The OP is in the middle of being Updated. Stay Tuned.
No flaming is allowed, the thread was closed at one point because of a few people have to ruin things for other and either go off topic or just flame someone else. Looking to have a nice discussion here. Please only make posts that actually have something to add to the discussion.
The OP will be updated periodically so anyone can see where we are at in the discussion and jump in without repeating the same points other people have said 100 times. I have organized this for Epic too so they won't have to waste their time going through over 1500 posts.
My OpinionPersonally I think it should be removed all together because it doesn’t add anything to the game. However, Epic has stated that it will be returning so I hope they tweak so it's not so overpowered. All Stopping Power does is slow down the game play, isn't Gears of War all about that constant non-stop action? To be honest, I really don't understand why some people like stopping power to begin with but I guess it has potential to be a decent idea if done right. In the end Stopping Power was just one of those things added to please the casual crowd by simplifying the game-play. Epic will obviously target the casual crowd and I guess they believe that they like it but lets be honest there's a reason Gears2 is not in the top 10 and the shotgun is still the most used weapon by far. People just love the action that the Gears of War series brings not all of the delays and restrictions. Like I said before I know it's most likely staying, as stated by Cliffy B, so I hope at the very least they lessen its power or tweak it so it's not over powered because the fact that it can bring you to a complete stop in less than a second of shooting is dumb. Why would you want your movement restricted by someone who is camping back? Sometimes it’s not even possible to push up when the other team is using teamwork, especially when they are using Hammer Bursts; one person could hold back at least two people easily if he has a good HB.What I Believe Should HappenPersonally I think Epic should just scrap the idea all together because there are no benefits coming from it. If they remove stopping power every assault rifle in Gears of War3 will have their own job and purpose, so selecting your load-out will be crucial depending on the map/your play-style. The HB would be for the more advanced players because it would be harder to master but it would have great range. The Lancer would be the all around weapon that can be used at all ranges but will work best at mid range. Then the Plancer is for close range and for those who think stopping power is needed to stop a rusher because it has a lot of strength that it could beat a shotgun player, but the gun would be very OP if stopping power stayed. However, I would also want the shotgun's spread decreased to the Gow1 spread so the shotgun isn't as strong and doesn't have as far of a range as the current shotgun. The HB should stay the same, the lancer should be at the gow1 strength/the strength of the current lancer, and the plancer should be a bit stronger than the current lancer but not too strong that it is OP.
If stopping power is brought back, which unfortunately it probably will, I hope that stopping power is put at a strength that is noticeable by a good player but doesn't completely control the pace of the game. Stopping Power should have a lot more restrictions that its' current state. There are lot of different ways to tweak it so everyone is ok with it, some examples are in the ideas for tweaking section. A faster CMS with the current stopping power might be the only thing we need but you never know, I'm not going to throw around fractions or percents because you will never know if those will work either until you try it. In order to put the lancer back in balance you will have to decrease its' power thus eliminating its' main purpose the weaker it gets. The Plancer will definitely be OP with stopping power so I'm interested to see how Epic balances that if they keep the current settings, the CMS and stopping power's power.Problems with Stopping Power
- Stopping power is a shooting crutch/aim assist. It cannot be argued. It's a shooting mechanic you have no control over, it is there to help you and do nothing else. It does not matter what skill level you are, it will be present, and it will always slow the other person down, whether you want it to or not. Epic might as well be there next to you screaming halt at the person running towards you, because that is literally what it is like. Tell me, is Epic there to hold your hand when you go to the restroom, or fill out paperwork? They might as well be at this point.
- Stopping Power slows down gameplay and to say it doesn't is downright biased and illogical. Tell me, if a person is being slowed down to a halt, is it not naturally slowing down gameplay. If a person is being forced to move slower, is it not making the game play out slower. Hey key word is all those sentences, SLOW. Come on guys, just think. That like saying, if a car moves slower, it won't get to its destination slower/later (not taking into account traffic lights, crashing and dying). It's common sense to be able to understand stopping power slows down gameplay.
- Stopping Power throws off the balance of the game. The trouble with the stopping power design is that it makes the rifles dedicated rush counters when they need to be much more than that, they need to be able to deal good damage at a distance too in order to be effective support/mid-range and pick-up spawn contesting weapons. In order for the Lancer to be balanced with stopping power and not OP like it currently is it needs to be weaker thus not being able to fulfill its’ job. As stated in the game manual, “The lancer is intended for midrange combat,” but right now it is an all purpose weapon.
- Stopping Power effect all types of movement. It is just irritating the fact that whatever you do as long as you’re getting hit with bullets you will be brought to a stop. You could be running away from someone and stopping power will still be taking effect even when they are shooting you in your back. It also effects players when they are getting hit in the side. I can’t tell you how many shotgun fights I have lost because I was getting shot just a little by someone across the map with a lancer because it brought me to a stand still as I was trying to strafe. The worst is when you are trying to roll away because you get stopped mid roll and you’re pretty much a dead man even if you are trying to roll back. It is also very bad when you’re trying to take cover or wall bounce because you slow down immensely even when the cover is two feet in front of you.
- Stopping power has also limited the tactics used in the game and made one type of play style mandatory. The game is not at an even playing field anymore. The players who like to sit back and lancer are the only ones who are benefiting from stopping power because it just makes the game too easy for them so of course they would never want it removed. With stopping power you don’t even have to play smart anymore and get positioning on the opposing players The point is now everyone is stuck having to sit back and lancer because of stopping power being ridiculously over powered. Some people just don’t find that fun, including myself. Shouldn’t every player have an equal opportunity to succeed based off their play style? In GoW1 any play style could have worked you just had to know what you were doing and play it out smart. Now the players who sit back and lancer have control over the outcome of every game. "Rushers" shouldn't be punished by Epic for choosing to rush, but instead by the people shooting them. Damage should be enough, we don't need a crutch provided by Epic to help down someone.
More to come.Arguments and Counterarguments
Arguments are in bold and quoted followed by the counterarguments.“Stopping power is needed to stop people who push with the shotgun.”
If you're a player who likes to sit back and use an AR that's fine but you don't need stopping power to do that, all you have to do is hit your shots when they charge you. If they are able to kill you, that means you are to close or just not playing smart. If you don't have enough time to put enough bullets in the enemy based on the distance between you two, then you should already have your shotgun out and ready. You just have to be smart when they get to close, the lancer is not supposed to be a close range weapon. When someone is pushing you if you are actually hitting them they should be weak when they get in your face so you can either try to get a better angle for you to hit them with the lancer more or you can just finish them with the shotgun because you know it's meant for close range. If you let someone get in your face while behind cover and they kill you, you deserve to die. Lets not punish people for rushing, lets give each side equal opportunity, and by removing stopping power and giving the lancer a damage boost to its GoW 1 status and keep the lancer CSHD, and we can achieve that. We shouldn't punish people for trying to move. Instead we should encourage movement. The lancer and hammerburst in their current state can easily punish foolish rushing, with or without stopping power. Especially if you have a teammate team firing with you. At the end of the day, the AR's in Gears are tactical weapons, thus requiring team fire and good angles. Not single handily bring a player 25 feet out to their knees just because they're trying to move across the hallway“If you remove stopping power it will just turn into a one gun game again like Gow1.”
I guess I was playing a different game because whenever I played Gears1 everyone vitalized every weapon because it was a necessity in order to win. In gears2 the use of other weapons may be a little more prevalent because most of the power weapons have become a lot easier to use and they are all over the maps now. Sure the shotgun was dominant against a team that had no clue what they were doing. It's people's fault if they want to sit back and use the AR and die to someone with a shotgun because you let them get in your face. Each weapon in Gow1 had a specific job and the lancer just wasn't the main slaying weapon. The lancer was the weapon you used to move up and gain map control and angles on the other team so you're in better position to get the power weapons.“Stopping power adds more teamwork to the game.”
You have to also remember whenever you go into a match now you're most likely with your friends or get matched with a group of friends, so of course you're going to see more teamwork because of the way matchmaking is designed now. If anything stopping power takes away teamwork because it makes it so an individual can stop players from pushing them by themselves instead of working as a team and teamfire.“Stopping Power balances the game.”
The lancer is a support weapon so of course is not going to have equal kills and downs with the shotgun but people mistake that fact with the game being balanced. It can get downs and even kills but most of the time in order to finish a team off you need to move up on them after you used the lancers to get angles and position on them. Just because the lancer isn't putting up as many numbers as a shotgun doesn't mean it's not balanced especially because they are two totally different weapons with different purposes. The lancer isn't a weapon you're supposed to be slaying with, go read the game manuals yourself. People think that stopping power is needed because it is very helpful trying to compete close range with a shotgun but you shouldn't even be trying to compete close range with a lancer. The rifles at the DPS they're at right now is fine. They're powerful in their own right, but the purpose of a AR is to support and deal damage at a distance. They can currently do that right now. No need for a damage boost.“Stopping Power has evolved the Gears of War Series”
Stopping power is not one of the great things Epic has done to evolve Gears as a game, a consistent spread on the shotgun, and improved torque bow, better movement and better host selection made Gears 2 a good game. Saying stopping power made Gears 2 evolve into a better game is like saying making NASCAR races cap at a speed limit of 100mph an hour made NASCAR evolve as a sport. Making something naturally slower does not make it evolve, and upping the damage to require little to no teamwork definitely does not make a game more tactical, in fact it makes it slow, boring and nearly unskillful. If you want a game where the rifles are the main weapons and kill rushing opponents, then go play CoD, Gears will never be like that as long it wants to be a good game and completely change itself as a tactical cover shooter.“Stopping Power makes the Game more Tactical.”
Slow Gameplay =/ Tactical. Stopping Power makes the game the exact opposite of tactical. If you want a tactical game that makes sense, remove stopping power, keep the buffed weapons, and now you have a rifle that requires team fire and communication, rather then sitting back and holding the L and R triggers. Now rushers won't be punished by Epic for choosing to rush, but instead by the people shooting them. Damage should be enough, we don't need a crutch provided by Epic to help you down someone. It would be all on you now.“Only people who don’t know how to play smart want it removed so they can just rush in with their shotguns.”
All effective shotgun rushing, whether it be around the map or in for the kill takes either aiming skill, tactical foresight or both. Truly blind rushing gets you nowhere unless the people shooting back are just as clueless. This was just as true in G1 as it is in G2. People don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that someone using their shotgun actually uses their brain too.“Removing stopping power will make the lancer useless again.”
Any weapon in any game is useless if the user doesn’t know how to effectively use it. The lancer in Gow1 was a very effective mid range weapon and it didn’t have stopping power but you had to play smart with it. The lancer isn’t a weapon that can perform at any range so you have to learn when and when not to use it. Also there are other factors that come into play that make the Gow1 lancer seem “useless” like the new hit detection and lag. The lancer in Gow1 did take some getting use to because it didn’t have the best hit detection and you had to lead your shots especially when the connection was very laggy, the net code on gow2 seems better so there is less lag."The game will turn into a shotgun fest without stopping power."
Gears is still a "shotgun fest." Stopping power doesn't change that because it doesn't address the reason why the game is this way. The Cover-system + Regen health + Rifles that wear players down = Stalemates. You have to have powerful burst damage weapons that can kill faster than people can react, or from positions were they can't cover themselves from in order for the game to actually flow. Basically you need something that counters regeneration and the cover system's defensive bias. Of course people shotgun a lot, every time a player with a rifle takes cover he creates the need for one because there are no other ways in the game to meet that that don't involve waiting it out."Without stopping power it's easier to rush forward, sponge the rifle damage, sit in cover to heal it off, then charge in and create a CQB situation in your favor to shotgun."
You have the ability to control the situation too. You could easily back up and go to teammates or get yourself into a better position. It's your fault if you let it become a close range fight because you didn't play the situation smart. Why should the players who sit back and use the lancer be given all the assistance? Not everyone finds sitting back with lancers fun so why should the player trying to push you get punished? Rushers shouldn't be punished by Epic for choosing to rush, but instead by the people shooting them. Damage should be enough, we don't need a crutch provided by Epic to help you down someone. It would be all on you now instead of having Epic give you kills because you aren't a smart player."Stopping power is realistic."
I have heard this argument go on for a while now because everyone brings it up but to be honest I don't know if it is real. From my knowledge of guns after someone shoots someone like 5-10 times they don't just start slowing down to a stop as they run in place they fall on the ground because they would be dead. So no I don't think it is very realistic but in the end why should that matter? Realism doesn't make games fun but balance does. We should be trying to get the most fun balanced game we can instead of the most realistic.How the New Weapons Come Into Play
Is stopping power really needed with these new weapons coming out? Lets pay close attention to the Plancer aka the Retro Lancer especially. The Plancer is supposed to be an Assault Rifle that is very effective at close range but its' recoil makes it so it's not the weapon of choice for mid-long range battles. The lancer right now is great all ranges because of stopping power and if stopping power stays in order to keep the lancer balanced you have to make it weaker and if it's weaker people will only really use it at between close and mid range. The lancer is designed to work at mid-long range only not close unlike the plancer, which is the complete opposite. If they keep the lancer exactly how it is now what would the point of the plancer be? The current lancer works very well at all ranges compared to the plancer, which only works well at close so people will just forget about the plancer. The lancer needs to stay strong to be effective at mid range but when there is stopping power it will be just as effective at close range. I can't see the plancer being much stronger than than the current lancer because than everyone would complain about it being very overpowered. If there wasn't any stopping power than the player will really have to think about there weapon selection at the beginning of the game because they all will have their own perks.Some Ideas for the Tweaking
-Lessen its' power
-Set it to a set speed so you're not roadie running normally and you're not brought to a complete stop when being shot, possibly the speed of when you're just normally walking
-Make only certain areas of the body cause stopping power to kick in ex. The head or just the front of your body
-Distance restriction, so if you're halfway across the map it won't effect you
-Only goes into effect on a target getting hit head onSpecial thanks to Gifted and ProfessVideosHopefully the new video I want to make comes out soon.Video 1: This video is a response to some of the users in this thread. The point is to show overpowered stopping power is in Gow2 and how you can actually lancer someone down who is blindly rushing with a shotgun without stopping power on Gow1.
Video 2: Go to 1:40 and you can just see how ridiculous stopping power is, hope people don't think this is biased because it comes straight from a ranked room.