The Future Of Unreal Tournament

[snorkelbottom]

Okay this thread has gained 4 pages in 2 weeks, so I think now would be a good time to summarise what has been discussed thus far and see how our proposal for a new Unreal Tournament is forming. Not only for those that have posted within the thread, but also for those new to the thread. For more indepth information regarding the elements below, simply read previous posts within this thread...

Customisation

Improved Editor
I think this really goes without saying, although the new UE3 editor makes the development of multiplayer maps easier with features such as Matinee, Cascade, Material Editor etc. a lot of people within the modding community have mentioned the difficultly they encountered when making mods and mutators, an element of the editor that was easier in past incarnations. Essentially, the next editor needs to be user friendly in regards to all areas of the modding community, not just wannabe level designers.
Furthermore, being able to create new assets within the editor (static meshes, textures, sounds, animations etc.) would not only mean that Epic and the modding community would no longer need to use third party software, but it would also encourage the creation of custom content within the community.

Lite Editor
Not a replacement for the editor we all know and love but a second, streamlined editor included along with the standard editor for PC releases, and as an introduction to modding for console releases.
This Lite editor would allow console users to create their own multiplayer maps and mods using in-game assets, while also allowing PC modders and level designers to import their projects to the console market (removing any custom created assets). Because this Lite editor would only use in-game, official assets it would adhere to the strict rules from console manufacturers regarding user created content.

In-Game Customisation
UT3 did allow us to customise the look of our in-game representative, but this feature was very, very basic. The very nature of Unreal Tournament begs for much, much more customisation and choice. Not just in regards to characters and their attire, but also with other elements such as team badges (handy for clans), weapon skins (maybe), weapons, music etc.
Unreal Tournament is, at its heart, a community based game. Hence, encourage the growth and expansion of the games community.


Tournament/Story

In brief, the general opinion is that the tournament should play as a series of ladders that take you from your humble beginnings, through the amateur leagues and all the way to the final match to become the grand champion. Along the way the player should come across rivalries, choices and challenges that allow them to determine their path through the tournament. Such a game plan would allow for a small, competition based cinematic story centered around the players character of choice, as well as gameplay elements that would allow for variation within the gametypes while allowing the player to use credits attained to customise their character/team.
Furthermore, the general feeling that the player should get from playing the game is that of being a participant within a spectator sport - crowds cheering, replays, sponsorships, popularity ratings, player progression, ranks etc.


Core Mechanics & Gameplay

Unreal Tournament needs to evolve to be able to compete against and poache the players from the mass of multiplayer shooters available on the market. The possible inclusion of Melee attacks are likened by many (probably due to Unreal Championship), whereas the idea of reloading weapons is not (yet I feel it is a viable option).
The simple nature of UT's gameplay should be built upon to further create and enhance its principal appeal, that of a competitive, community based, multiplayer shooter with attitude.


Game Modes, Playlists & Matchmaking

A recurring theme became apparent by this point - that unlike UT3, a new Unreal Tournament needs a wide choice and variety of content. Gametypes give players choices on how to play the game in varying ways, thus increasing the longevity of any game. A key way of encouraging the players to keep playing while further encouraging the community element of the franchise would be a custom match editor, in which the player could select from a plethora of options to customise existing gametypes and create new ones.
Furthermore, allowing maps to be playing across multiple gametypes was also mentioned, which would further add to the variety and longevity of a new UT.


UT Flash & DLC

Along with a long discussion about the story elements of the franchise, contributors to this thread have also mentioned two other elements regarding a new Unreal Tournament.
Firstly, there was the mention of the UT Flash Demo, which Epic games have revealed recently. This demo shows UT3 running within adobe flash player, supposedly within a browser. Generally, the general opinion is split as to whether this is a good move or not, but as with all things time will tell. Is this the next logical platform for this community based franchise, or is it a shameless technical showcase and the final nail in the coffin for our beloved franchise.
Finally, the mention of free/paid for DLC commonly appeared, which is no surprise considering the current trend on the consoles. All that can really be said about DLC is that many of the current market leaders encourages the use of "paid for" DLC for many reasons, but some do not. As with a flash UT, only time will tell as to whether or not this is the future way of things, or just a phase.


This thread has become, I feel, a mature and well mannered discussion/proposal as to what we, the fans, want in a new Unreal Tournament. So lets open things up a bit more, what do YOU want in a new Unreal Tournament...

[Henrik]

Well I'd like to say one more thing about Flash. Things change and we must give possibilities such as this a due chance. The only way it would be a "nail in the coffin" is if Epic didn't take it through a proper testing phase and use some UT veterans (of various types, not just competitive, not just casual) to get a feel for how it could be made worthwhile or better. It could be said that this has rarely really been their approach to designing new UT titles and admittedly, could prove fruitless if they chose the wrong people to test. But if done the right way I don't see why a Flash based UT, assuming the technology itself is up to snuff, could not enhance the series rather than damage it.

The tech being there IS at this point in itself a big assumption, so I will leave it at that. I just think the current way of doing things has been worn out and as they say, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. UT is not going to become a mass hit again if they just make it a regular PC game, no matter how great it is.

DLC on the other hand... Paid DLC and UT do not fit together. The bigger thing is this: UT has never had any kind of real working updater. Something that says "v4567 is now available. Update?" and you click it and it actually updates the game without you having to jump through hoops. (something a Flash based copy would probably render completely unnecessary but remember I am not advocating dumping a PC exe based install just because I wouldn't mind seeing a Flash version included as an option.)

Also: Modding has always been one of UT's greatest strengths, if not the greatest, enhancing this with an in-game mod installation interface would be a logical step forward over DLC, as it may mean a short term extra effort to implement, but the long term payoff will be greater as peoples mods would get more visibility, more would play them, and Epic would have to do less overall work to add longevity to the game.

That said, I would of course advise against the "we'll let the community fix the game's problems" type approach. People won't spend time enhancing what does not already have a solid foundation, as we've seen.

[Slowman]

Lets talk about the editing side of UT4 and what is possible in doing in term of development from the user!

I have heard here "customazation", I like that word, in other words it makes posseble for the user to do a lot of stuff with it! Yes!!!

I think UT4 benefit if you can "Buy" stuff done ready to work in UT4 editor most possible done by Epic or by a 3rd party company that can see a profit in this and give the users of UT4 stuff to add in the MODs of the user creator, and from scripts, static meshes, textures, matirials, config players bots setup and etc...

[Coreper]

TBH It's really a shame Epic put GOW over UT, while it's so obvious all the style and action elements from GOW are UT inspired.
Epic already kinda f*ked up business with UT3, by destroying the story and multiple gamemodes.
UT3 is still the best UT imo, but it wouldnt take an expert to see that the modding community got stuck with UT2004 [and even UT99!] and didn't move along to UT3.
The outdated, but extremely powerfull, editor could indeed play its part;
The hard, skill-by-experience-based gameplay probably aswell nowadays. [ a great example of what I mean here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ZtBCpo0eU ]
What else? I don't know, but I do know it's a f*king shame.

As for a new editor... I don't know. It might be a very good solution, making packages easier to use, categorize, modify, etc. For example like the Crysis Editor [for those who know it] [its about one of the few I editors I worked with, besides the UED] it could be very sweet.

I'd love to see a new UT. But face it, could it be possibly be marketed worse than UT3? No.

Perhaps the era of fast paced, high skill required games is over. Maybe we should all move on to auto aim, auto cover and auto health-recovering games like GOW.
Seriously?
I hope not.
If so, I'm out.

EDIT:
And you know what the worst part is?
That the f*king UNREAL engine, is now used in it's latest version in GOW, and not in an UNREAL game. Jesus Epic... Where did you cut off your roots...

[Sly.]

I'd love to see a new UT. But face it, could it be possibly be marketed worse than UT3? No.

Yep. If you think about it, many UT/Unreal-veterans dislike Gears. The marketing move "from the studio that brought you Gears of War" was indeed the worst they could do.

I fully understand you, Coreper. Sometimes I think the same, but I still have hope.

[Coreper]

Oh, I still have hope too, but it's just such a shame the online community for UT3 just crashed...
Just think about the good ol' days of UT99 or UT2004, with over hundreds of good online servers, while there are now rarely 3 or 4 good CTF servers online... (I only play CTF and VCTF).
To recover the damage done with the UT3 mistake, is very hard, especially nowadays.

[snorkelbottom]

Welcome Coreper to the thread. The essence of your post conveys your feelings that Epic have abandoned Unreal and Unreal Tournament in favour of Gears of War. You also stated that many UT fans avoid GOW, therefore I am probably in the majority as I am a big fan of both. IMO the two franchises are different beasts centered around the same key principal - high octane competitive multiplayer with guns. But lets be honest neither are perfect and have their flaws.
Yes UT is the grand-daddy, whereas GOW is the new kid on the block. I can understand yours, and other UT fans loathing towards the GOW franchise, but I beg of you to look at it from an objective, analytical perspective...

UNREAL
The game that started it all off. Shipped to customers this game took us all by surprise with its inclusive editor, revolutionary bot-match mode and a campaign filled with many ideas now considered a staple within the genre.
But yets be honest here, as a single player campaign Unreal never had, and never will have the gravitus of franchises such as Doom, Quake, Halo and F.E.A.R. Lone prisoner from a crashed freighter rescues alien monks from ruthless oppressors doesn't have the same appeal as teleporters to hell, borg-like alien invasion, ancient alien bio-weapon or evil dead little girl in a red dress. Unreal set the foundation for the games that followed it, but if it was ever "remade" using todays technology it would not attract a large player base outside the hardcore fans.

UNREAL TOURNAMENT
We all know that UT originally came into being as an intended add-on pack to Unreal's Bot-Match mode. UT struck a cord with PC gamers at the time, whom desired a competitive multiplayer title that could be played over the internet. At the time of UT's release internet gaming was very much in its infancy, but promised great potential. UT capitalised on this mass want and added to it with the UED. Not only could the players compete against others throughout the world in a custom designed fashion, they could also add to the experience, increasing the games longevity and appeal.
UT was both a happy accident and a calculated marketing campaign. After the immense success of UT Epic licensed their editor to other game companies, creating a profitable and constant source of income that afforded them freedom to pursue the projects they wanted to make, no longer be restricted to projects they needed to make to stay in business.

UNREAL 2
Epics first big mistake. In hindsight U2 can be seen as a technical showcase for Epics "then" new engine and editor. The gameplay was unappealing and uninventive, adding nothing to the vast amount of titles available at the time. The lack of any true multiplayer further emphasises that U2 was nothing more than an appetiser of what was to come.

UNREAL TOURNAMENT 2003/4
Aside from its floaty feeling and arcade game tendencies UT2004 was essentially the last great arena shooter ever. This game was filled with masses of content in every respect and, as usual, came with its accompanying editor. Despite its craziness this game, IMO, is the best arena shooter ever made, giving players a vast variety of gametypes that could be played with a huge choice of characters accross many, many arenas using a vast arsenal of balanced and efefctive weapons.

GEARS OF WAR
The first in the franchise did have a multiplayer element, but it was limited at best, with only a small number of maps, players and gametypes. Furthermore the multiplayer side of GOW was devoid of any bots. What GOW did have was an engrossing, cinematic and action packed campaign that could stand toe-to-toe against the heavyweights offered from other developers. Ultimately GOW gave Epic the one thing that had thus far eluded them - a story-rich, high appeal campaign based franchise.

UNREAL TOURNAMENT 3
With the success of GOW and the new/current engine Epic turned to the franchise that started it all. Mistakes were made in terms of marketing, content, design and approach. The intention was to take the franchise back to its roots in an attempt to recapture the old magic, but the result was a small scale game with very little appeal to the franchises fans and general gaming public. The franchise devolved, when it should have evolved.

GEARS OF WAR 2
Building upon the success of the first game Epic strengthened the franchises story through its campaign and added much better multiplayer support, learning from the mistakes made with UT3. GOW2 showed that Epic understood competitive multiplayer gaming and pathed the way for...

GEARS OF WAR 3
Admittedly the story element of GOW3 is its weakest aspect. Its not terrible, just not as good as the previous two. Where GOW3 really shines is with its multiplayer. The choices available to the player are vast and varied, each enjoyable in their own way. GOW3 has reaffirmed Epics position as the market leader for competive multiplayer gaming, which is in itself the very core of UT. Furthermore Epic continue to support the game, balancing and added to it, making it the best it can be.


Now that Epic have seemingly learnt from their mistakes and realised what gamers want the future looks bright for a new Unreal Tournament. Of course UT will need to evolve beyond its past incarnations to be able to compete, but should never lose its core foundations. As with everything balanced moderation is needed to ensure that a future UT caters to both its hardcore fans and new gamers alike.

Finally, I have noticed some are "hesitant" to delve into detail and elaborate on their ideas. I understand your reservations, I really do, as I too have been burnt by developers that took ideas I proposed and used them, even though they claimed they would not accept said ideas. But Epic games is the one true developer, IMO, that encourages a give and take relationship with its community of fans. Perfect examples were recently seen in GOW3 - Many, many on these forums pleaded and begged for a classic playlist. Last week Epic gave use the Alpha playlist. Many viewed the new Sawed-Off Shotgun as overpowered, shortly afterward the weapon was nerfed. Epic listens to its community, just as we listen to Epic. Think of all they have given us throughout the years, for free (ahem, titan pack). Lets show them the same trust they show us, while voicing our opinions on how we would like see Unreal Tournament return.

[CaliforniaPlayer]

Hello everyone,

I am a frequent UT2k4 player, I don't want to post my full name cuz I already got a slap on the wrist for trying to use it as my Epic Username.
So lets just call me Harry S. of the BadBoyz Gaming Community.

I want to post what I think makes Unreal 2k4 stand out and (to me) overall better then any other 1st person shooter game is the dodge movements , the 2nd bonus jump in 2k4 , and what I enjoy and hope stays the same
in the next Unreal to come is the torjectory of the translocator and Ball in Bombing Run as well. Here is a Demo I did of myself agenst 2 bots to try to show the movements I mean and I hope gives an idea on how uniqe this game REALLY IS !

http://youtu.be/nMgSbyyz14Y

I want to ask and beg Epic to have this kinda Game play in Future Unreal games to come, to this day not 1 game Compares! Almost 10 YEARS later to me its still the #1 first person shooter!

P.S Multi-dodge and Low Gav mutators I think should remain the same as well, whats really needed is more graphics and movement volume areas. I think so anyways , please let me know what ya'll think? Thanks

(I was not satisfied enough with that Stadium Arena map alone so I would Like to post 1 more example I did this morning with 2 bots on masterful, and also
in a very classic map with no doubt this Demo shows what UT should be Like in the Future, To me this is UNREAL!) =D http://youtu.be/9KLt_0mVpKQ

[Sly.]

Welcome Coreper to the thread.[...]

Good post. I still trust Epic but the point is:
They seem to spend more and more time with the Gears franchise whereas the Unreal franchise gets less and less attention. I know that Epic is a company with the goal to make money and atm Gears is their most successful franchise, so I understand their decision, but as a fan of the Unreal franchise I feel somewhat left alone in the darkness with a bunch of other fans.
I surely hope that now that the Gears trilogy (I'm very sure there will be more Gears related games in the future) is done they will focus more on the older franchises.

Btw, Unreal 2 was not developed by Epic themselves, it was developed by Legend Entertainment (which is understandable, Return To Na Pali was a lot of fun!) and licensed by Epic while Epic was focused on fixing UT2003 by creating UT2004.
And even if I'm for the strict separation of Unreal and UT it would be interesting to see a UT-like multiplayer mode in a Unreal 3 (if there will ever be another Unreal that is), but after the U2 flop, we didn't see a original Unreal being released at about the same time as a UT. If you think about it, UT and Unreal went hand in hand. Everytime an Unreal game was released, there was a UT game. UT3 broke this tradition by merging both games with a try to add a story to UT (sadly).

And I believe this is another reason for the success of the previous games: The Unreal game was a promotion for UT and vice versa. UT2004 might have been a special case, especially after the U2 flop, but it had UT2003 which was a "replacement" which seemed to be able to push the flop of Unreal 2 aside and which could still attract people when they heard of the news that a fixed version was in development with much more content and the promised vehicle mayhem.
You must think of it this way: If someone likes a game from the Unreal franchise and becomes a fan, this person would like to check out the other games as well. Relying on one single game might have been a bad move.

I think we should talk about marketing now since this is one of the things that make a UT game successful and "great". Only if the marketing is well made and players buy the game recommend it others, start a chain and more and more people buy it, the game gets a long-time support and if it remains successful for an even longer time, it gets more updates and the community gets more involved (see CliffyB's OWNAGE maps in UT2004, the source code of Unreal 1/Unreal RTNP which was given to the oldUnreal team which develops patches these days and of course UT99 which got four bonus packs, more than any other Unreal Tournament game ever got with a bunch of content about the numbers of UT2004's maps!)

[CaliforniaPlayer]

I want to show many other great example Demos that I have but its a pain trying to get a clear enough video and not have the file be huge in megabytes creating huge laggy run-times.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhPXrrPDDwA

Anyone for show n tell xD enjoy(Just wait tell I find a good one for the map "Skyline") Muhuaha! =D

[Henrik]

Snorkel my main point was that this is a public forum, I am fine with using it in the context of one, not to do other peoples jobs for them. It's not so much an issue of trust or even specific toward Epic since many many individuals and companies read these forums. Plus I think I've been pretty liberal in posting the direction I'd like to see already and in doing so, feel no real need to elaborate any further. You started the thread so I can understand your desire to summarize everything now and then, I feel good that I got my thoughts in early on where they're not just buried but now I'll let some other people have the floor.

I'd also like to state though that I agree there does seem to be a very enthusiastic give and take mentality in the Gears community. There was at some point a similiar feeling in the UT community, and if both sides cared enough that could easily be rekindled. Unlike some I do not pin Epic's seeming "lack of caring" on anything but the fact that as a games studio, they need to explore different things every now and then, just like any creative individual or organization does. They cannot afford to expend their time on a project that is not active, and the time where nurturing offers a sensible return at least financially has come and gone. They cannot help gamers who feel abandoned in any other capacity I'm afraid, that is the job of the gamer themself, maybe a pastor or psychologist.

That doesn't mean I do not believe there are some serious opportunities when it comes to the Unreal franchise, but I don't really have much faith in the idea of the abilities of a thread such as this, as positive as it has been compared to some, to affect Epic's business decisions any more. 10 years ago, when they were hungrily looking for ideas AND they were a much smaller company, yes they probably would have listened intently to this thread. But today they have dudes like Mike Capps and Cliffy B who are by now seasoned vets to guide their every step.

I did say somewhere else on the forums that if anything will reignite the flame for UT it would be positive reinforcement from their fans, what I'm less sure of is that detailing everything out in excruciating fashion is what the doctor ordered, positive or not - as much as saying look - this is a general guideline of what I thought has been missing as of late - as general as I can make it - find a way to use that and still take some creative liberty that makes it fun for YOU again... because I believe that will in turn make it fun for the rest of us. Throw my expectations for a loop when it comes to weapons and so on, for all I care. Just make a tournament feel immersive as a tournament - simple formula there.

I do commend your attitude and efforts, even if I don't 100% agree with trying to give a total blueprint for a game, which in that case, could be made by anyone.

[snorkelbottom]

A small post this time round...


Henrik, when I asked for greater elaboration of peoples ideas, I used your post as an example, I was not nit-picking. Your contributions to this thread have been and still are welcomed, as are those of everyone else. I am but the instigator, moderator and gatherer of this thread.

Being fans of Unreal and Unreal Tournament we will all have ideas in regards to how we would like to see a future UT be implemented. Of course you are right that other individuals and developers/publishers will peruse this and similar forums with the intention of judging players opinions and ideas, this would of course be called "market research" in their eyes.
However, may I point out that I started this thread as a meeting place, a gathering for UT fans to discuss the future of Unreal Tournament. A place where we can gather and discuss what went wrong, where it went right, what ideas we have, what opinions we have etc. I never really intended this thread to become a community sourced blueprint for a new UT, but rather a melting pot where we can all discuss what we would like to see in a future UT.
If we can all muster every fan we know or come across we can turn this little thread into a bigger, stickied thread which eventually and inevitably will catch Epics attention. If enough of us fans come together and show that there is demand for a new UT, with well thought out and structured proposals for what we would like to see in a new UT we will become a contributing factor towards the development of a new UT. Epic have always listened to their community of fans (VCTF appearing in UT3 for example), but they will only listen if we have something intelligent to say, and if we say it loud enough.

Sly, I agree with virtually everything you have said. Regards the marketing discussion I agree, but I think we should clarify that there are two different forms of marketing.

1. Target Market - What demographic of people, what market is the game aimed at. What do these players buy and play, what do they want to play and how.
2. Marketing Campaign - How do your effectively advertise this game to its intended target audience.

[Sly.]

The target market should be the people who want something "new"/different than what is mainstream these days. Fans of the franchise, people who liked Quake, Doom and various other oldschool shooters and the advertisement should motivate people (those who have never played these games) to at least give it a try.

They should advertise it like they have done it with Bulletstorm here in Germany:

You are tired of those boring lame military shooters? *scene from Duty Calls: "I am an enemy" *standing still, player still can't hit him** *description of game* Pure action packaged in bla! *shows gameplay fragments*

Well, the problem was: I have never seen that commercial on TV, only on YouTube. German censoring ftl...
Very simple. The gameplay elements shown should not be presented like those boring military shooters but just like you usually play UT. I've often seen gameplay videos where people just walk, never jump/dodge etc..

Anyways, I think you get my idea.

[Sourpuss]

Now that Epic have seemingly learnt from their mistakes and realized what gamers want the future looks bright for a new Unreal Tournament. Of course UT will need to evolve beyond its past incarnations to be able to compete, but should never lose its core foundations. As with everything balanced moderation is needed to ensure that a future UT caters to both its hardcore fans and new gamers alike.

What makes you think that Epic Games has learned anything? The fact that UT3's user interface and server browser were a joke compared to those of UT99 and UT 2004 almost suggests that they intentionally wanted to produce a bad product. If a company can't get something that's so fundamental and straightforward as a user interface and server browser for an online multiplayer game right after they had already produced a good one (in UT99/UT 2004) there's not much hope for them.

I'll be ready to say that they've learned something when they make a UT4 that plays like UT99 but with the amount of content and polish of UT 2004 as of its last patch. Until then, as far as I'm concerned Epic is a company that makes games for consoles.

[Coreper]

Unlike some I do not pin Epic's seeming "lack of caring" on anything but the fact that as a games studio, they need to explore different things every now and then, just like any creative individual or organization does. They cannot afford to expend their time on a project that is not active, and the time where nurturing offers a sensible return at least financially has come and gone. They cannot help gamers who feel abandoned in any other capacity I'm afraid, that is the job of the gamer themself, maybe a pastor or psychologist.

A great example on how a gamestudio can ruin a great game by dropping support and updates, is the game Blur, from Bizarre Creations.
I still play that game about 3-4 times a week, for a few hours, but there are some serious flaws, which caused hundreds of players to drop out.
This includes a security hole which allowed cheating, some glitches that go agains regular physics and stuff, the lack of ingame chat, etc.
The game is f*king awesome, but the lack of support destroyed the game.
Fortunatly, a lot of different players managed to find eachother on XFire, where we meet and communicate when racing. Which makes the game a lot more fun.

I think we should talk about marketing now since this is one of the things that make a UT game successful and "great". Only if the marketing is well made and players buy the game recommend it others, start a chain and more and more people buy it, the game gets a long-time support and if it remains successful for an even longer time, it gets more updates and the community gets more involved (see CliffyB's OWNAGE maps in UT2004, the source code of Unreal 1/Unreal RTNP which was given to the oldUnreal team which develops patches these days and of course UT99 which got four bonus packs, more than any other Unreal Tournament game ever got with a bunch of content about the numbers of UT2004's maps!)

To stick to my previous example, Blur, for a bit more: that game was not marketed very well. It was marketed as an agressive form of Mario Kart (which in essence it is) and it was released at the same time as Split/Second. Both weren't even close to compareable, but were compared al the time.

To go back to UT3, it's a victim of crappy marketing aswell.
I remember when Epic showed those E3 videos with all the epic content that LOOKED like it would indeed be back to it's roots (like snorkel said), however, loads of content was removed at the time of the final release. A real shame.

What makes you think that Epic Games has learned anything? The fact that UT3's user interface and server browser were a joke compared to those of UT99 and UT 2004 almost suggests that they intentionally wanted to produce a bad product. If a company can't get something that's so fundamental and straightforward as a user interface and server browser for an online multiplayer game right after they had already produced a good one (in UT99/UT 2004) there's not much hope for them.

Haha, i couldnt say more than to agree with that. I remember everyone saying it was an interface for a racing game XD

[Sly.]

Hehe, I fully understand what you mean by that. Every game magazine here in Germany compared Split Second and Blur with each other, I tried it with a friend on his PC (both playing with controllers) and heck, that was a lot of fun!
The marketing went indeed wrong and bugs are still present (btw, the mine collision feels wrong).

How can this be applied to UT3?
Just as you said Coreper: The marketing went wrong and bugs are still present.
Most of these bugs are not really annoying and no real bugs but more issues within the maps (e.g. gettings stuck when climbing out of water, collision bugs which make dodging impossible or can even flip your Hellbender! - lack of events that were intended to be included - see Onyx Coast and think of the original UT2007 trailer when you could destroy the stone bridge to crush the Leviathan and much more!)
Anyways, fixes for exploits like the Impact Hammer Manta jump are definitely needed since they make some matches no fun.
And the continuous "Stinger is overpowered blablabla - remove!" stuff doesn't help the game either. How about nerving the Stinger instead of removing it? You're totally helpless in some situations if you do not have it. And the fact that they complain so much... I don't get it. In UT99 weapons are much stronger because every server - even your default installation's practise session match - runs with Hardcore mode (since it's set like that per default). There you had a ultra mighty Minigun, especially with U-damage, an Enforcer which took you down with 4 shots - without U-damage! -, a Shock Rifle that needed two shots to kill you, which was instagib with U-damage and a Bio Rifle which could kill you with a loaded shot even though you had a shield belt and full hp (and in most cases the Bio Rifle user suffocated in his own goo explosion). Also an instagib weapon with U-damage. And I won't even start talking about the Sniper Rifle.
And what do the players do? Complain? NO. They just play the game!
In UT3 they just complain, complain, complain, flame and ragequit. Thinking from this perspective, I think it might be partially the community's fault that there are just so few players. I also leave matches when there are only people complaining and flaming each other because that's just no fun. Usually I switch the server when there is a possibility to do that. But I can imagine that some people even left the game once and for all because they were tired of that.

And yes, next UT totally needs the U-window!

[snorkelbottom]

In terms of the marketing campaign I think that for Epic to attract new players they should follow the example of O2.

I know you're all thinking "eh, whats he on about?", so let me explain. A few years back now an advertisement started circulating on the television, with a bunch of bubbles in some water, but nothing more. As a viewer we became intrigued as to what it was, was it a new mineral water, water filter, soft drink, washing detergent etc. we didn't have a clue. These advertisements continued until we were all aching to know what the product was. Once the demand had reached fever pitch it was revealed to be a new mobile network. Other companies have also used this tactic to great effect.

Epic could use a similar tactic. The initial advertisements for a new UT could just show some extreme, high octane, kick ass action without any direct giveaways that it is in fact a new UT. These initial advertisements should ideally be short, almost like glimpses, but with no mention of the actual product. To clarify I'll give an example...

"A female combatant armed with a new weapon runs forward as rockets fly towards her sequentially from an unseen rocket launcher. As each rocket approaches her she flips, jumps off scenery and cartwheels to evade them. Closing in on the source of the rockets she pulls out a huge Stinger (which looks like a minigun, thus could be from any game) as her enemy reaches for another weapon. Up close and personal our female combatant swings the minigun downwards in an arc, gibbing her enemy to pieces."

Something like that would be all that could be shown. No name of the product, no immediate way to identify it as a new UT, no "Made By Epic Games". If we saw a series of gradually more intensive adverts such as this which gave us glimpses of the old and new features of a new UT, our expectations and wanting would reach fever pitch. Everyone would want it, what ever it is.

[Sly.]

No blood or it will not be shown in Germany. German censoring sux...
Dunno how it is in other countries, but I rarely see advertisements that show such stuff. And of course, at least one country of potential new customers less.

[Slowman]

Please read:

http://evolve-pr.com/2011/11/17/squa...ultiple-games/

no wonder epic is intusiastic about GOW triology, it sells big big big Bucks!!!

[Sly.]

Of course, I mean, why is there such a big GOW category with a bunch of subforums around the size of the UDK category?
And it's justified. I would still play that game too but I just can't afford myself to buy a console just to play the complete franchise. I played GOW1 for PC and actually liked it (even though it could have been optimized on some spots - performance-wise. Performance on PC is different than on consoles depending on the hardware). This Xbox-only move scared me off, I just don't see a reason why I should "torture" myself with just the first part (and never be able to see how it continues) and buy an extra console just to play part 2 and 3 which I (maybe) wouldn't like (especially now that UC1 and 2 are no options because they're totally dead)? Hope there will be PC versions for the 5th10th/20th anniversary of the trilogy or stuff like that so I can finally see if part 2 and 3 are as awesome as everybody says they are.

Anyways, back to topic.

Epic could use a similar tactic. The initial advertisements for a new UT could just show some extreme, high octane, kick ass action without any direct giveaways that it is in fact a new UT. These initial advertisements should ideally be short, almost like glimpses, but with no mention of the actual product. To clarify I'll give an example...

I guess that tactic wouldn't work for long.
You know too well how we UT fans work, we would recognize it by the way of movement, weaponry (even if they would choose very "normal" weapons), the looks of the armours and the fact that they would do UT-style dodges and walldodges and then people would google it and the hyped UT fans would be flooding the forums providing many search results for the curious. lol

[Slowman]

Anyone know if Epic game will hire a level editor "3rd class amature" like my self???

well I also have GOW PC, got it on sale for 20euros, ok it was 19.95euros, but I never ended the game its just not my style, you will never belive that my son did not even play it! soo what am saying is...
How the hell did it sell that meny games!? :S

[Sly.]

Not everybody has the same taste. I love the U series and Bulletstorm, but nowadays they seem to be "outsider games".
That's where the marketing comes in. If it's well made, it can make people buy the game, make it more mainstream without the need of lowering the gameplay to CoD-level.

[snorkelbottom]

Not to get peoples hopes up, but there is a rumour that People Can Fly, whom are owned by Epic Games and gave us Bulletsorm and Gears of War PC may be making a Gears of War prequel trilogy. If this is true, then it would free up Epic's schedule, possibly for a new Unreal Tournament (fingers crossed).

[Sly.]

I've read that too and I would much rather want to see a Bulletstorm 2 than a prequel to GoW because I know I won't be able to play it since it will be Xbox 360 exclusive (I bet on that). And I'm a huge BS fan... I'd also like to see a Unreal 3 though before there will be UT4. Need more single player/coop games.

And I pray the next U series game will not have paid DLC and GFWL or stuff like that. Custom content is what keeps UT3 alive, without custom content it would be as dead as Bulletstorm is now (sadly... I would really like to play more Anarchy now that I tried it and liked it but it's hard to meet people without a server browser and if you meet some, they often have no teamplay or don't know anything about the skillshots).
I hope this won't be the case with a new U game.

[Unreal4Eva]

Long live the Unreal Series! By the time I hit 90 years old, I hope the series live on

[Sly.]

Oy, I surely hope so!
What topic didn't we have yet?

The style/look.
I'm sure many people would like the original Unreal look with its colourful skies, Na Pali environments, Nali temples, Skaarj tech, rusty bases/industrial facilities, crypts, Tarydium mines, floating islands/asteroids, eastereggs like the Sunspire somewhere in the far which you can only see by taking a closer look, etc., in other words: UNREAL environments, spectacular stuff. UT3 reminded me too much of what we have nowadays (except for the few overly dark space maps), imo there is not much spectacular stuff in it and I know gameplay>style, but it gives people a first impression. I believe, this "realism" is one of the many reasons which might have been the cause of a smaller fanbase than UT2004's and UT99's playercount, its title "UNREAL Tournament" seemed to be a bit "off-topic" when you saw pictures of most maps. And although I believe that the next game should contain all three style types and environments it might be best to try to get the very first fans (reminder: still the biggest fanbase atm!) back to the series with a "back to the roots" look and just the basic gametypes which were introduced in UT99: AS, (2-4 teams T)DM/Duel, CTF, (2-4 teams)DOM. Of course this would also mean faithful remakes to make old fans feel very nostalgic, Hydrosis is a good example on how to do it. A beautiful remake of Hydro 16, a faithful remake that is worth being called a remake.

To please fans of vehicle gametypes (ONS/WAR/vCTF/vDM(?)) they could announce a bonus pack after or even a bit before its release (under the circumstance that the game is worth it), this strategy seemed to work with the DLC for the game "L.A. Noire". People bought it, the early announcement in combination with the well made marketing seemed to spark interest. With the vehicle bonus pack, they could bring back UT2004 or UT3 style in their maps, try to attract their playerbase with it, keep the game fresh for the new people by surprising them with another variety of style in its maps and finally a third bonus pack with the remaining style. This bonus pack would contain those "special" and new gametypes, Betrayal, Greed, DDOM, (4 team) Bombing Run, Conquest (rumors say it was some kind of "multi-tasking AS" (you are Defender and Attacker at once) which was scrapped from UT3's final release) and others.

What do the others think?

Sure, this idea is flawed, but with a bit "finetuning" it might be a strategy that is worth being considered. Others have mentioned this "UT4 lite with bonus packs/expansion packs" earlier and I have to say the idea has some potential.

[chonglee]

My opinions:

A) The visual/sound style

* Original (This is why I fell in love with UT in the first place.)
* Versatile and unrealistic (or surrealistic) based on "realistic" stuff (not whole environment)
* Stylish
* Colorful and dark (mentally)
* Not necessary to be the clone of UT99
* Not necessary to be visually bulky
* Dynamic and cool SFX
* Fast-paced, somewhat superhero gladiator
* Cosmos travel and fight
* Ideas based on theoretical physics (stuff like the anti-gravity jumpboots or wrapzone from UT99 blew me away back in the old days)
* Maps could be visually simple and don't have to be as detail as Crysis or BF. Put more efforts on original settings and mind-blowing level mechanism

B) Gameplay

* Plenty of options and can be configured
* Weaponary that beyond imagination
* Smooth movement system with controllable high speed range from very slow to very fast
* Movement system with more choices and easiily accessible
* First-person first (it's all about acting as a superhero)
* For fun more than for serious competitive
* Brand new game modes
* Creative level flow and mechanism that we usually don't see in any other shooters
* Cool gameplay doesn't equal oldschool, the RL, the DM... (hey I like oldschool but I prefer something new something makes UT a whole different experience but still you know it's a child from UT family)
* Brutal and lethal (with a style, of course not Gears style)

C) MOD Support

* A level editor is more than enough as long as the game itself is really fun and with many modes and options

D) The Game

* I don't care if it will be a new UT or an Unreal with multiplayer
* UT is not about storytelling, as least not something like Gears or Halo. What UT needs is cool background setting with fun and simple "singleplayer" level to level combat. Just like what Painkiller did (Imagine fighting in a Painkiller game not in the hell but in the different environments of different planets of our universe). Use some nice, stylish, and simple "story" to show the weaponary, the levels, the whole gameplay mechanism, so players can play through the singleplayer and get full understanding of how the game work and the whole atmosphere. So my point is UT is more about atmosphere than story. You fight as a gladiator, you go and you conquer.
* Well Unreal can be a blockbuster. At this point I prefer to see a new Unreal with great storytelling and some cool multiplayer which doesn't have to be another UT so it's a lot easier for EPIC to create something you'd never seen
* Other platform like console or pads could have different versions of the new UT. At least the basic control system (movement, 1st-person or 3rd-person, speed, etc.) should be redesigned to fit that platform. The console version of UT3 looked (and being played) just like a simple port from the PC version and not that fun at all.
* A new UT should be of less visual density and details (but still looks like a next-gen game with cool shaders and SFX). So save your time working on next-gen textures, mesh details, materials. And keep the game smaller but with more content of levels, modes. This way the MOD community can also be happy as they don't have to create those super detailed stuff and they can focus purely on fun

[Sly.]

Agree with you.
It doesn't have to be oldschool, that's true, but it's easier to satisfy fans with a back-to-the-roots concept and gameplay than trying to create something new but still UT-ish. So I think, it would be the best thing for Epic if they would use oldschool gameplay as a base for further changes.

Oh, and you're the maker of TheDeck2004? Kudos to you! I really like its bright, yet industrial style and little layout changes, it really added a fresh new breeze to the Deck-remake. The level of detail is also great! It's one of the "CliffyB's Ownage Maps", you should be really proud of that, it's something I will never be able to achieve... wish that "price" would still exist such as the MSUC... as a UT mapper you're really limited to show what you can do these days. UDK and Gears are now the focus... Seems like I got to late into "online mapping". *sniff*

[chonglee]

Agree with you.
It doesn't have to be oldschool, that's true, but it's easier to satisfy fans with a back-to-the-roots concept and gameplay than trying to create something new but still UT-ish. So I think, it would be the best thing for Epic if they would use oldschool gameplay as a base for further changes.

Oh, and you're the maker of TheDeck2004? Kudos to you! I really like its bright, yet industrial style and little layout changes, it really added a fresh new breeze to the Deck-remake. The level of detail is also great! It's one of the "CliffyB's Ownage Maps", you should be really proud of that, it's something I will never be able to achieve... wish that "price" would still exist such as the MSUC... as a UT mapper you're really limited to show what you can do these days. UDK and Gears are now the focus... Seems like I got to late into "online mapping". *sniff*

I don't see concept and gameplay cloning EXACTLY the old UT will work. Maybe in 30 years, but for a new UT (lets hope) in the near future targeting a big market than hardcore fans, something new is necessary. New and mind-blowing modern gameplay and visual features with UT style, that's something could make the revival of this franchise.

The deck remake was years ago and it's not that great if compared to the later custom maps. I would say it's lucky to get that ownage thing.
Yes technically UDK is way better now but it's less about level design for fast-paced shooter which means UDK is kinda "boring" to me.

[vtmbloodlines]

personally i think the next ut game needs to be as old school as possible. Not only because shooters meant to be played with pad kind of suck compared to games like ut99 but because the next game must to be a game everyone will play for years (hence it will strongly need a modding community to make or break the game). The point is calling back old fans in order to make ut4 a long lasting game and not a seasonal player investment scheme like almost all shooters out there.

[SkaarjMaster]

OK, so I guess I need to check my PMs more often. Anyway, lots of good ideas in here and I agree with most of them. Whatever the next UT game is it needs to have all the features eventually incorporated into the old UT. It also needs to be easier to edit bots and edit maps. Possibly make two levels of mapping with one level for noobs where it is fairly easy and a second level of mapping with detailed stuff for seasoned mappers. Obviously balance the weapons and have decent environments to satisfy old-skool and detail-oriented people. Should be interesting what the next one will be or even if there will be one. Until then, I think it's about time I continued with my reviews of UT3 and UT2004 maps after a long hiatus.

[Bilalogbilal]

What an awesome thread. Took me a lil over 2hours to read the entire thing, carefully and slowly. Good read for sure.

I was a couple of days ago in Middlesbrought, an event called "Animex". Important people from the gaming industry and the movie industry gathered in the teenesee university to talk to the new generation game developerts and VFX students. One of the speakers was Wyeth Johnson, working in EPIC, art designer. Was invovled in Gears of war, 1,2 and 3, and also with Unreal tournament 3. He talked much about EPIC, the way they work and so forth. When he was done speaking we had Q&A. He had earlier said that EPIC wanted to try something new, take an 180degree on the "gothic, dark, scary, big monsters and hi-tech" looks, just to test things out. So i asked him about it, cause it sounded to me as Unreal had no future if they do a 180degree jump with the graphics and looks. He replied saying that it was only for testing, i quickly added a question about unreals future, and he smiled at me and said, we are looking back at our roots and that Unreal is not dead.

Unreal will continue, most likely. After the 1hrs lecture he had about EPICs future, faults, wins and so on, Unreal is still on their mind.

[chonglee]

That's great news and I'd like to see a new looking of Unreal as long as it feels Unreal in heart.

[Menacing Wolf]

I hope Unreal Tournament comes back. Its a great system and a whole lot of fun. Spent so many hours playing 2004. I liked UT3 but I thought there really wasn't a need for the single player element of it though.