pitiful end of the road for "dream:scape".

[kamequazi]

So I have finally, after dozens of painstaking hours, accepted that my game, dream:scape, will never run on iPad 1, iPod Touch, or iPhone 3Gs.

It's a kismet/memory thing. It seems that the lesser memory devices can only run a *very* limited amount of kismet coding, which is all I know how to do. The geometry of the level runs fine when I strip out the kismet. I've tried everything--

1) I tried breaking the game into separate chapters, with only a small chunk of kismet in each. The levels crashed during map changes, especially after the second map change, and often (randomly) during the first. I am guessing that map changes cause a build-up of memory usage that eventually kills the app.

2) I tried removing all of the kismet except that used for the menu and basic introductory functions, then bringing in a small chunk of extra kismet as needed via streaming levels. This functioned fine in editor previews but made had no difference on devices-- as soon as the additional kismet is added into the level, it crashes.

SO, I am stuck with a beautiful game that the world is waiting excitedly to play that only runs on the higher-memory-capacity iPhone 4 and iPad 2-- and the question is this:

WILL iTunes allow me to sell an app ONLY for those two devices?

I fear they will not, thus dream:scape is dead, despite the hundreds of thousands of people ready to buy it.

I really do wish there had been some warning from Unreal about the extremely restrictive limits on Kismet on older devices.

[HEGI]

Usually kismet only is not heavy on memory, it depends on what you're doing. It seems like an issue with level streaming that causes the memory overhead. Just a guess. Hard to tell without knowing what the kismet actually does.

[aZzy]

There could be no warning because it has never been experienced before, however. Send and email to apple and ask for them to pause the review process. See if a team on here will be willing to code out your kismet for you so that everything works in code. Im sure people will be willing, the folks on here always help out others who have put in hard yards, hope is never lost around here..

[Kuda]

Yes you can release an app for iPhone 4 only. One example of this is, iMovie you can only download it for iPhone 4. Also there are many apps that explicitly use the gyro and face time functions. So, those apps are also iPhone 4 only.

Also, I'm just wondering how big is your kismet?

[kamequazi]

My Kismet is too big to easily post a pic of. The thing is, I NEVER ran into memory problems in iPhone 4 or iPad 2, even with all of my kismet intact. In the lesser devices, however, even if I reduce the amount of Kismet by 70%, it crashes-- not every time, but regularly. The frequency of the crashes is directly related to the AMOUNT of original Kismet left in the game, with no relation to the geometry. IN other words, the memory limitations (in regard to Kismet) between iPhone 4 and iPad 1 (etc) seem surprisingly wide-- I met no issues with iPhone 4, but can do extremely little in iPad 1 (etc).

I have posted an official request for programmers to assist in possibly rectifying this issue with a total reprogram if necessary -- http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=775478 We shall see if anyone is able to assist. Here's hoping.

[NothAU]

You could take a method Valve does with their games (Altered, slightly)

Any time you finish a chapter, in the level select page, a new chapter is unlocked. The player just has to enter it manually.
Hopefully, it will solve the crash between level changes bug

[kamequazi]

Not a bad idea, eTrust. So basically, at the completion of a level, a map change occurs, taking the user to a menu map that functions as a hub to all the maps, with unlockable options, yes? I like it, except that it does still rely on map changes, which seem to be a big part of the problem. I don't understand why map changes cause such trouble on the lesser devices. It's as if memory is not dumped when a map is switched out, but rather cumulative, leading to an inevitable crash. If so, this is a serious bug that places devastating limitations on game building.

Infinity Blade accomplishes map changes over and over. How? It is extremely obvious that I am missing some fundamental practice with dream:scape.

[ustolemygmrtag]

Can't you code a memory dump in the code between levels similar to what yo can do in Java? Code the dump, after 1 level is complete, have a menu set up like the one you were talking about in an earlier post, and then have the player physically pic the level.

Also, I would contact Apple, and ask specifically about targeted app releases. There are 1000's of app's and games that are specifically targeted toward the newer generation of iOS models. This seems to be the better of the 2 options. It will limit your market base, but for that game some people might actually upgrade equipment to play it. I personally think that this is the best solution until you find out exactly what Apple says about it. And then proceed from there.

"Never lose hope, it is sometimes all we have to get us threw."

"The difference in Winners and Losers. The Winner gets up after being knocked down, and keeps fighting."

If you need someone to help with the process, and just some Indie Morale support, let me know.

[kamequazi]

Thanks, ustolemygmrtag. I have requests in with some contacts at iTunes, asking for the option to sell dream:scape as-is specifically to iPhone 4 and iPad 2 users. If they say yes, I have the binary all packed up and ready to roll.

If they say no, I will figure out a way to pare the game down to a manageable level, even if it means losing the story element altogether (which would be a shame) and simply releasing a walk-around world (this is assuming that I cannot hook up with any viable programmers to recode the game in Unreal script).

Either way, dream:scape WILL be released. And either way, I am already conjuring the next game, using all the invaluable stuff I have learned (including the mistakes and roadblocks) from dream:scape. Onward.

[realityx]

Thanks, ustolemygmrtag. I have requests in with some contacts at iTunes, asking for the option to sell dream:scape as-is specifically to iPhone 4 and iPad 2 users. If they say yes, I have the binary all packed up and ready to roll.

If they say no, I will figure out a way to pare the game down to a manageable level, even if it means losing the story element altogether (which would be a shame) and simply releasing a walk-around world (this is assuming that I cannot hook up with any viable programmers to recode the game in Unreal script).

Either way, dream:scape WILL be released. And either way, I am already conjuring the next game, using all the invaluable stuff I have learned (including the mistakes and roadblocks) from dream:scape. Onward.

If apple does come back and says they cant just tag it for iphone4, etc. I would really look into having your kismet transferred into uscript. The last thing you want to do is pull content out of the game or just release a walking around a world app.

[kamequazi]

I hear ya, realityx. So far I haven't heard a peep regarding my post in the "looking for talent" section. I either scared everybody off with my requirements or they're all busy with they're own projects.

[ustolemygmrtag]

I know this might sound dumb, but I will ask anyway. Just remember I am still a noob at UDK.

In kismet, you can see the code for every node you pull out. Isn't this the same code in the Urealscript? I have copied some of the Kismet script out before, just to learn from. If it is the same code, then copying it out would be a little time consuming. But once you did, the Coder would only have to piece it together, so it would compile right? Just putting the methods in the correct order, and setting the relationships up correctly. I am probably wrong, but it was worth a shot.

I know it sounds really far fetched and crazy to say the least. But when you hit a wall, sometimes you must get over it anyway you can.

[kamequazi]

That seems like a perfectly plausible solution, ustolemygmrtag. My main question right now is-- will converting the code to Unreal script actually fix this problem? If Kismet is just a visual version of Unreal script, it doesn't seem like it would.

I suspect that what's happened here is that, as a noob myself, I have created a monstrous mess of my kismet coding that, while technically functional (it does everything I want it to in-game), is sort of a Frankenstein monster, with bits stapled on here and there, loads of unnecessary parts, fingers attached backwards, twelve eyes, etc. In other words, it might not be the kismet itself that is killing the lesser devices but the crazy mess of interactions I have made with it.

If that's the case, then a complete competent recoding (using my kismet version as a template) seems like the best solution.

Still, I really appreciate the suggestion. I didn't even know you could do what you described.

[aZzy]

I do believe unrealscript will solve your problem, and maybe even make your game more effectient. The difference between Kismet and UScript that you need to keep in mind, is that UScript gets called upon when it is told to.. Kismet is constantly running, waiting to see when it is needed. (Because it is connected to your world, when you world is running, so is the kismet) I hope i am explaining this so its easy to understand. This puts a lot of memory strain on the world and when statements or functions are called, it can cause too much strain on the device and result in a crash.

UScript is also a bit more stable then kismet, because if something isnt right, the compiler will yell at you, where as Kismet.. it just wont work and you have to scratch your head for hours.

Also, the beauty of UScript, is that you can modify it so easily, or even extend from a class that you have made for something slighty different, where in Kismet it would be a whole new jumble of wires and nodes etc etc.

Try converting everything to UScript, it will be really easily done if you screenshot your Kismet and write your script according to the Kismet. It works in the same way, Kismet is just visual.

Good luck with your project, it can be saved!

[kamequazi]

aZzy, are you volunteering to be my programmer? (grin!)

[aZzy]

I would love to mate, i am really sorry but i cant. I have far too much work of my own to do, with school and a course i am doing, and my iOS project.

I fear that i would not be able to offer my best quality of work to get your app up and running again, but if you have any questions please be sure to ask!

Put it in your signature that you are asking for a programmer to convert your kismet to code. I am sure it will catch the interest of someone.

Sorry mate.

[realityx]

I also would love to help out, but fear my Uscript skills are lacking, as im just staring out w/ it. Im a programmer by trade, so its just a matter of wrapping my head around how this whole jumble of stuff works.

This could prove to be a great "forced" learning opportunity for your self though =)

[kamequazi]

Ugh. I am happy that I can do almost everything else myself-- I design, write, concept, model, texture, animate, voice-act, and even create the support websites for my stuff. Coding is one thing I prefer to leave to people with much superior brains than me.

[aZzy]

Coding is rather easy if you have the ability to think outside the box and know what you want to achieve and the steps that you will have to go through to achieve it.

It will be even easier with your kismet already done and working, because it will be a guide for you. it will tell you EVERYTHING that you will need to know. You just have to turn that into script.

[killswitch80]

well im not sure why u worried about it only working on those formats..if it only worked on ipad 2 u will be golden..u my friend are going to make apple even more rich..they are looking for applications that push boundaries so they can push sales on the ipad 2..and if u was not rich before im sure u will be overnight success once it does get approved just be prepared to have your emails flooded and your phone ringing from developers because they are going to want to have a piece of u on their team..and i can also brag to my friends when u reply to this because u r going to be very well known on the ios market...there is already a huge buzz on the internet about dream:scape and im sure if apple for some reason doesnt approve it..you will be offered a huge lump sum for the rights to the game where it will get pushed onto the market by a company like gameloft but im pretty sure u r going to have a huge success on your hand...people are wondering what dream:scape is and there are very few games that display such graphics and depth as your application does

[kamequazi]

killswitch, my friend, if a tenth of what you say comes true, I will come to your house and personally make you a sandwich. I make a damn good sandwich.

[realityx]

I make a damn good sandwich.

Lol awesome!

btw any word back from apple yet?

[killswitch80]

ha ha well I love sandwiches ... if your not visited Maine then your in for a treat lol...but i have seen IGN do a short story on Dream:Scape and as far as video game websites IGN is as big as they get.

[Whiteplayer3d]

Not support for iPod Touch 4G?!!
F*cking great, fu*k Apple

[kamequazi]

At this point, that's my major issue-- dream:scape doesn't work on anything other than iPhone 4 and iPad 2.

[superzarop]

Wait doesnt the Ipad have more cpu than the iPhone 4? You could also try toning down the graphics and sound effects a bit.

[Kartel]

4th gen iPod touch?

[killswitch80]

yeah thats what im confused about ..i thought the 4th gen ipod touch is pretty much the same thing as an iphone 4

[killswitch80]

i think u should just release it as is ...and if its a success ..in a few months release a lite edition of it that can work on older models

[Pacificsun0481]

yeah thats what im confused about ..i thought the 4th gen ipod touch is pretty much the same thing as an iphone 4

No, it's not. Neither is the iPad. The only similarities are the A4 and gpu (in all three).

The iPod Touch 4 and iPhone 4 share the A4 and retina displays. The iPad 1 has the highest clocked A4, the iPod Touch 4 has a lowest clocked A4.

I can assume the reason for being iPad 2 and iPhone 4 exclusive has to do with the reason being only these 2 devices have the ram : 512

The iPad 1 and iPod Touch 4 only have 256

[Wraiyth]

No, it's not. Neither is the iPad. The only similarities are the A4 and gpu (in all three).

The iPod Touch 4 and iPhone 4 share the A4 and retina displays. The iPad 1 has the highest clocked A4, the iPod Touch 4 has a lowest clocked A4.

I can assume the reason for being iPad 2 and iPhone 4 exclusive has to do with the reason being only these 2 devices have the ram : 512

The iPad 1 and iPod Touch 4 only have 256

It also has alot to do with battery life.

[kamequazi]

Update: I did get the go-ahead from Apple to release the targeted version. WHEW. Ironically, however, I did connect with a programmer who feels confident that we can get D:S running on all relevant devices. SO, while he works on that, I am adding a few new gameplay elements. There will be a new trailer in the next week or so, and when D:S finally does get released it will be better than ever.

As always: onward!

[realityx]

Update: I did get the go-ahead from Apple to release the targeted version. WHEW. Ironically, however, I did connect with a programmer who feels confident that we can get D:S running on all relevant devices. SO, while he works on that, I am adding a few new gameplay elements. There will be a new trailer in the next week or so, and when D:S finally does get released it will be better than ever.

As always: onward!

CONGRATZ! Tobad i'll have to wait till you release the "dumb device" version =)

[Archerx]

I'm glad that Apple is being cool, but they too have a lot to gain from selling your app.

Sorry to bring this up again but how many kismet nodes were too much and with how many did it need to bring it down to not crash? I ask because I'm getting a little nervous because my game has 3,000 kismet nodes and I'm afraid that is already too much.

I know the Jazz game has like 500...

[Whiteplayer3d]

D:S running on all relevant devices
Finally on iPod Touch 4G? Please?? Please
(sorry my english is bad, sorry for all)

[killswitch80]

nice im pretty excited...kind of burnt out on angry birds

[kamequazi]

Archerx: have you tried running your game on an iPad 1n or iPhone 3GS? I am totally curious, because while I haven't counted them, I don't think I have 3000 nodes in my game. Is there a quick way to number them?

EDIT: I just checked, and I have 795 sequences in my main Kismet. There are an additional 114 in a loaded level.

[omegabluestudio]

I've been following your posts for a while dream:scape looks amazing, best of luck to you. I'm looking forward to getting your game.

[Grabby]

Hope everything turns out well... this sounds exciting and is a good showing...

[Whiteplayer3d]

Archerx: have you tried running your game on an iPad 1n or iPhone 3GS? I am totally curious, because while I haven't counted them, I don't think I have 3000 nodes in my game. Is there a quick way to number them?

EDIT: I just checked, and I have 795 sequences in my main Kismet. There are an additional 114 in a loaded level.

my english is bad, please tell me, finally work Dream: Scape on iPod Touch 4G?