3 or 4 NGs are harder than anything before rebirth 150, but after that NG doesn't stand a chance at being as hard as OG. This is especially true if you are efficient with climbing the GK ladder. Another thing which makes OG harder is that you have to fight increasingly harder bosses each rebirth while often in NG you often don't fight a boss at all and just throw a fight to Thane.

NG's only distinct edge in difficulty is that shield points disappear faster, but I believe that's the only factor. Also, in NG the hardest part of each cycle is the Zen garden because you don't have elemental protection, but that point is cancelled out by the fact that many of us in OG are fighting without resistance gems to keep ourselves sharp and also to insure slightly faster fights due to being able to use the special more often.

Some facts I know about NG+:
1. You need much higher magic to get to better re-cast rate. In NG^5, 100 magic points takes about 43sec to re-cast, 400 takes about 23sec (tested against Thane v3 with resistance gem, no block or dodge or parry at all). In OG 100 magic takes 19sec to recast (what I read from your research)
2. You can choose to advance in NG without mastering everything, which makes NG very hard for Zen garden regardless of NG^? you are in. E.g. I don't know how Voice can beat lvl 5000 shade with bearly character level 600+, seems impossible to me. But I agree Zen garden is always the hardest for NG+ without App Gold.
3. About shield points, you only need 1 shield point left to fully block damage. So a shield regen potion will solve the problem for light, and a parry or taken hit will allow another block for heavy.
4. I believe OG has 372 stats points (not 272). Also, if you compare NG Zen garden with OG GK (which are their hardest fight), OG has more stats points than 372 because:
- NG stats points = base stats points + 5 (attack from sword) + 8 (health from armor) = base stats + 13
- OG stats points = 372 + 2(1 atk and 1 health when level 1) + 245(weapon) + 25(helm) + 100(armor) + 1650+(11 attack gems) + benefits from (80% health heal every 20sec) = 2394+ stats points + benefits
- In addition, in NG, health is used for first 3 fights without healing (you can always get a full health potion after 3rd titan)
- Block is not discussed here because assume weapon is dual for OG
So you can see ratio is not so relevant here because OG has 2394 stats points with level 81 (gives you a high ratio). In NG you probably will have that many stats points with level 400+ (I have 990 stats points at level 172).
If you compare GK ratio between NG and OG, you can only add about 650 stats points for NG (IB + Armor + Helm, they are easy to get), because all round gem slots probably need to be magic gems (if you are lucky enough to get them at all). Also you normally heal probably every 40 sec (not sure how long in high NGs). More on that, about 1/13 stats points need to be in magic for heal to be effective at all (health-attack-magic ratio of 2-10-1)

With respect, I understand OG can get very difficult at high rebirth, but I think high NG is no less (unless you master everything, which will surely take you out of the game before you advance to higher NGs)
Let me know if any of above doesn't make sense. I will be very interested to know.